Speculation: Caps Roster General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines/etc) | 2024-25 Summer Edition

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Rid, I think trading for Tuch is a good idea,

Just not for CMM. CMM is already more valuable of an asset.

Two or even three of Miro, Lappy, Parascak? Sure. Get it done.
 
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Equally as significant as the next 2 playoff runs after that.

Yes we could. I don't think he'd return a break-out player like McMichael though who you can pencil in for ~50-60 points straight away. If this was futures only? Yes, you could always just move him and get some futures back.

I'm not naming names. The Wilson -contract thread is still around.

No….you’ve lost sight of the prize if you don’t think Ovechkin’s last two chances aren’t more significant.

Tuch could easily be flipped again for a significant return.
 
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And this is a key point. There are the upside and downs, and little streaks and slumps that happen in a 82 game run. Young players can move up to a new level unexpectedly and quickly and there are a bunch of young players who could still step up this year - if given the playing time and roles that fit. Miroshnichenko coming back later in the season and Leonard are two that come to mind. Frank could also be a wildcard.

Trades are fun and exciting but are no guarantee of a better result.

Do the Caps lose on a lot of significant trades? My ledger shows pretty good returns from their biggest acquisitions. Especially more recently.
 
Do the Caps lose on a lot of significant trades? My ledger shows pretty good returns from their biggest acquisitions. Especially more recently.
Yes but again that's usually in response to some gaping hole in the roster, not just for the sake of making a trade and "upgrading" something that's not clearly pretty broken.

What glaring gaps does this team have? And I'm not being an ass or setting a trap here. I'm asking seriously for a neutral opinion because that's how I believe the FO sees things.
 
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Yes but again that's usually in response to some gaping hole in the roster, not just for the sake of making a trade and "upgrading" something that's not clearly pretty broken.

What glaring gaps does this team have? And I'm not being an ass or setting a trap here. I'm asking seriously for a neutral opinion because that's how I believe the FO sees things.

The 3rd line is a glaring hole IMO in terms of having a Cup worthy roster.
 
Do the Caps lose on a lot of significant trades? My ledger shows pretty good returns from their biggest acquisitions. Especially more recently.
Let's not pretend like the Caps under GMBM/GMCP haven't had their foibles. A broadly good record yes, particularly recently as you said, but a few trades come to mind:

Mantha (duh)
Kovalchuk
Dillon (solid player but not a good fit here)
Connor Brown (even without the injury I would still put this here)
Giving away Siegs/Stephenson for low returns

To g00n, I'd say 3rd line LW is pretty close to a glaring hole particularly if Mango continues to play on the Dowd line. Raddysh/Frank can likely cover RW (or Leonard? or Miro?) but LW right now is Vrana/Milano (we will see what he looks like post injury)/Lapierre (if called back up playing out of position)/Raddysh (playing on his off wing). Not ideal.
 
Let's not pretend like the Caps under GMBM/GMCP haven't had their foibles. A broadly good record yes, particularly recently as you said, but a few trades come to mind:

Mantha (duh)
Kovalchuk
Dillon (solid player but not a good fit here)
Connor Brown (even without the injury I would still put this here)
Giving away Siegs/Stephenson for low returns

To g00n, I'd say 3rd line LW is pretty close to a glaring hole particularly if Mango continues to play on the Dowd line. Raddysh/Frank can likely cover RW (or Leonard? or Miro?) but LW right now is Vrana/Milano (we will see what he looks like post injury)/Lapierre (if called back up playing out of position)/Raddysh (playing on his off wing). Not ideal.

We’re talking about Tuch-level trades…big name acquisitions. Oshie check, Dubois so far check…

Part of Mantha was dumping a horrible contract the other way.

The other trades are not on the level we’re discussing currently with Tuch or another top-6 type player.

Kovalchuk - washed, not a big trade
Brown - freak injury/not a big trade
Dillon - not a big trade
Siege/Stephenson - not big acquisition trades, simply pushed out due to roster squeezes.

Shattenkirk is the only one that comes to mind and that’s been a minute now.
 
We’re talking about Tuch-level trades…big name acquisitions. Oshie check, Dubois so far check…

Part of Mantha was dumping a horrible contract the other way.

The other trades are not on the level we’re discussing currently with Tuch or another top-6 type player.

