Canucks & NHL News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | Playing out the stretch.

[arttk]

@arttk I’m sorry, but I need to respond to this.

I find it absolutely wild that people actually believe that Brock could not get a first, or Suter could not get a second rounder when the market was as open as it was.

When you see guys like Beauvillier, get good draft picks, you know that any sort of “leaking” or just statements about value are completely false.

Not to mention retaining 50% of Brock’s contract as well, you’re telling me that no one was interested?

And especially Suter who can literally play every position, and has scored at a great pace this year?

I call bullshit.

There already is an established history of ownership getting involved to make the playoffs, not to mention Rick has stated multiple times that ownership refuses to do a rebuild, and even this year, Rick said they were planning to keep Brock passed the deadline to use as a rental, why do you think that is?

Everybody knew we had a tough to make the playoffs, and everybody knows the chances of us winning The Stanley Cup is nonexistent this season, that’s just being realistic.

My assumption on what happened is ownership said listen we’re not gonna trade him directly for a first, unless you can flip him for a player immediately, or we are just keeping him and hope we make it.

So the market they were shopping and was completely different, because ownership had no interest in taking that draft pick, and using it as draft capital for trades in the off-season.

That’s my thought process, especially with all the injuries.

And I’m all up for a discussion, as long as it’s respectful

if somone is willing to pay 100k for something, it doesn't mean they are willing to pay 1million for something else. It's really as simple as that. Teams willing to pay a 2nd doesn't mean they are willing to pay a 1st.

Also why wouldn't teams want to pay a 1st? Because this draft is suppose to be super weak and shallow and odds of getting a NHL player outside the 1st is much lower than previous drafts. So it makes total sense that teams want to hold on to the 1st because eery other round is borderline worthless.

 

[Canucks LB]

if somone is willing to pay 100k for something, it doesn't mean they are willing to pay 1million for something else. It's really as simple as that. Teams willing to pay a 2nd doesn't mean they are willing to pay a 1st.

Also why wouldn't teams want to pay a 1st? Because this draft is suppose to be super weak and shallow and odds of getting a NHL player outside the 1st is much lower than previous drafts. So it makes total sense that teams want to hold on to the 1st because eery other round is borderline worthless.

Alright, so why did suter not get dealt then, who is on paper one of the easiest trade moving pieces, considering everything he brings.

 

[Vector]

Do you think Carolina is content with just making the playoffs and winning a round every year?

They won’t admit it, but that’s a lot of playoff revenue.

Every move they've made so far has shown that's the case. They've made two big moves (Guentzel and Rantanen) and immediately gave up on Rantanen. Didn't really improve their roster in any other way either.

 

[JT Milker]

That’s funny timing lol

Ya changing coaches again would not be ideal.

 

[pitseleh]

With the season almost done, what do we think of the Canucks’ work in Free Agency last year?

Excellent:
Kiefer Sherwood
Kevin Lankinen

I categorize these two as excellent as both well exceeded the expectations that came with their contracts. Sherwood looks like a guy who could conceivably play in the top six, and has provided roughly 20-goal, 40-point production while being the NHL hits leader for a steal of $1.5m. Lankinen was one of the best bargain bin acquisitions of the summer, even if some of the shine has come off in the last few weeks. The Canucks’ season could have been sunk a lot sooner than it was if not for his efforts at league minimum.

Good:
Jake DeBrusk
Derek Forbort

Both these players came in and gave us exactly what they were advertised to do. DeBrusk has provided top six production, granted in streaks, while Forbort has been one of the best penalty killers in the league. The only reason I don’t have these guys higher is to at I would say they each met the expectations of their deal rather than exceeding them. Obviously we hoped DeBrusk could be a bit more consistent, but he still provides fair value for his contract. Forbort I only have down in this category because he had a very tough start to the season, though a lot of that was for understandable reasons.

Mediocre:
Danton Heinen

I didn’t have as much against Heinen as some did. He wasn’t a liability, he chipped in offensively here and there, and he was a decent defensive player. But he was very vanilla, and it’s tough to argue he wasn’t massively improved upon by replacing him with O’Connor. For a guy we hoped could be another Pius Suter for us, it just didn’t work out.

Poor:
Vincent Desharnais
Daniel Sprong

I have these guys here for two different reasons. Sprong is here largely as a head scratching “why did we bother” moment. It seemed clear before he even came here that he and Tocchet wouldn’t be a fit, and then we cut him loose after only 9 games. With all the injuries to our key guys, we could have used someone with his offensive ability beyond that.

Desharnais just didn’t work out at all. For such a big man, he played with very little snarl, and frequently got burned with speed and exposed in his own end. The Canucks were hoping for a poor man’s Zadorov with him (as was I), and it just didn’t happen.

I agree with all of this except for DeBrusk. I’d put him in the mediocre category.

His per 60 even strength production is worse than Heinen’s this year despite his most common linemates being Pettersson, Boeser and Hughes. His individual shot generation and possession numbers are down to career lows, and a drop off in even strength production is masked by the fact he is likely going to run the most ice time and highest on-ice SH% of his career by season’s end.

