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[Bleach Clean]

Situation changes, letting Brock go in the middle of a playoff race is a very different situation compared to letting Brock go at free agency. Free agency is a time where teams reset and then build by getting guys through trade. Trading away guys at TDL without anything coming back is basically giving up.

JR basically came out and said we will need to convince Quinn to stay with us and that’s priority #1. It’s insane to me that you guys would hear that and say nah, that shit doesn’t matter, he’s just going to stay regardless. Like i said, you don’t FAFO with your best player.

It matters as much as it did with Pettersson saying "I want to win". He turned around and re-signed for 8 years. Did the fearmongering bear out?

You think Pettersson did that without any indication coming from Hughes as to his long-term outlook? With the same agent no less? Let's think clearly here.

You will have to prove the exceptional case of franchise players leaving their team over and above the baseline here. JR's words alone aren't going to do it.

As to Brock: So don't trade him, re-sign him. If you're going to say Brock is important to Hughes, and appeasing Hughes is paramount, then he should have been re-signed already. Unless, he's not Hughes' friend and Hughes would value a talent improvement over and above his friendship to Brock?

To the post below: So Hughes' friendship to Brock was irrelevant.

they kept Brock not because he’s Quinn’s BFF, they kept him because Quinn believed that this is a playoff team and we are in the middle of the playoff race and we are not going to downgrade the roster unless we can flip what we get back from Brock for somebody that doesn’t downgrade the rosters

Bringing this here.

Answered above.

 

[arttk]

If they dont re sign Brock to a reasonable contract or get an upgrade in free agency the deadline was a massive fail

Honestly the only thing that matters is, they improve the team before the season starts and the team makes the playoffs and win a round at the very least. The only valid excuse for not being able to do that is if we go through an injury crisis worse than this year where we have even more key players miss majority of the season.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Didn’t mgmt also say if Brock wasn’t re-signed then he would be traded at the TDL?

I think they over played their hand and got caught with their pants down.

Now if Brock walks for nothing (likely) they look pretty stupid.

There is a massive lack of talent in the Top 6.

 

[andora]

Mine was when Zadorov wasn't prioritized. Their lame effort to get "one of their own" took much too long.
They didn't show the players any respect for what they had accomplished.
Allvin destroyed the bonding the guys created and let the players down.
Players, as was argued, are humans with human emotions so they can experience disappointment too.
If anything their disappointment was much bigger than any fan's.

The space created makes up for missed playoff revenue, they saved the equivalent of 5 home games worth of sales. The first 4 home games being split income with the NHL.

What Allvin does next will solidify his reputation as incredibly stubborn or incapable of telling the coach how he wants the team to play. That is how it works, the GM sets the plan and hires a coach to execute it.

IMO this team it worked backwards and back fired.
IMO Tocchet is an old school coach, his way or the highway. That didn't work in Arizona but he had more authority because that franchise was basically owned by the NHL.
IMO Tocchet ran into a stone wall with Miller. Tocchet ordered and Miller did the FU and basically went on strike causing Allvin to scramble with a last minute team statement and Tocchet to apologize, hence the 10 min sermon on how good and nice and important and all the compliments he could think of.
How else could Allvin know the date Miller would be "alright" again?

No, to me the failure started with Allvin forcing EP to sign earlier than he wanted or had to by using those trade threats and then worse at the end of last season and I don't mean the players.

I can't blame some of them if they feel disrespected, depressed and want out, even if they are indentured/owned for years yet, like slaves, they aren't allowed to be unhappy or depressed. They are all supposed to be supermen, emotions bounce off like bullets, right?

The same zadorov that talked to lindholm about how cool it would be to play in boston

The same zadorov that got multiple offers which included term at the end

Yeah whatever

 

[arttk]

It matters as much as it did with Pettersson saying "I want to win". He turned around and re-signed for 8 years. Did the fearmongering bear out?

You think Pettersson did that without any indication coming from Hughes as to his long-term outlook? With the same agent no less? Let's think clearly here.

