Canucks & NHL News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | Playing out the stretch.

[Jerry the great]

This is so tiring, if you guys don’t anything to support your argument, just say it. Going to hyperbole just shows you don’t have anything to stand on.
I never said they are some poverty franchise, I used them as an example because they are the team with the lowest gate rev in the league and guess what, if you don’t have gate, you can’t spend up to 115M cap which is the whole point.

It seems like you guys ( you and @credulous ) are going towards the argument that, a bunch of teams are going to spend the the cap even as it hit 115M because daddy will pay for it. If that’s your position then just say it.

I joined this discussion when it was specifically about Anaheim and the financial situation of their owner. I’m not interested in pivoting to discuss what owners’ are going to do generally. Don’t make this about something it wasn’t.

Samueli is loaded to the eyeballs is exceedingly liquid and has passive income o almost $600,000 a day. The Ducks have spent to the cap before and will again when the team is a contender. They have taken on big money contracts when players have been available via trade (Trouba) and in FA (Killorn). Their rebuild has been slow (good lesson there IMO) but I suspect they’ll exit it soon if the young core starts to gel and levels up. Perhaps this happens as soon as this summer if they go after Marner (they should IMO).

 

[credulous]

And replaced by.....?

i dunno, offer kelly mccrimmon the president role if he takes the gm role for a few years? maybe eric tulsky is sick of dealing with dundon and can be pried loose. craig heisinger? mathieu darche?

 

[credulous]

This is so tiring, if you guys don’t anything to support your argument, just say it. Going to hyperbole just shows you don’t have anything to stand on.
I never said they are some poverty franchise, I used them as an example because they are the team with the lowest gate rev in the league and guess what, if you don’t have gate, you can’t spend up to 115M cap which is the whole point.

It seems like you guys ( you and @credulous ) are going towards the argument that, a bunch of teams are going to spend the the cap even as it hit 115M because daddy will pay for it. If that’s your position then just say it.

i think the teams that are going to impose an internal cap will be the ones whose other businesses are hit bad. henry samueli owns broadcom. he'll be fine. he'll spend what it takes to be competitive

the teams that might get tight when it comes to spending are tampa, jersey, carolina (owners are all in finance and could take big hits in the unstable environment we're in), vancouver, chicago (owners are in hospitality mostly and probably aren't really billionaires) and maybe nashville (because i have no idea who herb fritch is or where his money comes from) and buffalo (because pegula is obscenely rich but also a terrible owner). i guess in theory the rangers should probably be included because dolan is a lightweight compared to most other owners but he seems to have an endless supply of money to do weird vanity shit with so...

this doesn't mean teams that aren't competitive won't impose "internal caps" but it won't be because they can't afford to spend more it'll just be because they aren't terrible business people. sports are a vanity business and billionaires are always going to be willing to throw money away if it means they can brag about how great their team is

 

[arttk]

I joined this discussion when it was specifically about Anaheim and the financial situation of their owner. I’m not interested in pivoting to discuss what owners’ are going to do generally. Don’t make this about something it wasn’t.

Samueli is loaded to the eyeballs is exceedingly liquid and has passive income o almost $600,000 a day. The Ducks have spent to the cap before and will again when the team is a contender. They have taken on big money contracts when players have been available via trade (Trouba) and in FA (Killorn). Their rebuild has been slow (good lesson there IMO) but I suspect they’ll exit it soon if the young core starts to gel and levels up. Perhaps this happens as soon as this summer if they go after Marner (they should IMO).

If you are going to jump in then go figure out what the context is. Don’t jump into an argument ignoring all context and then when i remind you what the actual f***ing context, you go ahead and ignore it.

You are still making the same argument which is rich daddy is going to pay for it. You do t need to write a paragraph to say that.

They need the big contracts to hit cap floor. If they don’t have that how the hell are they suppose to hit it? Once again, nobody is arguing they can’t spend any money, it’s about whether or not they can spend to a max of 115M when the cap gets there in like 2 years.

