Canucks Managerial Discussion | Part 18

[Verviticus]

also note that benning hitting a bunch of home runs in the draft is not actually exclusive with my opinions on him or the draft - you could hit a bunch of home runs exclusively drafting with a CSS list. it is an extremely random process

 

[MS]

There really wasn't an argument there. More of an observation. You, MS, Y2k, all knowledgable posters with some good things to say, some which I agree with.....but you have gone so far in your criticism of Benning and everything about the guy, there isn't a whole lot of room to come back on board with any level of credibility if Benning ends up having a good run as GM and putting together a good Canuck squad.

I have my doubts about the guy, but I try to chill a bit, give him more than 2 years to turn around the mess, yes mess, he was hired to fix. You could be right though maybe he will end up being as dumb as you say.

There is nothing wrong with evaluating as you go. Same as any player.

If Benning has two terrible years and then 3 great years, he'll get credit for what he did on balance. Until then, all we have is failure and bad moves ... so he'll be criticized.

 

[y2kcanucks]

There really wasn't an argument there. More of an observation. You, MS, Y2k, all knowledgable posters with some good things to say, some which I agree with.....but you have gone so far in your criticism of Benning and everything about the guy, there isn't a whole lot of room to come back on board with any level of credibility if Benning ends up having a good run as GM and putting together a good Canuck squad.

I have my doubts about the guy, but I try to chill a bit, give him more than 2 years to turn around the mess, yes mess, he was hired to fix. You could be right though maybe he will end up being as dumb as you say.

Because we know bad management when we see it. I'm not going to support Benning like some Oilers fans supported Lowe. I'm not going to support Benning like some Islanders fans supported Milbury. He's an idiot GM and I literally disagree with 95% of what he's done.

 

[Cupless44]

also note that benning hitting a bunch of home runs in the draft is not actually exclusive with my opinions on him or the draft - you could hit a bunch of home runs exclusively drafting with a CSS list. it is an extremely random process

Yet no one in 46 year Canuck history has been able to draft well, consistently. If Benning is the first, after decades of watching it I for one, will give him credit.

 

[Verviticus]

Yet no one in 46 year Canuck history has been able to draft well, consistently. If Benning is the first, after decades of watching it I for one, will give him credit.

its not really a consistent process, like, there's a lot of inherent randomness involved and very, very small samples. most gms get what like 10 high value picks (or less!). a +/-1 hit there is a huge swing

i'd give credit to benning if he acquired a ton of picks and used that process to acquire young talent through the draft. thats the smart way to go. thinking you can outsmart all of the other scouting teams seems unreliable

 

[Canucker]

There really wasn't an argument there. More of an observation. You, MS, Y2k, all knowledgable posters with some good things to say, some which I agree with.....but you have gone so far in your criticism of Benning and everything about the guy, there isn't a whole lot of room to come back on board with any level of credibility if Benning ends up having a good run as GM and putting together a good Canuck squad.

I have my doubts about the guy, but I try to chill a bit, give him more than 2 years to turn around the mess, yes mess, he was hired to fix. You could be right though maybe he will end up being as dumb as you say.

At this point you'd hope to see improvements, evaluating and choosing under age talent is a good skill to have but his trades, his contract negotiating and pro scouting have all been pretty underwhelming, to downright terrible. If he was hired to "fix" a mess he's gone a very peculiar way of trying to correct it.

 

[Cupless44]

Because we know bad management when we see it. I'm not going to support Benning like some Oilers fans supported Lowe. I'm not going to support Benning like some Islanders fans supported Milbury. He's an idiot GM and I literally disagree with 95% of what he's done.

All the power to you! You are entitled to your opinion and I do love your passion. But after calling the guy Milbury if he actually becomes successful it will be kind of lame to hear " happy to be wrong about Benning, I'm a Canuck fan after all"

Just saying.

 

[God]

I have my doubts about the guy, but I try to chill a bit, give him more than 2 years to turn around the mess, yes mess, he was hired to fix. You could be right though maybe he will end up being as dumb as you say.

Benning has jettisoned two top 6 defensemen (Garrison, Bieksa) and is about to lose a third to free agency. With nothing to show for it. He's made the mess even bigger. Like a child.