You will have to prove the exceptional case of franchise players leaving their team over and above the baseline here. JR's words alone aren't going to do it.

As to Brock: So don't trade him, re-sign him. If you're going to say Brock is important to Hughes, and appeasing Hughes is paramount, then he should have been re-signed already. Unless, he's not Hughes' friend and Hughes would value a talent improvement over and above his friendship Brock?

Yeah because we were literally the at the top of the division and almost the conference when he extended. Everything was super rosy last season and that changed this season. Are you honestly arguing there is no difference between last year and this year?

other players didn’t leave their team so therefore Quinn won’t is such a flimsy argument. remember how the Flames pissed off Tkachuk by not supporting him leading to him being traded?

 

[Bleach Clean]

Yeah because we were literally the at the top of the division and almost the conference when he extended. Everything was super rosy last season and that changed this season. Are you honestly arguing there is no difference between last year and this year?

other players didn’t leave their team so therefore Quinn won’t is such a flimsy argument. remember how the Flames pissed off Tkachuk by not supporting him leading to him being traded?

The majority of elite players do not leave their teams. That you have to cite Tkachuk is proof positive of this. When he moved, it was a very big deal because it was an exceptional case. It was not the rule. The same arguments then perpetuated for Pettersson. How do they look now?

If you're going to posit that Pettersson re-signed for 8 years because the team looked good last year, should we expect a trade request this offseason?

 

[arttk]

The majority of elite players do not leave their teams. That you have to cite Tkachuk is proof positive of this. When he moved, it was a very big deal because it was an exceptional case. It was not the rule. The same arguments then perpetuated for Pettersson. How do they look now?

If you're going to posit that Pettersson re-signed for 8 years because the team looked good last year, should we expect a trade request this offseason?

Yeah also majority of the teams don’t go out and piss off their star players which is exactly what the Flames did. Pulling the plug by selling when your captain is rushing back from an injury because he believes the team is in a playoff race is how you piss him off.

Petterson extended when we were at the top, when everything was as rosy as it could be. If you didn’t notice, things kinda changed since then.

I don’t expect him to ask for a trade because he knows he is a big part of the reason why things haven’t gone well this year.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Yeah also majority of the teams don’t go out and piss off their star players which is exactly what the Flames did. Pulling the plug by selling when your captain is rushing back from an injury because he believes the team is in a playoff race is how you piss him off.

Petterson extended when we were at the top, when everything was as rosy as it could be. If you didn’t notice, things kinda changed since then.

I don’t expect him to ask for a trade because he knows he is a big part of the reason why things haven’t gone well this year.

Ah, so if the team is bad but Pettersson is good during that same season, then he will ask out? Or if the team is simply a bubble team and he is middling, then? I just want to be sure about the parameters by which Pettersson will leave the team.

Re: Pissing off star players: You keep saying "sell" as if that's my position, when all I've said is "re-sign"...?

 

[Rick Rocket]

Just stop, Friedman reported we didn’t get offers, teams don’t want to pay a 1st for Brock and it’s pretty f***ing obvious why they wouldn’t.

You still don’t know whether Allvin was offered a first-round pick for Boeser and neither does Friedman. I don’t get why you’re so fixated on presenting it as fact. There’s no need to gatekeep this discussion.

 

[dbaz]

Who are Cs that willander could fetch?

Not that i want to trade him, but what else do we have to trade?

add the 2025 1st and go for mactavish.
not sure anaheim would do it with their d prospects tho.

 

[arttk]

Ah, so if the team is bad but Pettersson is good during that same season, then he will ask out? Or if the team is simply a bubble team and he is middling, then? I just want to be sure about the parameters by which Pettersson will leave the team.

Re: Pissing off star players: You keep saying "sell" as if that's my position, when all I've said is "re-sign"...?

The how matters a lot.
If we suddenly decide to rebuild tomorrow and they ship everything of value but Petey and Quinn out , yeah i am pretty sure he will ask out. if they go out and have a horrific offseason and sign like 5 jay beagles to 7 year terms with stupid AAV and f*** the team for the foreseeable future, yeah?