He’s added value as a goal scorer on the PP, but for the price they’re paying for him you’d hope he’d be more of a play driver, either generating more individual scoring chance creation by himself or driving possession better.

 

[Canucks LB]

I agree with all of this except for DeBrusk. I’d put him in the mediocre category.

His per 60 even strength production is worse than Heinen’s this year despite his most common linemates being Pettersson, Boeser and Hughes. His individual shot generation and possession numbers are down to career lows, and a drop off in even strength production is masked by the fact he is likely going to run the most ice time and on-ice SH% of his career by season’s end.

He’s added value as a goal scorer on the PP, but for the price they’re paying for him you’d hope he’d be more of a play driver, either generating more individual scoring chance creation by himself or driving possession better.

Debrusk reminds me a ton of JVR.
His bread and butter is in front of the net, tipping shots, using his strength, dictating positions.

But outside of that, he’s kind of just there, I’ve always thought he was more of a physical player, but he really does have a knack and a talent at shooting the puck, and finishing in front of the net.

 

[StreetHawk]

Every move they've made so far has shown that's the case. They've made two big moves (Guentzel and Rantanen) and immediately gave up on Rantanen. Didn't really improve their roster in any other way either.

Last season was their big shot with Pesce and Skjei on the roster. They swapped out Necas and Drury for Stankoven. They aha e even consistently good. But are they going to make a big push? They are locked into playing NJ in Rd it seems. Can beat them especially with Hughes a question mark.

Some markets and owners just prefer to be consistent rather than Edm sure the lows of rebuilding.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

Debrusk reminds me a ton of JVR.
His bread and butter is in front of the net, tipping shots, using his strength, dictating positions.

But outside of that, he’s kind of just there, I’ve always thought he was more of a physical player, but he really does have a knack and a talent at shooting the puck, and finishing in front of the net.

The Canucks scouts probably thought he could take a Hyman-like leap on our team, especially when it seemed like we had an established top 6 group anchored with Pettersson and Miller. This is a player that really frustrated the Bruins because he would really show brief glimpses of breaking out, especially against the Leafs in the playoffs...but would turn into a pumpkin and seemingly had little chemistry with Pastrnak and Bergeron. Ironically, he enjoyed success with Coyle and Marchand but it was brief.

 

[Ernie]

I agree with all of this except for DeBrusk. I’d put him in the mediocre category.

His per 60 even strength production is worse than Heinen’s this year despite his most common linemates being Pettersson, Boeser and Hughes. His individual shot generation and possession numbers are down to career lows, and a drop off in even strength production is masked by the fact he is likely going to run the most ice time and on-ice SH% of his career by season’s end.

He’s added value as a goal scorer on the PP, but for the price they’re paying for him you’d hope he’d be more of a play driver, either generating more individual scoring chance creation by himself or driving possession better.

I don't necessarily disagree but all the numbers you cited line up virtually the same as Boeser's (except Boeser has even more of an unsustainable SH%). Weren't you advocating for re-signing him a short while ago?

If you want this type of player, $5.5m is decent value.

Personally, I don't see a lot of difference between these "mushy middle" wingers and I think you can plug in players for both of them for lower salary that will replicate most of their 5v5 production. If you can improve some speed and physicality along the way, even better.

 

[iFan]

I’m not sure coaching is the problem here… we have no offensive forwards and when we did, we had a weak D. Management needs to do a better job filling out the roster. We also need grittier players who are tough to play against. The roster they’re giving Tocchet doesn’t match up with the way he what’s the team to play.

 

[brock hughes007]

I agree with all of this except for DeBrusk. I’d put him in the mediocre category.

His per 60 even strength production is worse than Heinen’s this year despite his most common linemates being Pettersson, Boeser and Hughes. His individual shot generation and possession numbers are down to career lows, and a drop off in even strength production is masked by the fact he is likely going to run the most ice time and on-ice SH% of his career by season’s end.

He’s added value as a goal scorer on the PP, but for the price they’re paying for him you’d hope he’d be more of a play driver, either generating more individual scoring chance creation by himself or driving possession better.

He was a plan b option after the Canucks trying to sign Guentzel. I have no idea as to why they wanted this guy to begin with.
A streaky goal scorer that does not drive the play..we already had one of those in Boeser.They need to do a hell of a lot better next season.

 

[credulous]

I mean this became obvious when Rantanen got traded twice, with one return being Stankoven and two late 1sts in distant years. Why would a contender like Carolina want late 1sts and then not subsequently deal them while they are in the middle of their contention window?

it's because carolina is playing a different game than everyone else (except maybe vegas who seem to be doing the same thing but to a lesser extreme). they aren't interested in doing a typical contender -> rebuilder -> contender cycle. they want to be a strong team every single season and only ever really make deals that make sense in the short term and the long term

 

[arttk]

Alright, so why did suter not get dealt then, who is on paper one of the easiest trade moving pieces, considering everything he brings.

The reason why we were able to sign Suter to a 1.5Mx2 contract tis the same reason why teams aren't fighting to trade for him. He is like the most undervalued dude around because he exhibits none of the obvious traits team wants, size, speed and FO%.