 

[credulous]

They need the big contracts to hit cap floor. If they don’t have that how the hell are they suppose to hit it? Once again, nobody is arguing they can’t spend any money, it’s about whether or not they can spend to a max of 115M when the cap gets there in like 2 years.

you're just making stuff up. they're 11m over the cap floor. they got trouba because they wanted the player not to make the cap floor

 

[arttk]

you're just making stuff up. they're 11m over the cap floor. they got trouba because they wanted the player not to make the cap floor

Referring to Killorn.. you do know that the Ducks started the season almost at the floor.

 

[credulous]

Referring to Killorn.. you do know that the Ducks started the season almost at the floor.

no they didn't. they started the season with fowler and dumoulin on their roster at 9.5m. they moved OUT salary over the season despite bringing in trouba

 

[arttk]

i think the teams that are going to impose an internal cap will be the ones whose other businesses are hit bad. henry samueli owns broadcom. he'll be fine. he'll spend what it takes to be competitive

the teams that might get tight when it comes to spending are tampa, jersey, carolina (owners are all in finance and could take big hits in the unstable environment we're in), vancouver, chicago (owners are in hospitality mostly and probably aren't really billionaires) and maybe nashville (because i have no idea who herb fritch is or where his money comes from) and buffalo (because pegula is obscenely rich but also a terrible owner). i guess in theory the rangers should probably be included because dolan is a lightweight compared to most other owners but he seems to have an endless supply of money to do weird vanity shit with so...

this doesn't mean teams that aren't competitive won't impose "internal caps" but it won't be because they can't afford to spend more it'll just be because they aren't terrible business people. sports are a vanity business and billionaires are always going to be willing to throw money away if it means they can brag about how great their team is

Teams are going to have an internal cap because their market is not big enough to support them.

Carolina is like a really good team and they generate like 68M in gate, same thing with Florida. Even with all the winning they aren’t really generating enough to go spend to 115M. Can the owner pay for it? Yeah. Will they? Most likely not. There is a reason why every single owner preach for sustainability.

There has not been a case where an owner just pumps money into a team every single season and allows the team to spend more than it earns.

 

[xtr3m]

And replaced by.....?

When everything fails this ownership loves bringing back a fan favourite so obviously it’s going to be Henrik Sedin.

 

[arttk]

no they didn't. they started the season with fowler and dumoulin on their roster at 9.5m. they moved OUT salary over the season despite bringing in trouba

Ok great, they spent to 72M, now you want to prove how they can afford to pay up to 115M without asking for daddy’s money?

Actually I should be clear, what they are spending now, it’s actually fine because they make enough revenue when you account for rev share to pay for it. The whole point is, at a certain cap numbers, its going to be daddy’s money and not something the team itself can pay for.

Considering you are so confident that NHL owners will dip into their own pockets so teams can go above what they can pay for. Give me some examples of owners in the NHL paying above the teams’s ability because they love winning so much. I am sure you base your opinion off reality and examples of that happening right?

 

[credulous]

Ok great, they spent to 72M, now you want to prove how they can afford to pay up to 115M without asking for daddy’s money?

the salary cap and escrow are tied to revenue. there's been very few examples of *competitive* teams being limited to an "internal cap" over the last 20 years apart from like when melnyk almost went bankrupt and when arizona was league owned and then felon owned (and maybe when merulo owned them, i don't recall). do teams sometimes not spend to the cap? yeah, all the time when they're not competitive. can you name a single example of a team that played well (say upper 3rd of the league) and spent considerably less than the cap (say 5m for argument's sake) for multiple seasons?

and please don't tell me it's different now. the last 20 years includes the 2008 global financial crisis and covid

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

i dunno, offer kelly mccrimmon the president role if he takes the gm role for a few years? maybe eric tulsky is sick of dealing with dundon and can be pried loose. craig heisinger? mathieu darche?

I doubt any hard nosed respective GM would ever entertain the idea of coming to this franchise knowing how involved the owner is. This is at best a short-term stepping stone given the "compete now" mandate.

When everything fails this ownership loves bringing back a fan favourite so obviously it’s going to be Henrik Sedin.