I don’t see extending Brock as a must, if he wants a term and AAV that sucks and won’t age well don’t do it. What happened at TDL already happened, nobody gave us what we wanted for him, yeah that sucks, but that doesn’t mean we should handcuff ourselves with a bad contract.

 

[Hodgy]

You can think that all you like.

IIRC, you were one of the posters fearmongering the Pettersson situation.

Pettersson isn’t the same as Hughes. Pettersson doesn’t have two brothers on another team with a brighter future. Bluntly applying a baseline while ignoring an extremely unique part of Hughes’ situation is dumb. With that said, it wouldn’t shock me if he re-signed or didn’t re -sign. Probably a lot will depend on how things go over the next year or two.

And I never said Pettersson wouldn’t re-sign. I doubted whether he would commit long term to a franchise that hadn’t proven to be competent - and he basically said this much. But lo and behold, he signed long term after the team was a top five team or so after 50 games or so of last season.

 

[Bleach Clean]

The how matters a lot.
If we suddenly decide to rebuild tomorrow and they ship everything of value but Petey and Quinn out , yeah i am pretty sure he will ask out. if they go out and have a horrific offseason and sign like 5 jay beagles to 7 year terms with stupid AAV and f*** the team for the foreseeable future, yeah?

I don’t see extending Brock as a must, if he wants a term and AAV that sucks and won’t age well don’t do it. What happened at TDL already happened, nobody gave us what we wanted for him, yeah that sucks, but that doesn’t mean we should handcuff ourselves with a bad contract.

I'm playing with you a bit with the questions.

The real answer is that barring wildly unforeseen circumstances, Pettersson and Hughes are here to stay. Pettersson had only been to one bubble playoffs with the Canucks prior to re-signing. He still chose to re-sign for max term (under threat of trade). He's asked again this year to stay. What flight risk does this for an already losing franchise?

The same goes for Hughes who chose to re-sign for 6 years while being on a predominately losing franchise.

What you think is a legitimate danger I think is an exceptional case. We are both looking at the same NHL history to come to our conclusions.

With Brock: This is not how good managers operate. Take care of business, either way. I'm fine with not selling Boeser for a pick, but then you have to re-sign him. They took the middle road and now they have to chase a more efficient deal while Brock has the leverage and FA upgrades stand to make far more. They failed.



Edit: @arttk I'm going through the older posts Re: Pettersson. I highly recommend you do the same. It's all there. The same arguments. The fearmongering. A few key posters gained a lot of traction in those older threads and it completely blew up in their faces when he re-signed for 8 years. Also, when he didn't re-sign after 30 games, 40 games, 45 games etc... Oh, and when he conveniently re-signed at the TDL under threat of trade... All of that poor rationale and fallacious argumentation washed away. Let's take a lesson from it. Learn from it. We don't need 'Pettersson Re-Signing Part 2' re-hashed here. Let's have some confidence about the situation. Hughes is a Canuck.

 

[theguardianII]

The same zadorov that talked to lindholm about how cool it would be to play in boston

The same zadorov that got multiple offers which included term at the end

Yeah whatever

The same Zadorov that said he old take a small discount to stay here because his wife and family loved it here so much, the same guy that later said the team waited too long to make an offer, they had months and waited until after Guentzal told them he was signing with Tampa on July 1, then came the offer on July 1 but he already had a deal with Boston. This can be looked up. Zadorov was loved by the fans, team mates and made them all 2 inches taller.
He had one offer from the Canucks, too late, why would he lie? The Canucks on the other hand would so they didn't look so imcompetent for letting a fan favorite and playoff unicorn walk for nothing when they had him already. His post season presser he stated he didn't want 5 mil, he said "you guys keep saying that, not me" to the scrum. You can find it and watch his lips move in front of his teammates.

Of course he is going to promote the team that just gave him 30 million dollars, only an idiot would disparage that team. And Lindholm was a team mate from a room where he had good chemistry. Sometimes a player hits with a group, he swung on and belted it with that group.

