Speculation: Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2020 Offseason Pt. 3

[CapitalsCupReality]

Somewhat true too. That said, I consider 2 years as a good enough sample size to look at the options you didn't look at previously.

To be fair they woudn't be able to get out of Orpik deal so easily now. The league wasn't happy with that buyout/sign again trick Maclellan pulled off. And let's be real Orpik looked pretty bad for the most part of that deal. He looked great in the cup run, wish he played like that all 5 years he'd been with the team but you look at how he performed throughout that timeframe and you can see why people were mad at that term and cap hit.

and as I see it, those people were dead wrong. They don’t win a Cup without him.

So let me get this straight, 2 years is enough for you. So you would have fired GMBM?

 

[Melkor]

and as I see it, those people were dead wrong. They don’t win a Cup without him.

So let me get this straight, 2 years is enough for you. So you would have fired GMBM?

I don't think I could be anymore straight about what I think of him. He has to be on a hot seat. This very first year of Laviolette as a coach should decide Maclellan's fate. If they're out before the conference finals he needs to go. As for Orpik..this is very fan-esque attitude. "This guy has been a hot pile of garbage for 12 years but the 13th was the year therefore It was a great deal. BMac envisioned it". I wouldn't be surprised if Maclellan was as surprised as everyone back then at how good Orpik looked after all the years he's been getting embarrassed in the playoffs.

This is perhaps the most myopic post I've ever seen on HF... so bravo to you sir.

I don't think you've read a lot of posts then which surprises me given that you're a mod or have been one in the past. Anyways agree to disagree

 

[artilector]

I'm still ok with BMac. His moves have ended up being pretty mediocre post-Cup, but they almost always logical and he's stayed solid in one important aspect -- he hasn't handed out any real dead-whale contracts. Even this Schultz deal -- it looks bad, but it's short -- if necessary, it should be pretty easy to get out of the last year.

So BMac passes two very important criteria so far -- he understands team needs and tries to address them, and he limits his mistakes to cheap/short deals. For long term success, this is very important. Unless you know where ideal GMs grow on trees, be careful getting rid of a good one.

Most of the Caps' problems have to do with the core starting to get old and being inconsistent. I don't expect the Caps to be a real contender for the rest of the mega-contract Ovi/Backstrom era -- more of a dark horse threat. To me the main thing is to prepare the "next" core -- and the Caps seem to be doing a pretty good job of that.

 

[artilector]

I don't think I could be anymore straight about what I think of him. He has to be on a hot seat. This very first year of Laviolette as a coach should decide Maclellan's fate. If they're out before the conference finals he needs to go.

I think the odds of the Caps identifying/landing a better GM than BMac are lower than those of succeeding with him. It's a trap, buddy

 

[HTFN]

What is happening to this place, now we're on to whether or not GMBM deserves to keep his job? Unreal.

 

[Corby78]

I’m trying to decide if the “fire GMBM” discussion is better or worse than the “trade Orlov” discussion yesterday. Looking forward to the “bench TJ Oshie” debate tomorrow.

 

[Melkor]

I think the odds of the Caps identifying/landing a better GM than BMac are lower than those of succeeding with him. It's a trap, buddy

I'd take my chances and gamble though.

 

[AlexModvechkin8]

Somewhat true too. That said, I consider 2 years as a good enough sample size to look at the options you didn't look at previously.

To be fair they woudn't be able to get out of Orpik deal so easily now. The league wasn't happy with that buyout/sign again trick Maclellan pulled off. And let's be real Orpik looked pretty bad for the most part of that deal. He looked great in the cup run, wish he played like that all 5 years he'd been with the team but you look at how he performed throughout that timeframe and you can see why people were mad at that term and cap hit.

