Confirmed with Link: Canucks announce HC Rick Tocchet will Not Return

[Oliewud]

When the going got tough, the tough left town.

LMAO rick friggin tochett preaches pullin up ur bootstraps

destroys the team then runs for the hills... WHAT A CLOWN LOL

 

[Bubbles]

Yeah as a fringe NHLer the entire time. Gaunce almost played 200...

Are you just arguing to argue or are you putting up Gillis draft resume to bennings because if so...

No I use the same arguments for both ways. Benning was hired in April and the scouting staff stayed the same for that draft in 2014. So I don't count that for Benning. Gillis was also hired in April so I won't "credit" that to him in 2008.

Benning drafted better than Gillis. I'm not arguing people there.

People on here just love to crap on Benning (and it's deserved) but he did draft better than average.

 

[I am toxic]

Bourdon was drafted like 3 years before gillis took over. Hodgson was unfortunate but we're not counting almost NHLers here. I can do a count for bennings draft picks if you like and include players like tryamkin and Virtanen to make Gillis look even more pathetic.

my bad, should have caught AI's mistake

as pointed out, having a back to back President's Trophy team that goes to the Finals does not lend itself to a pipeline, nor should it

And yet Gillis still left the club in good shape despite all that success, including Markstrom

There isn't any doubt Gillis had bigger fish to fry and drafting was not a strength like so many other things in the org at the time, but he was turning his attention that way and there is no doubt he would have improved it

The org misses having a GM as good as Gillis

 

[ExarKun80]

Let’s hope for a tampa loss today because Cooper would he absolutely the best case scenario if you finally leaves after 12 years.

He’s from BC as well, and he always said an interview interviews that he loves challenges and wants to solve them

I don't think he will get fired because Florida are just too good and deep right now similar to how Tampa was between 2020-2022. They 3 peat if they did not run into an all time stacked Avalanche team in 2022.

If he is fired then you'd have 20+ teams throwing money at him and most of them are in much better position than the canucks are. Copper is also a smart individual(very smart for the sports world) and I very much doubt that he wants to deal with a meddling owner like Fredo, the constant drama and the flip-flopping that happens in Vancouver.

 

[me2]

 

[quat]

Bourdon was drafted like 3 years before gillis took over. Hodgson was unfortunate but we're not counting almost NHLers here. I can do a count for bennings draft picks if you like and include players like tryamkin and Virtanen to make Gillis look even more pathetic.

Not sure how they're comparable given Gillis never drafted below 10, while Benning lived below that line.

Both were doing their best to make the playoffs and build a contender. Yes, Benning was in a more difficult spot than Gillis when they both took over, but on the whole, Gillis was savey and Benning was a dolt.

Oddly enough, one of Benning true hits in JT Miller played a massive part in destroying the Canucks.

 

[notsocommonsense]

Or he knows this team is a sinking ship and doesnt want to stay here.
I think we might have to accept the inevitability that Hughes is gone after this year too. Tocchet leaving all but confirms it.

I’d say it’s this right here. Guy is essentially a free agent and gets to choose where he wants to go so why shouldn’t he? Bunch of jilted Ex girlfriends in this thread.

This franchise has had a LOT of rough years but this season was downright embarrassing as a fan largely due to some mean girls high school bullshit and pouting from “professional” athletes.

Garbage owner, loose lipped management and drama queen players?

Gee, I wonder why he isn’t coming back

 

[Diablo2020]

This is literally all conjecture. "Maybe he thinks".

Don't fall for sports media nonsense. They don't even report on the sport, just the drama these days. And so many fall for it hook line and sinker.

Sports media suck.

There's sports media then there's Gary Mason though.

Mason isnt popping out 12 articles like Canucks Army every week looking for clicks. He's very obviously Jimmy's mouthpiece and well informed when he does chime in.

I know I know it sucks we are in the midst of wasting one of the elite NHL talents of all time but read some tea leaves.

 

[F A N]

The GM's hire the scouting staff.

Ultimately yes but most GMs inherit a scouting staff and make few impact changes. Of the GMs in recent memory, Benning is the only one who quickly replaced the guy running the draft. There have been few changes to the scouting staff (additions/replacement wise) since Rutherford took over.

His drafting was poor and he said as much himself, as he was too slow in making changes to the scouts and the system in place. Benning's first draft, aside from Virtanen, was all from Gillis and it was decent.

There are rumours that Virtanen was the preordained pick. Regardless, Virtanen was a good prospect and aside from not being a C, he certainly fits into the type of player Gillis and Benning would like. I would attribute the Demko and Tryamkin picks to Benning's influence. I think the decision to use a high pick on a goalie is often made by a GM and we know that Gillis had a ban on drafting Russians.