 

[LemonSauceD]

The baseline doesn’t apply because star players basically never have two brothers on a different team on a better trajectory.

They’ve got a decent outlook but wouldn’t outright say the Devils are on a “better trajectory” than us.

They’ve actually had far less success than us over the course of Hughes’s career. They do have an excellent core of Hughes/Bratt/Hischier/Meier/L.Hughes but they have a very mid supporting cast. Our defense is better. Our goaltending is better. Our supporting cast is significantly better. We have very similar calibre prospects around the corner. The difference is talent at the top of the forward group.

My point is we have 2/3 of our roster set. Some shrewd trades, signings, and roster juggling to address our top 6 and were easily a serious playoff team. They do that, that’s one less reason why Hughes would suddenly just bolt off to Jersey.

 

[arttk]

I'm playing with you a bit with the questions.

The real answer is that barring wildly unforeseen circumstances, Pettersson and Hughes are here to stay. Pettersson had only been to one bubble playoffs with the Canucks prior to re-signing. He still chose to re-sign for max term (under threat of trade). He's asked again this year to stay. What flight risk does this for an already losing franchise?

The same goes for Hughes who chose to re-sign for 6 years while being a predominately losing franchise.

What you think is a legitimate danger I think is an exceptional case. We are both looking at the same NHL history to come to our conclusions.

With Brock: This is not how good managers operate. Take care of business, either way. I'm fine with not selling Boeser for a pick, but then you have to re-sign him. They took the middle road and now they have to chase a more efficient deal while Brock has the leverage and FA upgrades stand to make far more than Brock. They failed.



Edit: @arttk I'm going through the older posts Re: Pettersson. I highly recommend you do the same. It's all there. The same arguments. The fearmongering. A few key posters gained a lot of traction in those older threads and it completely blew up in their faces when he re-signed for 8 years. Also, when he didn't re-sign after 30 games, 40 games, 45 games etc... Oh, and when he conveniently re-signed at the TDL under threat of trade... All of the poor rationale and fallacious arguments were washed away. Let's take a lesson from it. Learn from it. We don't need 'Pettersson Re-Signing Part 2' re-hashed here. Let's have some confidence about the situation.

You work right? You know people usually don’t leave because of one thing but because of multiple things over time.
Yeah, big events like “we rebuilding” could trigger them to want to get out, but also blowing trust here and there will also lead to that. I don’t think it’s fear mongering, it’s just living with the fact there are risks and certain actions will lead to the risk going higher. I think athletes are complex, in Petey’s case, I can understand why he wants to stay. He for whatever reason did not perform to his standard, it’s absolutely logical and not something even the player can fault management for exploring trades because of that. Team pays you 11.6M and you didn’t give that value so therefore it’s just for the team to figure out wtf to do. Also it makes total sense for Petey to want to stick around despite that especially if he is competitive because he doesn’t want to be seen as a failure and need to be shipped into be successful.

For Quinn, I see this as a, he is busting his ass to rush back from an injury that he really should not be playing through and he’s doing this because he thinks the team has a chance and it’s his responsibility as a captain to lead the team to get there. Trading Brock and Suter at that moment for futures is going to be a slap in the face for him. is that alone enough to make him to leave? Probably not, but it’s one more thing that could build up to it. Do you want to add more thing or prefer not to. The way I see it, we are probably closer to extending him now because a) he sees the team having a no quit mentality b) we are actually still pretty close despite all the injuries and craziness. C) there is trust between him and managementz D ) feels the culture is there and once folks are healthy we can get better. But If we traded away Brock and Suter, probably would’ve have killed point c and by throwing the flags, also probably prevented point A from happening and ultimately leading him to feel not as optimistic

I don’t think they have to extend Brock, at the end of the day, if we don’t extend him we get 8M to spend on other forwards. Yes the replacement might not score as much but I am guessing he will be cheaper and most likely faster considering Brock is like one of the slowest guy in the league and offer us something else.

 

[thecupismine]

Fandom has changed a lot over the years (or maybe it has just here). No one was yelling at management for not trading Linden and Naslund at the 2008 deadline - now everyone’s all angry that they didn’t throw in the towel this year.