I think this is more or less nonsense. They would have been fine two years ago if Kempny (and to a lesser extent Oshie) didn't get hurt and last year was obviously an oddity. Orpik was exactly what they needed even if he had some bumps in the road at times on the ice and this team doesn't win the Cup without him. He was the third player to receive the Cup behind Ovechkin and Backstrom -- you think he didn't mean the world to that locker room? Kuznetsov had his best years playing with "Batya" who he claimed was a great influence on him.

To criticize the Orpik deal and say you wish he played like he did in the Cup run for the entirety of his contract is missing the boat. I wish Niskanen played like he did during the Cup run two years ago. I wish Burakovsky and Holtby and DSP and Stephenson all played like they did during the Cup run as well. That locker room earned the right to prove they could do it again but they didn't, so here we are and BMac is doing what he thinks is best to reload the team. He was quick to admit Rierden wasn't the right guy and he made the best possible coaching hire this offseason.

And to make sure I understand correctly, you're criticizing BMac for being so creative in adding flexibility to his roster with the Orpik move that the league had to step in while in the same breath saying two years is enough to show he doesn't have the stuff any more? Do I have that all right?

 

[Melkor]

I think this is more or less nonsense. They would have been fine two years ago if Kempny (and to a lesser extent Oshie) didn't get hurt and last year was obviously an oddity. Orpik was exactly what they needed even if he had some bumps in the road at times on the ice and this team doesn't win the Cup without him. He was the third player to receive the Cup behind Ovechkin and Backstrom -- you think he didn't mean the world to that locker room? Kuznetsov had his best years playing with "Batya" who he claimed was a great influence on him.

To criticize the Orpik deal and say you wish he played like he did in the Cup run for the entirety of his contract is missing the boat. I wish Niskanen played like he did during the Cup run two years ago. I wish Burakovsky and Holtby and DSP and Stephenson all played like they did during the Cup run as well. That locker room earned the right to prove they could do it again but they didn't, so here we are and BMac is doing what he thinks is best to reload the team. He was quick to admit Rierden wasn't the right guy and he made the best possible coaching hire this offseason.

And to make sure I understand correctly, you're criticizing BMac for being so creative in adding flexibility to his roster with the Orpik move that the league had to step in while in the same breath saying two years is enough to show he doesn't have the stuff any more? Do I have that all right?

1. They're not ready if a defenseman who's barely playing 20 minutes a night gets injured and they fall apart. Tampa lost Stamkos and won the cup. I don't wanna hear about how Kempny is a more important player than Stamkos. No, it's just that Tampa is a much deeper team.
2. What personal relationship Orpik's had with the core and how much weight his word carried in that locker room is entirely different topic. We're talking about his on ice performance and he's been brutal more often than not.
3. No, it's not the same to expect from Burakovsky to play the way he did in the cup run and from Orpik. Burakovsky was a young, inconsistent player playing for the money young, inconsistent talented player should get. Orpik was getting paid like a leader and should have played like one if not all 5 years but at least 3-4 .
4. No, you don't understand that correctly. CapitalsCupreality was making a point that getting out of that contract wasn't as difficult as people imagined. I was making a point that it was a nice trick but had someone had to get rid of that contract now and keep the player after it would've been a problem because they closed that loophole back then and now you can't do that same thing.

 

[Todd Lazarchick]

1. They're not ready if a defenseman who's barely playing 20 minutes a night gets injured and they fall apart. Tampa lost Stamkos and won the cup. I don't wanna hear about how Kempny is a more important player than Stamkos. No, it's just that Tampa is a much deeper team.
2. What personal relationship Orpik's had with the core and how much weight his word carried in that locker room is entirely different topic. We're talking about his on ice performance and he's been brutal more often than not.
3. No, it's not the same to expect from Burakovsky to play the way he did in the cup run and from Orpik. Burakovsky was a young, inconsistent player playing for the money young, inconsistent talented player should get. Orpik was getting paid like a leader and should have played like one if not all 5 years but at least 3-4 .
4. No, you don't understand that correctly. CapitalsCupreality was making a point that getting out of that contract wasn't as difficult as people imagined. I was making a point that it was a nice trick but had someone had to get rid of that contract now and keep the player after it would've been a problem because they closed that loophole back then and now you can't do that same thing.