 

[y2kcanucks]

All the power to you! You are entitled to your opinion and I do love your passion. But after calling the guy Milbury if he actually becomes successful it will be kind of lame to hear " happy to be wrong about Benning, I'm a Canuck fan after all"

Just saying.

And when he continues to decimate this franchise beyond repair it'll be lame to hear "well that's just confirmation bias" or "no need for I told ya so's."

 

[Ryp37]

All the power to you! You are entitled to your opinion and I do love your passion. But after calling the guy Milbury if he actually becomes successful it will be kind of lame to hear " happy to be wrong about Benning, I'm a Canuck fan after all"

Just saying.

It is a mystery how someone like Delorme managed to stay as head scout let alone employed from 2000-2012 or whatever it was

Actually he's still listed as chief amateur scout

 

[Cupless44]

At this point you'd hope to see improvements, evaluating and choosing under age talent is a good skill to have but his trades, his contract negotiating and pro scouting have all been pretty underwhelming, to downright terrible. If he was hired to "fix" a mess he's gone a very peculiar way of trying to correct it.

No question, I have no problem with that assessment after 2 years. I would not be grading him an A right now either. But I also don't think he has "destroyed" the team and things can change quickly with some good moves.

What doesn't happen quickly is building a prospect system and waiting for new draft picks to be ready after a franchise has been at the bottoms of the league in drafting for a decade.

 

[Cupless44]

Benning has jettisoned two top 6 defensemen (Garrison, Bieksa) and is about to lose a third to free agency. With nothing to show for it. He's made the mess even bigger. Like a child.

You think 35 year old Bieksa was a top D for us? He was dreadful his last season here.

Just like Lack was a top young goalie as good as Talbot and Jones when he was moved.

I have no problem with a 2nd for Garrison either.

Benning has not brought in good players, has lost some minor trades, but nothing he has moved are exactly world beaters.

When he got here, 2011 was over guys, the team had won a single playoff game in 3 years while being humbled. It was over. It was stale. Some bodies had to be moved. You can't keep the old core together forever.

 

[Ryp37]

You think 35 year old Bieksa was a top D for us? He was dreadful his last season here.

Just like Lack was a top young goalie as good as Talbot and Jones when he was moved.

I have no problem with a 2nd for Garrison either.

Benning has not brought in good players, has lost some minor trades, but nothing he has moved are exactly world beaters.

When he got here, 2011 was over guys, the team had won a single playoff game in 3 years while being humbled. It was over. It was stale. Some bodies had to be moved. You can't keep the old core together forever.

Yes they did, but the only value he got back was Bieksa who had quite a few teams lining up for his service

Several D on par with Garrison have gotten more than just a 2nd since everyone mentions what a hot commodity D-men are these days

 

[Verviticus]

All the power to you! You are entitled to your opinion and I do love your passion. But after calling the guy Milbury if he actually becomes successful it will be kind of lame to hear " happy to be wrong about Benning, I'm a Canuck fan after all"

Just saying.

oh, I hate the guy. I'm cheering for his failure. but I'll admit fault if the time comes

if this conflicts with a previous "I hope I'm wrong", consider this my official opinion now

 

[Canucker]

No question, I have no problem with that assessment after 2 years. I would not be grading him an A right now either. But I also don't think he has "destroyed" the team and things can change quickly with some good moves.

What doesn't happen quickly is building a prospect system and waiting for new draft picks to be ready after a franchise has been at the bottoms of the league in drafting for a decade.

I don't disagree on the whole, because the team isn't completely "destroyed" in its current form...I think its not far from it though. We do have some promising pieces to look forward to (hopefully)...but right now this is a very difficult team to like, not love, but to even just "like"...the coaching is highly suspect, the defense is uninspiring, the forwards don't generate a lot of excitement on the whole...the only thing that saved us was the solid play of Markstrom (and Miller to a far lesser degree). So the team isn't completely destroyed, but my confidence in virtually everything surrounding this team (other than several prospects) is.

 

[Nick Lang]

At this point you'd hope to see improvements, evaluating and choosing under age talent is a good skill to have but his trades, his contract negotiating and pro scouting have all been pretty underwhelming, to downright terrible. If he was hired to "fix" a mess he's gone a very peculiar way of trying to correct it.