Also, people here or just in general give way too much credit to GMs and drafting. Brian Burke said that a GM has sway over the 1st rounder usually, and lets the scouting staff determine the rest.

I agree that the later round picks are usually that of the scouting staff but that's just an old quote from Burke. Burke has since made other comments like valuing character and work ethic over skill. I think a GM can certainly influence the type of players the team prioritizes including picks in the late round including changing the team's lists. I would say that a GM giving zero input on the team's drafting also influences the draft (for better or for worse). I don't think we can downplay a GM's ability to influence how the team drafts. Ultimately it's his draft record.

Take the drafting of Podkolzin. Benning's influence there is that is that he listened to Brackett instead of trading down because Pods was the only guy left that they had ranked in a higher tier (granted this is an example of influencing the 1st rounder).

No I use the same arguments for both ways. Benning was hired in April and the scouting staff stayed the same for that draft in 2014. So I don't count that for Benning. Gillis was also hired in April so I won't "credit" that to him in 2008.

Benning drafted better than Gillis. I'm not arguing people there.

People on here just love to crap on Benning (and it's deserved) but he did draft better than average.

Ya ultimately the drafting under Benning was better but our later round drafting still sucked (which Benning did try to correct to Brackett's displeasure).

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

There's sports media then there's Gary Mason though.

Mason isnt popping out 12 articles like Canucks Army every week looking for clicks. He's very obviously Jimmy's mouthpiece and well informed when he does chime in.

I know I know it sucks we are in the midst of wasting one of the elite NHL talents of all time but read some tea leaves.

Again, you can choose to read only the most depressing tea leaves with the most depressing interpretation knowing that it's, at best, one perspective on a situation with a ton of variables that is over a year away from being relevant.

Or you can choose to live somewhat in the here and now, knowing that you have literally zero influence over how this goes anyway.

Being calm and reflective doesn't cost you anymore than being excessively reactive to every single perceived possible negative factor and it's a hell of a better way to live and far better for the mental health.

I'm not really engaging very deeply with the 'OMG Quinn's gone!" stuff from the resident chicken littles because:

A: they catastrophize every single thing and then when 95 percent of them don't come to fruition they completely forgot how unhinged they were being.

B: I have no influence and no choice but to find some joy in the journey or get off the train.

C: We have no idea what's going on behind the scenes.

D: even if he's disgruntled and leaning towards leaving, a hell of a lot can change in a year or two. Think of how he would have been feeling about the team and its future in the summer of 2023 versus 2024 for example. We had a bad year, but we could be far better and have a far more hopeful outlook a year from now. There's no need to panic about this.

E: The panic posse is being endlessly manipulated by our dogshit media who don't understand the game so have very little worthy analysis to offer, and have no sources so have no behind the scenes info. That leaves them with emotional manipulation and drama peddling and I have no interest in being their audience for that bullshit. I mean, I'm aware of it, but I'm not engaging or giving my own personal power over my emotional regulation over to their skillless, lowest common-denominator bullshit.

 

[Bubbles]

There's sports media then there's Gary Mason though.

Mason isnt popping out 12 articles like Canucks Army every week looking for clicks. He's very obviously Jimmy's mouthpiece and well informed when he does chime in.

I know I know it sucks we are in the midst of wasting one of the elite NHL talents of all time but read some tea leaves.

He's not JR's mouthpiece, he's Aqua's mouthpiece. Mason is actually known as the Aquilini Whisperer in media circles. Every time he has an article on the Canucks, it's usually prompted by Aqua. (I think it was only his 2nd article all year)

I agree that the later round picks are usually that of the scouting staff but that's just an old quote from Burke. Burke has since made other comments like valuing character and work ethic over skill. I think a GM can certainly influence the type of players the team prioritizes including picks in the late round including changing the team's lists. I would say that a GM giving zero input on the team's drafting also influences the draft (for better or for worse). I don't think we can downplay a GM's ability to influence how the team drafts. Ultimately it's his draft record.

Take the drafting of Podkolzin. Benning's influence there is that is that he listened to Brackett instead of trading down because Pods was the only guy left that they had ranked in a higher tier (granted this is an example of influencing the 1st rounder).

It may be an old quote from Burke but it's been confirmed by many ex-GMs and it's a general rule. I'm not downplaying the role, but you're making it sound like the GM can be lauded for a late round gem when he has no role other than setting a type of player that they want into an organization.

Podz was ranked much higher by pretty much everyone. I chalk that up to pure Canuck luck for not working out.