Christ this is a fun argument lol. So your knocking GMBM because he "pulled a fast one" on the league and they made changes because of it. So you're knocking him for being smarter than others and having a way out? How dare he be smart!

Second you're knocking the Orpik deal because he didn't play up to the money he was making. So that money we could have used on who exactly? I'm not sure you remember but we DID win the cup no? Who the hell cares how much he made lol? He didn't keep us from winning the cup, doesnt prohibit us from making moves today, and didn't have to sell the farm to move him. I'm convinced you just like to complain to hear yourself speak at this point lol

 

[tenken00]

Had he gotten a player of Mcdavid caliber everyone should have had their mouths shut about him right now. In that case he would've done everything in his power and then some and all the blame should have been directed towards baldy Todd. But the best player Maclellan was able to get via trade in his entire tenure here is Oshie who is pretty good but damn..5 years ago? Give me break.

I agree with you in that GMBM shouldn't be above criticism. And there are moves that he did which I don't agree with.

But I disagree with you here. Yes, no one should be above criticism. But it's a two way street and MacLellan also deserves a lot of praise too. He's done a lot of good moves in the last 5 years and even recently.

I thought you even liked the last 2 Caps drafts.

 

[AlexModvechkin8]

1. They're not ready if a defenseman who's barely playing 20 minutes a night gets injured and they fall apart. Tampa lost Stamkos and won the cup. I don't wanna hear about how Kempny is a more important player than Stamkos. No, it's just that Tampa is a much deeper team.
2. What personal relationship Orpik's had with the core and how much weight his word carried in that locker room is entirely different topic. We're talking about his on ice performance and he's been brutal more often than not.
3. No, it's not the same to expect from Burakovsky to play the way he did in the cup run and from Orpik. Burakovsky was a young, inconsistent player playing for the money young, inconsistent talented player should get. Orpik was getting paid like a leader and should have played like one if not all 5 years but at least 3-4 .
4. No, you don't understand that correctly. CapitalsCupreality was making a point that getting out of that contract wasn't as difficult as people imagined. I was making a point that it was a nice trick but had someone had to get rid of that contract now and keep the player after it would've been a problem because they closed that loophole back then and now you can't do that same thing.

The Lightning were historically good last year and got swept in the first round. It's hard to win a Cup. And Tampa got to get the monkey off their back without the pressure of playing in front of fans, which for them was a huge boost considering how badly they'd choked the last few years. Kempny was a vital piece to the Caps. He solidified their top 4 and was a terrific partner to Carlson. Without Kempny they had to change all three pairs and it didn't work. So maybe he's not the same caliber of player as Stamkos (obvious) but he was a perfect fit for them and losing him was a huge blow.

It's not at all a different topic. This isn't NHL 2020 on XBox where personalities don't matter. The organization for a long time lacked leadership and accountability and Orpik brought it in spades. That stuff flows through to how they play on the ice. Orpik was also a big part of their PK and added a level of nastiness and physicality that the team was lacking on their backend. You don't get to pick and choose which pieces about Orpik over what time periods are useful or not useful so you can plug it in neatly into your narrative.

And how about Niskanen? Or Holtby? Were they young and inconsistent too? Or just Burakovsky? Was it BMac's fault that Holtby posted a sub .900 save percentage in half the games against the Hurricanes and gave away Game 7 when they were clearly the better team that night?

I'm not saying Mac is beyond reproach but the arguments you're making to cast him in a poor light aren't the strongest, in my opinion.

 

[StrikingDistance]

I'd take my chances and gamble though.

This logic keeps casinos thriving.

 

[Melkor]

I agree with you in that GMBM shouldn't be above criticism. And there are moves that he did which I don't agree with.