Ugh. Or Ryan Johnson who will be a puppet and work for peanuts.

 

[arttk]

the salary cap and escrow are tied to revenue. there's been very few examples of *competitive* teams being limited to an "internal cap" over the last 20 years apart from like when melnyk almost went bankrupt and when arizona was league owned and then felon owned (and maybe when merulo owned them, i don't recall). do teams sometimes not spend to the cap? yeah, all the time when they're not competitive. can you name a single example of a team that played well (say upper 3rd of the league) and spent considerably less than the cap (say 5m for argument's sake) for multiple seasons?

and please don't tell me it's different now. the last 20 years includes the 2008 global financial crisis and covid

Before the last nbc deal, teams had an internal cap because the TV deal was pretty crap. So that did happen.

There is a reason why there a cap floor and cap ceiling. Teams that make more can spend to the max and teams that makes less can spend less. The cap is there to prevent the richest team from overspending, it’s not really there to prevent the small teams from overspending because that typically does not happen. I mean look at the diff between the top and bottom, the top team, surprisingly is the Oilers with 380M and the bottom is CBJ at 148M AFTER revenue sharing. Just do the math, there is no f***ing way a team that generates 148M can spend 115M. Hell to spend 115M, the team needs to make at least 250M post rev sharing or they will be asking daddy/mommy for money.

Yeah the teams spent to the cap during the flat cap era but the flat cap was not there because revenue was flat, the flat cap was there because of Covid and owners had to cover the cost. Post Covid and during flat cap, revenue went way up and if we calculate the actual cap based on actual revenue, it would’ve been like way higher, that’s why it’s jumping up to 115M soon. even when it gets to 115M, it’s still going to lag behind actual revenue. Don’t let the illusion of every team spending to the cap max during flat cap fool you into thinking every team can do that moving forward.

 

[Szechwan]

I prefer "Play like Sbisa to draft Misa".

But that needed to happen earlier than now.

Misa draft Michael

Sorry, you can go back to arguing about Anaheim now.

 

[arttk]

Misa draft Michael
View attachment 1005723


Sorry, you can go back to arguing about Anaheim now.

Kill me

 

[Szechwan]

Kill me

I'm working on it

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

"Obviously, you saw that Anthony was not at the practice today. This morning, Anthony and I had a very good conversation, a very positive one, and Anthony asked me to take some time off and reflect. So, obvioulsy, I agreed to that, and we'll give him all the time that he needs."

I wouldn't be opposed to taking on Duclair but it would need to come with some asset attached or other incentive. Has a full NTC and makes 3.5m for another three seasons. He's been so inconsistent throughout his career that there's decent risk he's just dead cap. There's no physicality in his game and doesn't really bring much powerplay utility. Is a burner and when things are going right, is a potent scorer.

Ugh, he's a low calorie guy who doesn't provide anything other than speed and some dynamism if others do every piece of the work.

So he can be okay as the 3rd piece on an elite elite top line. Or generate some of his own offense from the third line, while giving up more than he generates.

But he's a Mike Hoffman, Andreas Athanasiou type. I'd steer clear for our purposes.

-

And does the rubber pants brigade really have to wishcast this "Hughes will leave and we're f***ed" stuff into existence through sheer repetition on these boards?

We're in a pretty good place.

Our D is set. We have solid to great (depending on Demko) goaltending.

And we have a top line center if Petey can find his game again, we have fantastic depth up front, and Dakota Joshua will be like a new player next year, Lekkerimaki will continue to evolve.

What we're missing isn't super hard to acquire in top 6 wingers and a second line center. In fact, of all the deficits you can have, this is one of the better ones to have.

The problem is, the UFA class isn't great. But our braintrust have identified what we need and will set out to fill it.

Even if we don't fill every need this off season, there are future off seasons to hone our path.

Everyone thinks it's tank or be the cup winner.

Most teams that have success are good to really good for long stretches, occasionally take a step back, then find another wind with much of the same core.