 

[F A N]

It may be an old quote from Burke but it's been confirmed by many ex-GMs and it's a general rule. I'm not downplaying the role, but you're making it sound like the GM can be lauded for a late round gem when he has no role other than setting a type of player that they want into an organization.

A GM can be lauded for a late round gem if his directions did set the team up to pick that player. Ben Hutton is an example of a player we might not have picked if Gillis didn't direct his scouts to look for college bound players and not to ignore overagers that year.

I'm not saying GMs are typically involved in who the team picks in the later rounds, but their directions or lack thereof matter. I have consistently taken the position that a GM (and or POHO) is ultimately responsible for his draft record. Simply letting the scouts pick whomever they want is effectively a direction. A lot of that is trust. A GM has to trust his scouting staff to find players that he wants. Like Nill brought McDonnell with him to Dallas and they think alike and trust each other. McDonnell wanted Wyatt Johnson and told Nill they could still get him by trading down. Nill listend and ended up with Johnson and Stankoven.

Gillis in his initial years listend to his scouts and what we got (in his opinion) resulted in an overemphasis of players from the Q. He then carried out a study and decided to divert resources to scouting the WHL. The fruits of that was the 2013 draft. No draft picks from the Q that year.

Benning listened to Brackett and ended up with Podkolzin and Woo for example. He also listened to Ian Clark and drafted a goalie every other draft. Under Gillis, the Swedish scouts seem to be given the team's 4th and 5th pick and the Canucks drafting Forsling in 2014 may be a direct result of Forsling being drafted under Benning. The Canucks started drafting USHL players after Benning took over (and promoting Brackett) and that's not a coincidence.

Podz was ranked much higher by pretty much everyone.

No he wasn't. I could say with 100% certainty that very few posters had Pods as the BPA at the time. There were certainly no fist pumps or big smiles from upper management when Zegras got picked by Anaheim. If I recall correctly, the draft was also held in Vancouver and the intial reaction was one of shock.

 

[IComeInPeace]

No he wasn't. I could say with 100% certainty that very few posters had Pods as the BPA at the time.

This is where Podkolzin was ranked as of May 2019 (not final rankings from all sources):

Elite Prospects: #3
Future Considerations: #3
Hockey Prospect: #3
ISS Hockey: #4
McKeen’s Hockey: #5
McKenzie/TSN: #3
NHL Central Scouting: #2 (EU skaters)

…but, he was dropping partly because of his play and partly because of his contract situation.

I seem to recall Canuck fans were very happy with the pick. He was thought of as a high upside skilled player with the only real downside being you had to wait 2 years for him to arrive because of his KHL contract.

But, yes, Zegras was the guy many were hoping was about to drop into our lap.

 

[rypper]

I went to the 2019 draft in Vancouver. There was shock when Podkolzin's name was called because everyone expected him to be gone already. Everyone was focused on the US hockey guys around our pick. It wasn't disappointment though.

 

[NYVanfan]

So much we don’t know about the whole Tocc thing.

One thing we do though is that he had two 100 point centers and couldn’t make them work. I don’t care what the extenuating circumstances are, that’s a coach’s job, and it’s the number one reason the whole thing went into the ditch, so that’s a big fat F for me.

 

[racerjoe]

This is where Podkolzin was ranked as of May 2019 (not final rankings from all sources):

Elite Prospects: #3
Future Considerations: #3
Hockey Prospect: #3
ISS Hockey: #4
McKeen’s Hockey: #5
McKenzie/TSN: #3
NHL Central Scouting: #2 (EU skaters)

…but, he was dropping partly because of his play and partly because of his contract situation.

I seem to recall Canuck fans were very happy with the pick. He was thought of as a high upside skilled player with the only real downside being you had to wait 2 years for him to arrive because of his KHL contract.

But, yes, Zegras was the guy many were hoping was about to drop into our lap.

Shock or not, rankings or not Podz should have never been ranked so high.

He has never produced points and at lower levels no matter what position or type of player you project to be you need to produce at lower levels. It was a major red flag that he didn't produce. I personally had him well outside my top 10, not that I am any type of draft guru, I just pay attention to makers like that.

People made excuses for him not producing, but they have pretty much proven to be bad excuses.

He also did drop I don't remember by how much to the rankings closer to the draft and Mocks... again I don't remember by how much

but this doesn't matter as it was actually a Bracket pick if I remember correctly.

 

[Ernie]

So much we don’t know about the whole Tocc thing.

One thing we do though is that he had two 100 point centers and couldn’t make them work. I don’t care what the extenuating circumstances are, that’s a coach’s job, and it’s the number one reason the whole thing went into the ditch, so that’s a big fat F for me.

There's still a huge question mark about who told Miller to "toughen up" Pettersson.