But I disagree with you here. Yes, no one should be above criticism. But it's a two way street and MacLellan also deserves a lot of praise too. He's done a lot of good moves in the last 5 years and even recently.

I thought you even liked the last 2 Caps drafts.

He's made some nice moves. I pointed that out. Like Oshie and finding Kempny was a nice one. I thought signing Williams was also a good move although didn't pan out the way everyone hoped. But there's more negatives overall than positives imo.

This logic keeps casinos thriving.

Damn I forgot I didn't mute you. Thanks for reminding.

 

[Melkor]

The Lightning were historically good last year and got swept in the first round. It's hard to win a Cup. And Tampa got to get the monkey off their back without the pressure of playing in front of fans, which for them was a huge boost considering how badly they'd choked the last few years. Kempny was a vital piece to the Caps. He solidified their top 4 and was a terrific partner to Carlson. Without Kempny they had to change all three pairs and it didn't work. So maybe he's not the same caliber of player as Stamkos (obvious) but he was a perfect fit for them and losing him was a huge blow.

It's not at all a different topic. This isn't NHL 2020 on XBox where personalities don't matter. The organization for a long time lacked leadership and accountability and Orpik brought it in spades. That stuff flows through to how they play on the ice. Orpik was also a big part of their PK and added a level of nastiness and physicality that the team was lacking on their backend. You don't get to pick and choose which pieces about Orpik over what time periods are useful or not useful so you can plug it in neatly into your narrative.

And how about Niskanen? Or Holtby? Were they young and inconsistent too? Or just Burakovsky? Was it BMac's fault that Holtby posted a sub .900 save percentage in half the games against the Hurricanes and gave away Game 7 when they were clearly the better team that night?

I'm not saying Mac is beyond reproach but the arguments you're making to cast him in a poor light aren't the strongest, in my opinion.

I get it Kempny was a great fit for them. I actually defended Kempny on numerous occasions here when people were talking like he's a 3rd pairing defenseman and Jensen is the better player. But you can't just slide into misery right after a player of his caliber falls out. You just can't if you're a really good team.
On Orpik - let's play your game. So you can pick and choose that this guy was great in the locker room and all that stuff and at the same time completely ignore that he's been absolutely terrible most of the time especially in the playoffs but I can't do it vice versa?
I didn't have much of problem with Niskanen although personally wasn't a fan of his, just wanted more offense in big games out of him. Idk why we go through personalities. Someone brought up Orpik and I went along. We're talking about just Orpik.

 

[Chokingdogs]

Orpik brutal most of his contract? Lmao. Clearly someone never clapped eyes on Jeff Schultz, Joel kiwiwhatever or Jason DOING!

 

[Ridley Simon]

What is happening to this place, now we're on to whether or not GMBM deserves to keep his job? Unreal.

It’s only one person, it seems. At least, that’s vocal about it.

Others are being highly critical.

Others are being moderately critical.

Others are being mildly critical.

Others are fully supportive (my camp)

 

[Melkor]

It’s only one person, it seems. At least, that’s vocal about it.

Others are being highly critical.

Others are being moderately critical.

Others are being mildly critical.

Others are fully supportive (my camp)

Count me in in a highly critical camp. Although i really wouldn't mind him getting fired, it wouldn't look logical right now after Ted allowed him to hire a new coach. So he has 1 year to prove he realized where an oil is leaking and fix it. Otherwise, yeah you get what I'm saying.

 

[txpd]

and as I see it, those people were dead wrong. They don’t win a Cup without him.

So let me get this straight, 2 years is enough for you. So you would have fired GMBM?

Still somewhat surprised how underappreciated Brooks Orpik was here. He changed the culture. Opposing players were afraid of him. He was a team reputation builder.

 

[Corby78]

If we are going to use Ridley's groupings, I'm in the mildly critical. Not every deal is going to work out, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a good option, or it wasn't worth a shot. Kovy for example was a very low risk high reward attempt to get the third line moving offensively. Yeah we lost a pick, but it was worth the risk to try and help a run that ended up going nowhere. Some here don't like the Hagelin deal, and I think we are paying a bit too much as well. But we desperately needed to shore up the PK and i'd rather overpay by a couple hundred thousand, then a couple million to fill a need.