Kovalchuk - washed, not a big trade
Brown - freak injury/not a big trade
Dillon - not a big trade
Siege/Stephenson - not big acquisition trades, simply pushed out due to roster squeezes.

Shattenkirk is the only one that comes to mind and that’s been a minute now.
I would argue that Mantha was a big trade, though you make a valid point that a big part of that trade was dumping Panik. FWIW, I also viewed the trade as Mantha for Vrana + 2nd with a separate tacked on trade of Panik + 1st for nothing. Mantha was brought in to be a core top 6 player with term.

I'll agree on Kovalchuk/Brown. Dillon I think was pretty close. We gave up 2 2nds, and he was clearly brought in to be Carlson's partner.

Caps just haven't made that many big swings, in terms of trades, in the Ovechkin era. Looking at the trade history (source: History of NHL trades by the Washington Capitals - NHL Trade Tracker), very few names stick out (particularly if you exclude rentals).
 
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What glaring gaps does this team have? And I'm not being an ass or setting a trap here. I'm asking seriously for a neutral opinion because that's how I believe the FO sees things.

None.
none glaring at least

I think MGMT will only be looking at 3LW and 3C, with a possibility for 2W rental to push down to 3rd line McMic or Willy/Pro

I think Mangia stays despite the 5.8M b/c that's basically the kind of player they want, so it's 'robbing Peter to pay Paul'; why move Mangia out when we're trying to have 2 Mangia-type's and a C for a line, it'd be pretty tough to bring in 2 players like that since we'd need 2 if Mangia goes just b/c of the 5.8M

If Frank continues to excel that could help decisions... would make Vrana/Milano more expendable, maybe a deal w/Vrana/Milano/Bear/one of the other bubble players at TDL could bring sum'n good without sacrificing any of the Top prospects
 
The issue with Tuch for me is his next contract. I mean sure, it's great for 1½ seasons. At the expense of McMichael? Not so much. He's propably the better player but chemistry issues are real and it takes time to gel with the new team.

Also re: his next contract. Wilson contract got so much shit, even around here. He signed through age 29-37. Now some of the same people who were shitting on Wilson contract want Tuch? His next contract goes through age 30-38. Yikes. Do you acquire him solely for this 1½ year span and then let him walk?
To be clear, I never shat on Wilson’s contract. Not even a little bit.

Maybe I’ve got a “grass is greener” thing going on for Tuch. But to think CMM is as good a player is just homerism. I won’t call it “blind” homerism, as it’s not that horrible. But it’s homerism for sure.

Anyway, I don’t like this draft, and a top 20 pick is worth the trade off to upgrade, IMO.

And as far as contracts go — CMM’s ends the same time as Tuch’s. Tuch’s is about 2.75m higher right now. I’d wager that spread won’t be much different on their next deals. Maybe even closer.
 
Tuch is a much better player than CMM. We can agree to disagree if you feel otherwise.

Even if this is true, and it certainly could be, you would rather have the difference between CMM and Tuch as a benefit than to just add Tuch and have both of them?

And secondly, there's better and there's more valuable. So much of what CMM did during his long hot streak clearly wasn't a fluke because it relied on doing the right things -- chemistry with linemates, knowing where to go, fighting to get there, having the ability to capitalize. You can't fake most of that shit.

This doesn't mean that McMike is a superstar or equal to or better than Tuch, but he has another restricted contract ahead of him. We could lock him in to a number similar to what Tuch's is right now. Years of bang-for-your-buck goodness. There is tremendous value in that, especially with the cap going up significantly and reliably now and in the midst of building what could be a long-lasting playoff caliber roster, with or without Ovechkin.

You simply do not jettison an asset like that unless you absolutely have to, and I don't think the difference between McMike and Tuch is so profound that it's worth giving that up. Especially not in addition to a 1st and another prospect. Madness, that.

Also, I still don't think Buffalo trades Tuch. They will try to re-sign him first which they can't do until the summer.

Exactly. Might be fun to talk about, but the only trade rumors around Tuch in the last year were purely speculative, and that speculation almost entirely comes from fans assuming that organizations that players typically don't want to play for (Ottawa, Winnipeg, Buffalo, Columbus) only exist to trade their best players away and take on bad contracts.