That fateful decision destroyed this team.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i think the thing we need to be realistic about is that if all other things are equal, travel and taxes are always going to be a disadvantage for us when we recruit.

i think it was the same for zad as it is for tocc. would like to have stayed, but because of geography the lifestyle is much more grinding and if the pre-tax dollars are the same then you’re giving away money (i think? not an accountant)

and so for tocc i think when you have two cheat codes in hughes and demko, and two 100 pt capable centers who each can be major plus players on their own sides of the puck, it’s a job worth the travel and what you’re giving up paying extra taxes. because the shot at winning trumps everything if you have other options, and he’s a guy with name rec from being a former star player and media personality.

but even just taking away the demko cheat code, and i really think he was the great equalizer, it just doesn’t become worth it anymore. do i like it? no. but it is what it is.

but i also think the calculus for a franchise player is different. for every tavares there are countless sedins, because the legacy stakes are very much active. everyone wants to be d wade and curry, no one really wants to be lebron or kd.

and even if hughes ultimately decides to leave, you have to just take the two shots you have before he goes. i still think the lindholm trade was 100% the right move, for ex. the half measures of the offseason were the mistake. if we crated three years from now that to me is better having done everything we can to utilize (and as fans enjoy) a truly special and once in a lifetime player than getting “some” value back from him while we still could.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

No I use the same arguments for both ways. Benning was hired in April and the scouting staff stayed the same for that draft in 2014. So I don't count that for Benning. Gillis was also hired in April so I won't "credit" that to him in 2008.

Benning drafted better than Gillis. I'm not arguing people there.

What makes you say this?

People on here just love to crap on Benning (and it's deserved) but he did draft better than average.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Have yet to listen to this but... this quote is pretty wild to me.

 

[Bubbles]

What makes you say this?

I'm only comparing 1st rounders because it's my belief that 1st rounders are very clearly the GM's personal decision, obviously with help from the scouting staff.

Gillis:

2008: Cody Hodgson
2009: Jordan Shroeder
2010: No 1st
2011: Nicklas Jensen
2012: Brendan Gaunce
2013: Bo Horvat, Hunter Shinkaruk

Benning:

2014: Jake Virtanen, Jared McCann
2015: Brock Boeser
2016: Olli Juolevi
2017: Elias Pettersson
2018: Quinn Hughes
2019: Vasili Podkolzin
2020: No 1st
2021: No 1st

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I'm only comparing 1st rounders because it's my belief that 1st rounders are very clearly the GM's personal decision, obviously with help from the scouting staff.

Gillis:

2008: Cody Hodgson
2009: Jordan Shroeder
2010: No 1st
2011: Nicklas Jensen
2012: Brendan Gaunce
2013: Bo Horvat, Hunter Shinkaruk

Benning:

2014: Jake Virtanen, Jared McCann
2015: Brock Boeser
2016: Olli Juolevi
2017: Elias Pettersson
2018: Quinn Hughes
2019: Vasili Podkolzin
2020: No 1st
2021: No 1st

Would be good to include where in the 1st these picks were made.

 

[CloutierForVezina]

I'm only comparing 1st rounders because it's my belief that 1st rounders are very clearly the GM's personal decision, obviously with help from the scouting staff.

Gillis:

2008: Cody Hodgson 10th overall
2009: Jordan Shroeder 22nd overall
2010: No 1st
2011: Nicklas Jensen 29th overall
2012: Brendan Gaunce 26th overall
2013: Bo Horvat, Hunter Shinkaruk 9th overall, 24th overall

Benning:

2014: Jake Virtanen, Jared McCann 6th overall, 24th overall
2015: Brock Boeser 23rd overall
2016: Olli Juolevi 5th overall
2017: Elias Pettersson 5th overall
2018: Quinn Hughes 7th overall
2019: Vasili Podkolzin 10th overall
2020: No 1st
2021: No 1st

Yeah the guy who had 4 top-7 picks drafted better players than the guy who only had 2 picks in the top 20. Fantastic insight, you've convinced me.

 

[Tinhorn1]

View attachment 1028204

Have yet to listen to this but... this quote is pretty wild to me.

It certainly is. Petterson may never regain his form, for all I know, but it's inarguable that he lost it while being "coached" by Tocchet. Seeing as Petterson playing well is the only chance the Canucks have of contending at this point, I'm actually more comfortable with someone else behind the bench. I really just don't know what was so wrong with a magnificent offensive contributor who also controlled play and was a defensive stalwart. Miss him. Not saying Tocchet's the reason that guy's gone, as I have no solid idea, but just saying it's doubtful he would have been part of the solution.