So far the only deal I'm critical of is the Schultz deal. He has looked bad for two years and doesn't look like he can fit the need we are looking for at all. We are also paying 4 million in a gamble he can turn it around. He may turn out, and I hope I'm wrong. But looking at the risk/rewards of GMBM's decisions, this is the first time I really don't like the odds were facing. So yes I'm critical of this move, but by no means does that mean I'm hating on a guy that put together our greatest team, has kept us in the top of the league for a long time, and continues to try and find the right players for a coaches system.

 

[HTFN]

Count me in in a highly critical camp. Although i really wouldn't mind him getting fired, it wouldn't look logical right now after Ted allowed him to hire a new coach. So he has 1 year to prove he realized where an oil is leaking and fix it. Otherwise, yeah you get what I'm saying.

Even if that were the case, the timeline wouldn't be 1 year. He would have until Laviolette falls out of favor, at least.

and that's playing along with something I don't believe to be likely anyway.

 

[Rayquaza64]

You're correct, sir. Maclellan has done a pretty poor job last couple of years in pretty much every regard. Bad drafting, bad FA signings, been overpaying left and right on the trade market. He GOTTA be on a hot seat if you're Ted. "You won a cup, okay great, thanks for the contribution but since then you've been bad at your job". This is pretty much what Maclellan's been saying to most of the players from that cup team whom he got rid of. Not exactly these words but the message always something along those lines. We don't want you for the money you worth on the market, we would like to pay to other players. So why wouldn't Tedbe all about business too? I'm all for it. You gotta part ways in time, not when it's too late.

While my opinion on GMBM is rather mixed and disagree with the fact that he should be fired asap, and I respect your opinion that he needs to be fired, I have a question on the part i have bolded here.
Bad drafting? Id like to disagree. Outside of LuJo, he's done pretty well in the first round, and he's made some good picks outside of the first round (Fehervary, Protas)
What exactly makes his drafting so bad?

 

[Chokingdogs]

Gmbm needs to go? Another lmao. He did, basically overnight, what makfi never did here in what...13 14 years?

 

[kicksavedave]

It always amuses me when people hold others to a standard of near 100% perfection, as if 70 or 80% success on transactions is grounds for being fired. By definition, half of the GMs are above average and half are below. The one's who are above average, they hit on some percentage of their transactions, somewhere between 50% and say, 60 or 70 % of the time. The below average ones hit maybe 20-40% of the time and then get replaced. Expecting any GM to hit on 90% or better of their transactions, which seems to be this kinda defacto new standard for keeping ones job, is absurd. Any GM who hits on better than 80% of his moves, would win the Cup every year.

Finally anyone criticizing the Caps drafting the last 4-5 years is just smoking crack. Think its easy hitting home runs when you're drafting 24th every year? Its not. There may not be a TON of great prospects, but the quality at the top, considering draft position, is just fine. I'd venture to say, spend a few minutes comparing NHL games played by the Caps picks since 2014 vs other teams drafting in the 20+ range each year, it stacks up very well.

 

[bur and 666 others]

I'm fine with GMBm. He doesn't gamble much, but takes low risk high rewards which is okey with me. I think overall he's managed good under cap. Drafting could be better, but the last picks I like and if they turn alright, everyone will be praising him for it. If Samsonov turns into what he's projected, also would be a huge win for us and expanding our window significantly. Some his D have potential to become impactful. So I would say drafting is actually good, but developing might be better. Or maybe we were unlucky with injuries and not giving a chance for youngsters to play in nhl.

Also he turned this organization to a place where players want to play, see Lunquist, which is good. People respect the caps organization, he made this. He's quick to admit his faults and ready to move on which is good. Nah, I think I like him.