Seems very reasonable to me. Jettisoning old stale contracts as quickly as possible while getting younger with a couple stop gaps with an eye on the future. If next year is an utter mess with no hope I will start to have my doubts but not before. No use fretting needlessly.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Seems very reasonable to me. Jettisoning old stale contracts as quickly as possible while getting younger with a couple stop gaps with an eye on the future. If next year is an utter mess with no hope I will start to have my doubts but not before. No use fretting needlessly.

Right. Jason Garrison who's a top 4 defenseman on a team that went to the SCF last year, and is in the ECF this year, was an old stale contract. We're much better off with Sbisa, statistically one of the worst dmen in the NHL.

 

[Canucker]

Seems very reasonable to me. Jettisoning old stale contracts as quickly as possible while getting younger with a couple stop gaps with an eye on the future. If next year is an utter mess with no hope I will start to have my doubts but not before. No use fretting needlessly.

I think after the kind of season we had last year, I don't believe any sort of "fretting" could be deemed needless....especially if he continues to make questionable trades and signings.

 

[Hit the post]

You think 35 year old Bieksa was a top D for us? He was dreadful his last season here.

Just like Lack was a top young goalie as good as Talbot and Jones when he was moved.

I have no problem with a 2nd for Garrison either.

Benning has not brought in good players, has lost some minor trades, but nothing he has moved are exactly world beaters.

When he got here, 2011 was over guys, the team had won a single playoff game in 3 years while being humbled. It was over. It was stale. Some bodies had to be moved. You can't keep the old core together forever.

That was NEVER the problem (heck, I don't even have a problem with Benning using the 2nd to get Vey either EVEN NOW). It was replacing Garrison's cap hit for Pizza. THAT was the problem. Again, I don't have a problem with the acquisition of Pizza in the first place (everyone makes mistakes). It's 'doubling-down' with that contract on a nothing special #6 left side D that is the problem (when he had NO REASON to do so).

 

[Cupless44]

I don't disagree on the whole, because the team isn't completely "destroyed" in its current form...I think its not far from it though. We do have some promising pieces to look forward to (hopefully)...but right now this is a very difficult team to like, not love, but to even just "like"...the coaching is highly suspect, the defense is uninspiring, the forwards don't generate a lot of excitement on the whole...the only thing that saved us was the solid play of Markstrom (and Miller to a far lesser degree). So the team isn't completely destroyed, but my confidence in virtually everything surrounding this team (other than several prospects) is.

You are right, this team is hard to like.

But I hated it before Benning got here. I hated how stale and how soft this team was. I hated going 1-8 in the playoffs while being manhandled. I hated being ragdolled by the big teams in the West for years. I hated watching the likes of Higgy on the 2nd line because we couldn't nail a top 6 forward in the draft to save our lives. I hated the league wide embarrassment of the goaltending soap opera. I hated that our so called #1 defenceman has so many brain cramps. I hated that we were biting guys fingers or that our top players face was speed bagged and no one lifted a finger to stop it.


The ONLY thing I like or even watch for now is Horvat, Hutton, Virtanen, McCann, Tryamkin, Beartschi, Pedan etc. So if Banning can add to Boeser and Demko, and draft a few more I can forgive the odd Dorsett or Sbisa on the edge of the roster and give him a couple more years.

I have always said this summer is crucial for him in my eyes. If if he makes more goofy moves, I think you guys will be proven right.

 

[Nick Lang]

I think after the kind of season we had last year, I don't believe any sort of "fretting" could be deemed needless....especially if he continues to make questionable trades and signings.

Ah whatever, we were supposed to suck for awhile after the last 10 years and such. Fully expected for me.

Right. Jason Garrison who's a top 4 defenseman on a team that went to the SCF last year, and is in the ECF this year, was an old stale contract. We're much better off with Sbisa, statistically one of the worst dmen in the NHL.

Well I agree there to some degree. Keeping Garrison and getting rid of a brutal Bieksa or bonehead Edler would have been better but the cult status of those guys pretty much tread blocked JB, but in the long run you are right. Garrison would be better to have now.

One move doesn't have to destroy the whole idea though.

 

[Canucker]

You are right, this team is hard to like.