Buffalo's a rejuvenated sports town with Allen making the Bills such a draw, and the Sabres have accumulated some talent to build around if they can hold on to it. Tuch is a real impact player that they've got locked in to a great number for another year. If they're serious about building a winner, moving Tuch makes no sense unless he's informed them already that there's a 0% chance he re-signs there, or someone offers them a bananas deal like what Ridley's willing to give (that the Caps absolutely would not).

The issue with Tuch for me is his next contract. I mean sure, it's great for 1½ seasons.

I think we could handle extending him if the ask was in line with his actual value. He's not a superstar, and won't become one this year. If he becomes one next year, at 30? He won't get top money if he gets top term, and vice versa. If his plan is to cash in for the max no matter what, he'd be crazy not to test free agency. But if he's realistic about signing a deal he can live up to, there's potentially a really good contract to be had there.

The question for me is whether there is or should be room for another wing here, because...

If CMM is the real deal like I think both he and Protas are and Leonard will be, where does Lappy fit. Especially if Crystal, Pro Jr., Miroshnichenko, Mateiko, and Parascak actually turn out to have more potential/higher ceilings.

...of this point. It's not crazy to think Lappy can get his shit together, Miro has shown real promise in his NHL stints, Leonard is clearly an NHLer, Cristall might be, and we've got a couple others with similar potential a couple years behind. The amount of cost-controlled years we'd have ahead of us on that many guys is something we could build a little dynasty around.

Even if none of them are superstars, we'd have a window where we could afford to bring a couple in (especially with Ovi's hit to spend), dealing away the overages for additional assets as they outgrow their cheap deals and we can no longer afford them.

Now this is clearly an "If Everything Goes Right" scenario, but a lot of these guys are genuinely showing that kind of promise. Absolutely deal one or two for the right acquisitions in the meantime if you must, but don't lose sight of the big picture. The Caps could be a strong, deep organization for years to come if we play these cards right.

The 3rd line is a glaring hole IMO in terms of having a Cup worthy roster.

I agree for the most part, but I don't think it'd take a Ridley Simon deal (CMM plus a first plus another prospect) to shore up that line. A center with an offensive gear could leverage the wing talent we already have (plus Leonard) down the stretch, and an impact wing wouldn't have to cost what Tuch would. Both might be had via relatively cheap rentals at the deadline. Might be a couple guys out there with trade clauses that could be waived to join a top contender for a couple months.

In any honest, neutral assessment of this roster is there a definite gaping hole?

I really don't think so. I don't think a "gaping" hole can be easily filled. Most of what we need could be easily remedied, in my opinion. If management sees holes, I don't think they'll have to overpay at the deadline to rent solutions. Just might not be the flashy types of upgrades some appear to want.
 
None.
none glaring at least

I think MGMT will only be looking at 3LW and 3C, with a possibility for 2W rental to push down to 3rd line McMic or Willy/Pro

I think Mangia stays despite the 5.8M b/c that's basically the kind of player they want, so it's 'robbing Peter to pay Paul'; why move Mangia out when we're trying to have 2 Mangia-type's and a C for a line, it'd be pretty tough to bring in 2 players like that since we'd need 2 if Mangia goes just b/c of the 5.8M

If Frank continues to excel that could help decisions... would make Vrana/Milano more expendable, maybe a deal w/Vrana/Milano/Bear/one of the other bubble players at TDL could bring sum'n good without sacrificing any of the Top prospects


Seems reasonable.

3rd line is kind of the unicorn line and has long been a big fat ??? to most of us, but some of that may be confirmation bias. Hard to tell.

A bit easier to put together a shutdown 4th line than a swiss army knife 3rd. Ideally you have guys who can move up or down effectively in that 3rd line role.

Agree with CCR that it could be a key element in a Cup winning team. We've seen that year after year.

IMO finding just the right pieces for that, usually without breaking the bank and/or ending up with a boat anchor contract like Hagelin's, is the secret sauce. Seems to run counter to any "big splash" plans.
 
IMO, Connor McMichael is still developing and growing. And the entire notion that we are debating trading what could very possibly be a 30 goal scorer, for an upgrade, who is signed only through next year, instead of holding onto CMM, and seeing how well he can develop him kind of just hurts my brain and soul. I don't think I can stress this enough, NHL level 30 goals scorers, do not grow on trees, and one's that are competent off the puck/capable two-way forwards are even less common.

Outside Alex Ovechkin the only the one the Caps have had in the past decade is a single season of TJ Oshie.
 
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Seems reasonable.