People are obsessed with “assets” as if hockey is a stock trading simulation, and have forgotten there’s a human element to building a team that consistently plays hard and competes.

Personally, I wasn’t upset they didn’t trade Boeser/Suter away as it’s incredibly rare for a team competing for a playoff spot to do it (I think only the blues have done it in the last 7 or so years?), but each to their own.

 

[Isi]

Well it was also reported we had to give up one of Willander/Dpetey/lekk

source please

 

[Bleach Clean]

You work right? You know people usually don’t leave because of one thing but because of multiple things over time.
Yeah, big events like “we rebuilding” could trigger them to want to get out, but also blowing trust here and there will also lead to that. I don’t think it’s fear mongering, it’s just living with the fact there are risks and certain actions will lead to the risk going higher. I think athletes are complex, in Petey’s case, I can understand why he wants to stay. He for whatever reason did not perform to his standard, it’s absolutely logical and not something even the player can fault management for exploring trades because of that. Team pays you 11.6M and you didn’t give that value so therefore it’s just for the team to figure out wtf to do. Also it makes total sense for Petey to want to stick around despite that especially if he is competitive because he doesn’t want to be seen as a failure and need to be shipped into be successful.

For Quinn, I see this as a, he is busting his ass to rush back from an injury that he really should not be playing through and he’s doing this because he thinks the team has a chance and it’s his responsibility as a captain to lead the team to get there. Trading Brock and Suter at that moment for futures is going to be a slap in the face for him. is that alone enough to make him to leave? Probably not, but it’s one more thing that could build up to it. Do you want to add more thing or prefer not to. The way I see it, we are probably closer to extending him now because a) he sees the team having a no quit mentality b) we are actually still pretty close despite all the injuries and craziness. C) there is trust between him and managementz D ) feels the culture is there and once folks are healthy we can get better. But If we traded away Brock and Suter, probably would’ve have killed point c and by throwing the flags, also probably prevented point A from happening and ultimately leading him to feel not as optimistic

I don’t think they have to extend Brock, at the end of the day, if we don’t extend him we get 8M to spend on other forwards. Yes the replacement might not score as much but I am guessing he will be cheaper and most likely faster considering Brock is like one of the slowest guy in the league and offer us something else.

You are (still) supposing why Pettersson would stay or go. Why? He has re-signed for 8 years. He has conveyed he wants to stay to management. Just take it at face value. Has he said he owes management? If not, it's not pertinent.

Nothing more needs to be inferred. He's here and is doing his job to try to help the team win. That's it. It's the same with Hughes unless we learn otherwise. We don't need to make this more complex than it has to be.

Again, for the umpteenth time, I am not saying sell Boeser/Suter for futures. You are conflating arguments made against others with our argument.

My argument is that they had to extend him if they were not going to sell him. The reason is that they tried to re-sign him twice and failed. After the TDL, Allvin said they'll still try to re-sign him, but now the leverage has shifted to Boeser's side. This is why it's a failure. Even they didn't want Boeser as a rental. They just failed on all fronts and that's what he became as a result.

 

[David71]

time to find a Right handed centerman via trade. dont think any is avaliable during ufa market. slim pickings.
wishing they had two. example lines 3/4 have 2 righties to center position. win on their strong side.

2025 NHL Free Agents

Tracking the status and signings of all NHL free agents.

www.spotrac.com

 

[F A N]

I'm playing with you a bit with the questions.

The real answer is that barring wildly unforeseen circumstances, Pettersson and Hughes are here to stay. Pettersson had only been to one bubble playoffs with the Canucks prior to re-signing. He still chose to re-sign for max term (under threat of trade). He's asked again this year to stay. What flight risk does this for an already losing franchise?

The same goes for Hughes who chose to re-sign for 6 years while being on a predominately losing franchise.

What you think is a legitimate danger I think is an exceptional case. We are both looking at the same NHL history to come to our conclusions.