We're not likely to win the cup next year and that's okay. We can enjoy the process without vigorously doomcasting the worst possible scenarios.

 

[thecupismine]

Ugh, he's a low calorie guy who doesn't provide anything other than speed and some dynamism if others do every piece of the work.

So he can be okay as the 3rd piece on an elite elite top line. Or generate some of his own offense from the third line, while giving up more than he generates.

But he's a Mike Hoffman, Andreas Athanasiou type. I'd steer clear for our purposes.

-

And does the rubber pants brigade really have to wishcast this "Hughes will leave and we're f***ed" stuff into existence through sheer repetition on these boards?

We're in a pretty good place.

Our D is set. We have solid to great (depending on Demko) goaltending.

And we have a top line center if Petey can find his game again, we have fantastic depth up front, and Dakota Joshua will be like a new player next year, Lekkerimaki will continue to evolve.

What we're missing isn't super hard to acquire in top 6 wingers and a second line center. In fact, of all the deficits you can have, this is one of the better ones to have.

The problem is, the UFA class isn't great. But our braintrust have identified what we need and will set out to fill it.

Even if we don't fill every need this off season, there are future off seasons to hone our path.

Everyone thinks it's tank or be the cup winner.

Most teams that have success are good to really good for long stretches, occasionally take a step back, then find another wind with much of the same core.

We're not likely to win the cup next year and that's okay. We can enjoy the process without vigorously doomcasting the worst possible scenarios.

People also tend to forget that wingers are the cheapest, easiest players to acquire on the market.

Its why Boeser didn’t command a haul this year, Guentzel went for way less than expected last deadline, Stone in his prime went for the equivalent of Lekk + a 2nd, and a whole other host of examples. I think Rantanen might’ve been the first elite winger who commanded multiple high end assets in quite some time - usually it’s just 1st or blue chip prospect, not both.

If they go the route of finding 2 more Debrusk/Garland level players on the wings instead, history suggests the acquisition price won’t be particularly high there either.

The second line center position though will 100% be pricey, and I can see them waiting on that one with a stopgap guy in the interim. Like you said though, it’s a process to getting there, and once JT was dealt they basically conceded to pushing their window out a bit farther.

 

[David71]

Giroux!

Because he's I like him far more as a roster fit.

i like claude giroux right handed too. vancouver needs at least 1 or two.

 

[Nick Lang]

I joined this discussion when it was specifically about Anaheim and the financial situation of their owner. I’m not interested in pivoting to discuss what owners’ are going to do generally. Don’t make this about something it wasn’t.

Samueli is loaded to the eyeballs is exceedingly liquid and has passive income o almost $600,000 a day. The Ducks have spent to the cap before and will again when the team is a contender. They have taken on big money contracts when players have been available via trade (Trouba) and in FA (Killorn). Their rebuild has been slow (good lesson there IMO) but I suspect they’ll exit it soon if the young core starts to gel and levels up. Perhaps this happens as soon as this summer if they go after Marner (they should IMO).

I find if hilarious that anyone would argue this. Most teams spend to the cap if they're in a competitive cycle. It's a business cost that generates a lot of revenue.

 

[theguardianII]

A variation of thoughts, that is good, thinking beyond NOW or just tomorrow.

The cap will make trading for the really good prospects or young players much more harder, expensive and change the concept of "losing" in a trade.

Before the last nbc deal, teams had an internal cap because the TV deal was pretty crap. So that did happen

I wonder if Rogers just bought a cup or two in Canada?Maybe a few more cup appearances, so far it about every 5 years each Canadian team gets a single shot.

Everyone thinks it's tank or be the cup winner.

There is no need to tank, it would help if it is only one year but one single very bold trade next year could make tanking totally unnecessary.

Most teams that have success are good to really good for long stretches, occasionally take a step back, then find another wind with much of the same core.

Tampa, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Vancouver has the bottom of the line up for a quick drop for new core star forwards, 2 or 3 of them maybe.

The second line center position though will 100% be pricey, and I can see them waiting on that one with a stopgap guy in the interim. Like you said though, it’s a process to getting there, and once JT was dealt they basically conceded to pushing their window out a bit farther.