3rd line is kind of the unicorn line and has long been a big fat ??? to most of us, but some of that may be confirmation bias. Hard to tell.

A bit easier to put together a shutdown 4th line than a swiss army knife 3rd. Ideally you have guys who can move up or down effectively in that 3rd line role.

Agree with CCR that it could be a key element in a Cup winning team. We've seen that year after year.

IMO finding just the right pieces for that, usually without breaking the bank and/or ending up with a boat anchor contract like Hagelin's, is the secret sauce. Seems to run counter to any "big splash" plans.
Dowd said something, I believe on the junkies, a month or two ago that really stuck with me. He basically said that he had never been on a team where every player was as happy with the role they have currently. That statement is a good reminder as we're talking about acquiring big pieces like Tuch, which would push someone to the 3rd line, that chemistry is a huge part of the equation.

That's one reason why a 'lesser' acquisition might make more sense beyond the asset (nuts) price. Chemistry is also a big part of why Kempny worked and Shattenkirk didn't. Edit to add: That's why I generally favor big swings in the offseason when there is more time to integrate new players unless you have a big obvious need.
 
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I don’t even know what I’m reading right now. Trade three firsts for Alex Tuch who is a power forward and will be 30 in a season and a half when his contract is up? The same Alex Tuch that plays in Buffalo? The same Alex Tuch who has never been a great defensive player and whose goals dropped nearly 40% last season from the prior season? He has one 30-goal season and two 20-goal seasons in nine seasons and he’d get no PP1 time here.

There’s a big difference between hoarding your nuts and overpaying for the sake of making a move. Trading all of these assets for a guy who realistically might be our fourth best RWer next year behind Pro, Wilson, and Leonard is wild. And, even if you’re super high on Tuch and think he’d be better than all of Leonard, Protas, and Wilson — which is highly unlikely — he gets one full season with the team before he’s gone.

If you want to go after something big, look at LW and move CMM to 3C. LW depth is much thinner than RW depth.
 
I like the Gourde idea. You can leave the top 6 as is and have the bottom six as:

Gourde-Eller-Mangi/Raddysh/Leonard
Duhaime-Dowd-Mangi/Raddysh/Leonard

I get adding another top line forward, but I’d prioritize depth first.
 
This front office has a clear pattern of responding to gaping holes in the lineup and not really shaking things up just to shake them up, or taking runs at top names just because the money is there.

In any honest, neutral assessment of this roster is there a definite gaping hole?
I am worried about scoring in the playoffs. Candidly. They have regressed towards the mean with their shooting %, and surprise!, their scoring is way down.

CMM and Strome in particular are going backwards. Protas and PLD seem to be steady, as does Chyrchrun.

Anyway, most know my feelings
 
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CMM and Strome in particular are going backwards. Protas and PLD seem to be steady, as does Chyrchrun.

Anyway, most know my feelings

It may calm your concerns to remind yourself it's a long season. Players regress and then bounce back, sometimes elevated. They are a team with great chemistry and anyone can step up and pull for each other.

Isn't CMM a brand new dad?? Lack of sleep and a wonderful life change can be a distraction. May be as simple as that and he's flying again soon.
 
Rid, I think trading for Tuch is a good idea,

Just not for CMM. CMM is already more valuable of an asset.

Two or even three of Miro, Lappy, Parascak? Sure. Get it done.
Fair enough. I am concerned that CMM is simply having a nice first 25 games, and is back to “who he is”. Very concerned.

That said, there IS time to wait and see with him. So I can buy that.

And again, for those upset w the “Tuch talk”…..we are coming into trade season, this IS the roster thread.

Refine your sensibilities, please.
 
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Even if this is true, and it certainly could be, you would rather have the difference between CMM and Tuch as a benefit than to just add Tuch and have both of them?

And secondly, there's better and there's more valuable. So much of what CMM did during his long hot streak clearly wasn't a fluke because it relied on doing the right things -- chemistry with linemates, knowing where to go, fighting to get there, having the ability to capitalize. You can't fake most of that shit.

This doesn't mean that McMike is a superstar or equal to or better than Tuch, but he has another restricted contract ahead of him. We could lock him in to a number similar to what Tuch's is right now. Years of bang-for-your-buck goodness. There is tremendous value in that, especially with the cap going up significantly and reliably now and in the midst of building what could be a long-lasting playoff caliber roster, with or without Ovechkin.