But I hated it before Benning got here. I hated how stale and how soft this team was. I hated going 1-8 in the playoffs while being manhandled. I hated being ragdolled by the big teams in the West for years. I hated watching the likes of Higgy on the 2nd line because we couldn't nail a top 6 forward in the draft to save our lives. I hated the league wide embarrassment of the goaltending soap opera. I hated that our so called #1 defenceman has so many brain cramps. I hated that we were biting guys fingers or that our top players face was speed bagged and no one lifted a finger to stop it.


The ONLY thing I like or even watch for now is Horvat, Hutton, Virtanen, McCann, Tryamkin, Beartschi, Pedan etc. So if Banning can add to Boeser and Demko, and draft a few more I can forgive the odd Dorsett or Sbisa on the edge of the roster and give him a couple more years.

I have always said this summer is crucial for him in my eyes. If if he makes more goofy moves, I think you guys will be proven right.

Believe me, I'd love to be proven wrong...I really dislike cheering to tank.

Ah whatever, we were supposed to suck for awhile after the last 10 years and such. Fully expected for me.

I'm prepared to go through the "suckage" phase of a re-building process, but I don't like the idea of extending it longer than it needs to be by making questionable acquisitions, signings and trades. Even though we lost the lottery, we lucked out that we had so many injuries, otherwise we'd likely be picking in the 9-12 spot and that doesn't really do as much for us as picking #5 should.

 

[Canucker]

Ah whatever, we were supposed to suck for awhile after the last 10 years and such. Fully expected for me.



Well I agree there to some degree. Keeping Garrison and getting rid of a brutal Bieksa or bonehead Edler would have been better but the cult status of those guys pretty much tread blocked JB, but in the long run you are right. Garrison would be better to have now.

One move doesn't have to destroy the whole idea though.

The Cult status of Lack didn't prevent him from getting traded tho.

 

[y2kcanucks]

The Cult status of Lack didn't prevent him from getting traded tho.

This is what happens when arguments have flawed logic. One example pokes a huge hole in it.

 

[racerjoe]

Sure but is $.7 m that big of a deal over one extra year? That's like 1/100th of the cap. Maybe he just paid him like a member of the team moving forward and felt like we needed d signed. He also could have signed a cheaper goalie but making the cheapest team possible is also not the point for a GM.

How many cheaper dmen were available? it's not just the .7 m it's also the difference a replacement is, and that would be close to 3 mil. in savings.

There really wasn't an argument there. More of an observation. You, MS, Y2k, all knowledgable posters with some good things to say, some which I agree with.....but you have gone so far in your criticism of Benning and everything about the guy, there isn't a whole lot of room to come back on board with any level of credibility if Benning ends up having a good run as GM and putting together a good Canuck squad.

I have my doubts about the guy, but I try to chill a bit, give him more than 2 years to turn around the mess, yes mess, he was hired to fix. You could be right though maybe he will end up being as dumb as you say.

I think most posters have been vocal about what they have liked as well as what they didn't like. Some liked Beartschi, some the Bieksa trade, whatever it is, it shows that they aren't just hating a move because he made it. No one is too far down a rabbit hole, to walk back.

As others have pointed out, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. That's what this is though.

You think 35 year old Bieksa was a top D for us? He was dreadful his last season here.

Just like Lack was a top young goalie as good as Talbot and Jones when he was moved.

I have no problem with a 2nd for Garrison either.

Benning has not brought in good players, has lost some minor trades, but nothing he has moved are exactly world beaters.

When he got here, 2011 was over guys, the team had won a single playoff game in 3 years while being humbled. It was over. It was stale. Some bodies had to be moved. You can't keep the old core together forever.

Editing cause I forgot I quoted this last post. oops

bieksa was bad last year, but I blame Sbisa, and would like to point to his rebound this season as proof. I don't dislike the trade though.

Lack was in the same tier as Jones and Talbot, and many pundits had him as the second best goalie on the market. He got half the value of the next guy. That is dreadful. I don't care how anything turns out, at the time that is dreadful.

I have openly said if people want to blame Gillis for everything they can. Now how does that change what Benning has done now. I am judging Benning on what he has done with the direction he is trying to take this team in.