With Pettersson's play it is maybe a 1rst and 2nd line center, just about all his points are from the PP, pucks going in off his arse or legs, very few shots, even assists are mostly 2nds, give it to Hughes, let him skate around for 10 seconds he shoots and someone tips or puts in a rebound.

That could change for Pettersson with a different coach though just like it did when they hired Bruce and he turned it around and had his best 16 months of his career.

But if Tocchet is still here then he is playing like a very good 3rd line center.

 

[Ernie]

Ugh, he's a low calorie guy who doesn't provide anything other than speed and some dynamism if others do every piece of the work.

So he can be okay as the 3rd piece on an elite elite top line. Or generate some of his own offense from the third line, while giving up more than he generates.

But he's a Mike Hoffman, Andreas Athanasiou type. I'd steer clear for our purposes.

-

And does the rubber pants brigade really have to wishcast this "Hughes will leave and we're f***ed" stuff into existence through sheer repetition on these boards?

We're in a pretty good place.

Our D is set. We have solid to great (depending on Demko) goaltending.

And we have a top line center if Petey can find his game again, we have fantastic depth up front, and Dakota Joshua will be like a new player next year, Lekkerimaki will continue to evolve.

What we're missing isn't super hard to acquire in top 6 wingers and a second line center. In fact, of all the deficits you can have, this is one of the better ones to have.

The problem is, the UFA class isn't great. But our braintrust have identified what we need and will set out to fill it.

Even if we don't fill every need this off season, there are future off seasons to hone our path.

Everyone thinks it's tank or be the cup winner.

Most teams that have success are good to really good for long stretches, occasionally take a step back, then find another wind with much of the same core.

We're not likely to win the cup next year and that's okay. We can enjoy the process without vigorously doomcasting the worst possible scenarios.

I agree with everything you said but this organization had a brutal year on and off the ice after having an extraordinary year last year. I don't think anyone arguing that we should be tanking should be taken seriously, but at the same time the blank cheque this leadership had at the end of last season is gone.

The mistakes the made last offseason with the defence has cost this team the playoffs. You could possibly chalk up all the in-season drama as something outside of their control but this team should still have had enough juice. All the red flags going into the season were apparent but they were given the benefit of the doubt. They got lucky with being able to plug some holes with young players but also paid a high cost to bring in Markus Pettersson.

If the organization doesn't make better choices over the next year the doomsday predictions will come true. This team is at an inflection point.

 

[beachcomber]

These guys that want to trade DPetey, Mancini and Willander are nuts. Not going to happen. If anything it will be Mynio or Kuds going out the door. I think Mynio is the real deal though.

 

[Vector]

Tocchet

• Friedman had made a comment where he said that he can’t see a situation where the Canucks force Tocchet to coach under his option
• Canucks are not happy around the noise of Tocchet and Philadelphia
• Canucks have made their displeasure clear to the league and, potentially, to the Flyers themselves
• Canucks’ season is not over and have some contractual rights and want those to be respected
• Still thinks the Canucks want to be extended
• If he’s coaching next year, it will be in Vancouver whether that is under the option or an extension
• Can’t trade compensation for coaches anymore
• Another manager wonders if this situation leads to the end of coaching options
• Thinks everyone has their backs up a bit but everything is solvable
• Three conversations to be had 1) contract 2) state of the team and 3) if this season has been too draining
• Canucks recent coaches have been paid in the high 2m and Tocchet will be higher than that and doesn’t know if the Canucks are comfortable going higher
• Someone told Friedman that he’s pounded Vancouver all season; when he reported on Tocchet, it was like the 9th time he was on them
• Tocchet has said all the right things but the noise with the Flyers pissed off the Canucks a little bit

Canucks’ Needs

• Have talked about getting a centre but they are hard to find

 

[Jerry the great]

I find if hilarious that anyone would argue this. Most teams spend to the cap if they're in a competitive cycle. It's a business cost that generates a lot of revenue.

agreed, just look at the Florida teams.