 

[Ernie]

He was a plan b option after the Canucks trying to sign Guentzel. I have no idea as to why they wanted this guy to begin with.
A streaky goal scorer that does not drive the play..we already had one of those in Boeser.They need to do a hell of a lot better next season.

He was supposed to be a shooter for Pettersson. It's clear that Pettersson needs to be the shooter for Pettersson, and under Tocchet's system he needs puck retrievers. Garland and Hoglander were his best linemates this season.

 

[Ernie]

The reason why we were able to sign Suter to a 1.5Mx2 contract tis the same reason why teams aren't fighting to trade for him. He is like the most undervalued dude around because he exhibits none of the obvious traits team wants, size, speed and FO%.

He plays like a 3rd line center and a top 6 winger with PP utility. That's a useful player to have and the Canucks should be trying to re-sign him.

 

[Canucker]

The reason why we were able to sign Suter to a 1.5Mx2 contract tis the same reason why teams aren't fighting to trade for him. He is like the most undervalued dude around because he exhibits none of the obvious traits team wants, size, speed and FO%.

And he's a Canuck...its an automatic value killer.

 

[arttk]

He plays like a 3rd line center and a top 6 winger with PP utility. That's a useful player to have and the Canucks should be trying to re-sign him.

Agreed, we should be extending him as long as the ask is not crazy. Keeping Suter at like 3-4M >>>>>> getting a 2nd rounder for him.

 

[arttk]

And he's a Canuck...its an automatic value killer.

so sad but so true

 

[arttk]

Do you think Carolina is content with just making the playoffs and winning a round every year?

They won’t admit it, but that’s a lot of playoff revenue.

their whole business strategy is to stay at the same level they are now which is a lock to make the playoffs and to do it in a way where they don't take risks that will lead to them having to do a rebuild. It makes complete sense because they are in a non hockey market and they need to be in the playoffs every single year to sustain interest in the team and any rebuild would tank fandom.

 

[Jerry the great]

it's because carolina is playing a different game than everyone else (except maybe vegas who seem to be doing the same thing but to a lesser extreme). they aren't interested in doing a typical contender -> rebuilder -> contender cycle. they want to be a strong team every single season and only ever really make deals that make sense in the short term and the long term

Colour me unconvinced their in-season work made any sense in the short term.

 

[arttk]

Colour me unconvinced their in-season work made any sense in the short term.

they took a risk to get Rantanen thinking they could extend him and once they realized they couldn't, they traded him for futures because the risk of losing Rantanen and the asset they spent >>>>>> the potential of winning a cup.

 

[supercanuck]

Canucks’ Playoff Chances

• Canucks and Flames are really far back on the tie breakers with the Blues and the Wild; can’t just tie these teams in points but need to beat them

Tocchet

• Thinks the Canucks have made Tocchet a contract offer and he he didn’t accept it
• Believes there is a bigger conversation than does Tocchet want to stay
• One conversation is about “where are we going”, “what do we agree about on our roster”, “what do we disagree about on our roster”, and “what’s our process from here on in”
• Second conversation is about his option; can’t see the Canucks forcing Tocchet to coach under the team option
• Extending Tocchet will cost more than they’ve been willing to pay a coach in quite some time
• Doesn’t know when they will sit down and discuss extension talks because, even though the odds are against them, Tocchet doesn’t want to talk about it while there is still a chance

This is very interesting. I feel like management has gone out and gotten him many Tocc-style players. The outlier would be Sprong, and maybe Brannstrom? Those guys, along with Kuz, were dumped in relatively short order as well. Maybe it was just managements request to open up the offence and Tocc things that change ruined the season?

 

[pitseleh]

I don't necessarily disagree but all the numbers you cited line up virtually the same as Boeser's (except Boeser has even more of an unsustainable SH%). Weren't you advocating for re-signing him a short while ago?

If you want this type of player, $5.5m is decent value.

Personally, I don't see a lot of difference between these "mushy middle" wingers and I think you can plug in players for both of them for lower salary that will replicate most of their 5v5 production. If you can improve some speed and physicality along the way, even better.

Before I didn’t think the team should re-sign Boeser, but I could see why they would rather than putting all of their eggs into the basket of finding an upgrade in the offseason.

That was before the January trades and subsequent re-signings. Now I think they have to risk finding an upgrade because they basically have one shot up front to spend money on.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

And he's a Canuck...its an automatic value killer.

Yeah but then people would have to stay up to 1am doing their job.

Signed,

A totally not bitter shift worker.

 

[Jerry the great]

they took a risk to get Rantanen thinking they could extend him and once they realized they couldn't, they traded him for futures because the risk of losing Rantanen and the asset they spent >>>>>> the potential of winning a cup.

so? they massively downgraded their current roster heading into the playoffs. I understand cutting bait when they did...it might work out in the long term, but it didn't do them any good in the short term. I think they tried to pivot at the deadline and couldn't get other deals across the finish line (probably because they were too busy pinching pennies).