You simply do not jettison an asset like that unless you absolutely have to, and I don't think the difference between McMike and Tuch is so profound that it's worth giving that up. Especially not in addition to a 1st and another prospect. Madness, that.



Exactly. Might be fun to talk about, but the only trade rumors around Tuch in the last year were purely speculative, and that speculation almost entirely comes from fans assuming that organizations that players typically don't want to play for (Ottawa, Winnipeg, Buffalo, Columbus) only exist to trade their best players away and take on bad contracts.

Buffalo's a rejuvenated sports town with Allen making the Bills such a draw, and the Sabres have accumulated some talent to build around if they can hold on to it. Tuch is a real impact player that they've got locked in to a great number for another year. If they're serious about building a winner, moving Tuch makes no sense unless he's informed them already that there's a 0% chance he re-signs there, or someone offers them a bananas deal like what Ridley's willing to give (that the Caps absolutely would not).



I think we could handle extending him if the ask was in line with his actual value. He's not a superstar, and won't become one this year. If he becomes one next year, at 30? He won't get top money if he gets top term, and vice versa. If his plan is to cash in for the max no matter what, he'd be crazy not to test free agency. But if he's realistic about signing a deal he can live up to, there's potentially a really good contract to be had there.

The question for me is whether there is or should be room for another wing here, because...



...of this point. It's not crazy to think Lappy can get his shit together, Miro has shown real promise in his NHL stints, Leonard is clearly an NHLer, Cristall might be, and we've got a couple others with similar potential a couple years behind. The amount of cost-controlled years we'd have ahead of us on that many guys is something we could build a little dynasty around.

Even if none of them are superstars, we'd have a window where we could afford to bring a couple in (especially with Ovi's hit to spend), dealing away the overages for additional assets as they outgrow their cheap deals and we can no longer afford them.

Now this is clearly an "If Everything Goes Right" scenario, but a lot of these guys are genuinely showing that kind of promise. Absolutely deal one or two for the right acquisitions in the meantime if you must, but don't lose sight of the big picture. The Caps could be a strong, deep organization for years to come if we play these cards right.



I agree for the most part, but I don't think it'd take a Ridley Simon deal (CMM plus a first plus another prospect) to shore up that line. A center with an offensive gear could leverage the wing talent we already have (plus Leonard) down the stretch, and an impact wing wouldn't have to cost what Tuch would. Both might be had via relatively cheap rentals at the deadline. Might be a couple guys out there with trade clauses that could be waived to join a top contender for a couple months.



I really don't think so. I don't think a "gaping" hole can be easily filled. Most of what we need could be easily remedied, in my opinion. If management sees holes, I don't think they'll have to overpay at the deadline to rent solutions. Just might not be the flashy types of upgrades some appear to want.
I will simply address the bolded.

If someone like CMM is NOT a part of a deal, then the futures lost will grow. Like a lot. Like a Miro or a Cristall (which I would be fine w, Cristall) or a Mateinko or someone worse.

A late first plus a Sudzalev type isn’t going to hurt the future of this team, IMO. Obv it’s ALL a crapshoot, right?

CMM could score more points than Tuch in the next 2yrs (doubt it, but it’s certainly possible). CMM could also have seen his peak scoring, his first 16 games this year (20pts!!).

CMM has 13 pts (5g/8a) his last 28 games!!

Let that sink in. He’s at less than a 40pt pace for the last 3rd of the season. That is NOT a small sample size.
 
I am worried about scoring in the playoffs. Candidly. They have regressed towards the mean with their shooting %, and surprise!, their scoring is way down.

CMM and Strome in particular are going backwards. Protas and PLD seem to be steady, as does Chyrchrun.

Anyway, most know my feelings
Was curious about this point so I did some research (by hand so forgive me if I messed up):

I got 90 goals scored in the first 22 games and 69 scored in the more recent 22 games.

90 goals in 22 games is 4.09 goals per game
69 games in 22 games is 3.14 goals per game

Combined, the Caps are 2nd in goals per game at 3.61. First half Caps would be in first by a wide margin (Tampa sitting at 3.64). Second half Caps fall 11th between Florida (10th at 3.20) and New Jersey (11th at 3.11). Given the Caps GA (2.52, 5th best), I would say they're a contender either way, but it's a legitimate concern.
 
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