With Brock: This is not how good managers operate. Take care of business, either way. I'm fine with not selling Boeser for a pick, but then you have to re-sign him. They took the middle road and now they have to chase a more efficient deal while Brock has the leverage and FA upgrades stand to make far more. They failed.


Edit: @arttk I'm going through the older posts Re: Pettersson. I highly recommend you do the same. It's all there. The same arguments. The fearmongering. A few key posters gained a lot of traction in those older threads and it completely blew up in their faces when he re-signed for 8 years. Also, when he didn't re-sign after 30 games, 40 games, 45 games etc... Oh, and when he conveniently re-signed at the TDL under threat of trade... All of that poor rationale and fallacious argumentation washed away. Let's take a lesson from it. Learn from it. We don't need 'Pettersson Re-Signing Part 2' re-hashed here. Let's have some confidence about the situation. Hughes is a Canuck.

I agree with you here. I do think it's rare for a player of Hughes' calibre (especially a captain) to refuse to sign an extension.

I agree with your take on Brock. I thought they could have handled the situation a whole lot better. They could have simply said that the team was in a playoff race, Brock is an important player, and we're still looking to re-sign him. Unless there was an offer that blew us away we weren't trading him. Unless we do end up signing Boeser for something like a 5-6 year deal, Allvin's comments would be viewed as uncalled for.

As for Petey, I wasn't part of the fear mongering but I think the whole thing was odd and management and Petey were obviously not on the same page. I obviously don't know what went on behind the scenes. If it's about money I understand Petey not signing an extension before the seasons started. If it's about Miller... well that is another matter. If it was about winning, the extension could have been signed in January when the Canucks were sitting near the top of the league. Usually if you want to stay and your boss is bugging you to sign a contract extension and backing up the truck for you just have your agent work something out and you find an opportune time to sign and do a press conference. But in Petey's situation, all we were hearing is that he didn't want to talk about an extension until the end of the season. Maybe Petey being the way he is had other ideas that were unconventional and he simply didn't understand the distraction it would cause. It's kind of like a guy dating a girl for years and shutting down marriage conversations every time thinking it's not a big deal. At some point, the message received is that he doesn't really want to stay.

 

[VanJack]

Hindsight is always 20/20 as they say. But I wonder if Allvin had known where the team would be at today, he'd have dealt both Boeser and Suter at the TDL.

As it is, the Canucks aren't making the playoffs anyway, and in all probability both guys walk for nothing on July 1st.

But I suppose if they'd traded both guys and got back only 'futures' in the form of picks or prospects, the fans would probably have been in an uproar, and the players would feel let down.

I guess the safest route was treating both players as basically 'in house rentals' for the playoff drive. But sometimes GM's are in a 'no-win' situation.

 

[JT Milker]

Rumor was the Canucks actually were offered a first rounder for Boeser.....but it came too late on Trade Deadline Day, and there wasn't enough time to 'flip it" like they did with the Rangers pick.

So just getting a late first round pick for Boeser, would have been seen as the equivalent of folding their tents on the season. And given how Boeser has lit it up since the TDL passed, this would have been a pretty reasonable assumption. And probably wouldn't have sat too well with either the players or the fans.

The only way this management group could have improved the roster at the TDL, would have been trading either picks or prospects.

So I'm glad they didn't sacrifice someone like Lekkerimaki or Wilander, or even their 2025 first rounder in a vain attempt to make the playoffs. Even with additions, this lineup would probably still not have been good enough.

Hindsight is always 20/20 as they say. But I wonder if Allvin had known where the team would be at today, he'd have dealt both Boeser and Suter at the TDL.

As it is, the Canucks aren't making the playoffs anyway, and in all probability both guys walk for nothing on July 1st.

But I suppose if they'd traded both guys and got back only 'futures' in the form of picks or prospects, the fans would probably have been in an uproar, and the players would feel let down.

I guess the safest route was treating both players as basically 'in house rentals' for the playoff drive. But sometimes GM's are in a 'no-win' situation.

Thank you VanGPT.

 

[arttk]

source please

Go dig up the thread yourself