GDT: Canes vs Hurricanes great Patrick Marleau.

[CandyCanes]

In the end, the scoreboard is the only thing that matters.

I agree, that new $6 million dollar scoreboard is really the only thing that matters.

 

[CandyCanes]

One of these things is not like the others

You just made me want to listen to Pretenders by the Foo Fighters.

 

[Dishface]

One of these things is not like the others

Based on this year, is there ???

 

[Svechhammer]

You know, everybody keeps saying this -- but I don't actually buy it.

We didn't lose to the Bruins because we "didn't have enough stones" or because we "don't police situations." We lost to the Bruins because they are goddamned monsters with years of playoff experience, and we ran out of gas after playing playoff-intensity hockey for six months and then cooling our heels after the Islanders sweep.

Eddy has stepped up a couple of times when it was needed. Maybe you want more of that, fine. But don't confuse that with a reason that this team wins or doesn't win. Someone "stepping up" to punch Joe Thornton, in a close game when Joe already took the extra penalty and we needed the two points, would have been the stupidest thing in the world.

Yeah I had the same thought watching the Sharks on the PP last night. That's a team that has had the benefit of playing together for 10+ years and knows where each person is going to be at any given time. Boston is the same way, they've had a chance to mature and grow.

We just aren't anywhere close to that now. Once we are there we are going to be great. And that will be the time when the talent becomes more consistent.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Yeah, they were pretty hard on the Canes on Sirius/XM today because there was no retaliation.

Now that I've had a day to reflect on it I suppose I am just happy with seeing an exciting game and the win.

But boy, I was not happy at the game. Nor was my wife- we were were snapping at each other thanks to the tension in the game. The surrounding fans were also very angry and saying some pretty ugly things. Say what you want about fighting, but I think one would have level set everybody.

Was it really that big of a deal? I honestly think the whole situation was overblown.

Thornton took a few extra pokes at Mrazek, a not uncommon play in the game. Mrazek took a swing at Thornton with his stick, a bit more uncommon, but not unheard of. They both yap at each other, Mrazek gets in his face and Thornton pops him. I don’t think Mrazek dove, since I doubt he was expecting the jab, but I do think he sold it a bit once he was down.

Nonetheless, both teams come to the aid of their respective players and the game gets a bit yappy from that point onward, but I don’t see why it’s getting news articles or such a large MB thread.

And I don’t see why the team needed to give more of a response than what they did, lest they be considered “soft.” Hell, considering the joking they did after the game and in practice, I think the fans have made much more out of this situation than the players did.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

it was never my intention to make it seem like toughness was the reason we lost to the bruins. the bruins are a hell of a team and we had no chance in that series even if we iced stu grimson in his prime. it was just disheartening as a fan, and probably as a player if we're honest, to have liberties taken against your teammates and yourself without any recourse other than the scoreboard. i can't say with any definitive information if that had any impact on the outcomes of any particular games, and i agree with the general premise that it's more important to win games than it is to win fights, but i don't think it's a situation where you have to give up anything substantial in the trade off between some of the physical lower line guys who can throw if you replace cogs in the lineup like where gibbons and others reside presently.

good teams have balance, and i think that extends into all areas of the game. tampa bay built their empire on pure skill and it has continuously failed them when it matters most. i don't intend to imply that a plug would have saved them, but there's something to having players that are willing to put their bodies on the line for the rest of the squad that really gets guys fired up. i think we'd be remiss not to explore that concept in the interest of building a balanced team.

I 100% agree with the importance of "guys who are willing to put their bodies on the line". But that takes a lot of forms. Taking a hit to make a play, or going into the dirty areas to score, are way more important than fighting in any form.

I disagree with the premise that willingness to start a fight is in any way a necessary component of team toughness.

It's an emotional sport. For now, fights are a part of the sport. Sometimes guys fight. That's fine. But "skill at fighting" is just not a thing that matters anymore. If there's a list of skills you want, "willingness to stand up for teammates in some way" may be somewhere on that list, but "ability to knock a guy on his ass" is not. It just doesn't matter.
It makes the fans cheer, of course. But I would way rather have a talented team that wins, and that's exactly what we're building.

Who's the best tough guy in the league? Probably Tom Wilson. But he's not the best tough guy because he fights. He's the best tough guy because he plays a skilled, physical game. He fights only because other guys pick fights with him because of his playing style. Do those fights deter him from knocking someone on his ass? Brother, they absof***inglutely do not. The only thing that deters Tom Wilson, at this point, is the threat of suspension.

Name a tough guy in the league that helps his team win because he starts fights. Is there one?

The enforcer is finished in the NHL. That's just the reality.

So when we talk about stones, or grit, what are we talking about that we think this team doesn't have? We've got a lot of guys, across the lineup, that are willing and able to play a physical style. Svech, Ginner, Foegs can all play a very physical style. Eddy can go from time to time, as can Marty. When he's ready, Goat is an honest to God bodybuilder wrecking ball. Hell, even Dzingel can get a bee in his bonnet.

We've got a tight knit team that sticks up for one another when it really counts. What more do we want?

Sure, I'd love to have Tom Wilson, but if you go around pretending that Micheal Ferland is Tom Wilson, well then you're the Canucks.

 

[Vagrant]

I 100% agree with the importance of "guys who are willing to put their bodies on the line". But that takes a lot of forms. Taking a hit to make a play, or going into the dirty areas to score, are way more important than fighting in any form.

I disagree with the premise that willingness to start a fight is in any way a necessary component of team toughness.

It's an emotional sport. For now, fights are a part of the sport. Sometimes guys fight. That's fine. But "skill at fighting" is just not a thing that matters anymore. If there's a list of skills you want, "willingness to stand up for teammates in some way" may be somewhere on that list, but "ability to knock a guy on his ass" is not. It just doesn't matter.
It makes the fans cheer, of course. But I would way rather have a talented team that wins, and that's exactly what we're building.

Who's the best tough guy in the league? Probably Tom Wilson. But he's not the best tough guy because he fights. He's the best tough guy because he plays a skilled, physical game. He fights only because other guys pick fights with him because of his playing style. Do those fights deter him from knocking someone on his ass? Brother, they abso****inglutely do not. The only thing that deters Tom Wilson, at this point, is the threat of suspension.

Name a tough guy in the league that helps his team win because he starts fights. Is there one?

The enforcer is finished in the NHL. That's just the realit
So when we talk about stones, or grit, what are we talking about that we think this team doesn't have? We've got a lot of guys, across the lineup, that are willing and able to play a physical style. Svech, Ginner, Foegs can all play a very physical style. Eddy can go from time to time, as can Marty. When he's ready, Goat is an honest to God bodybuilder wrecking ball. Hell, even Dzingel can get a bee in his bonnet.

We've got a tight knit team that sticks up for one another when it really counts. What more do we want?

Sure, I'd love to have Tom Wilson, but if you go around pretending that Micheal Ferland is Tom Wilson, well then you're the Canucks.

that's well thought out and well-reasoned. i don't know exactly how much we're disagreeing on, but there are some aspects worth clarifying. the idea of being able to be something other than an enforcer is critical to the role now. it's also becoming increasingly common that actually fighting isn't as critical to the role as it once was. it's just that having a player on your roster that serves as a sheriff does seem to have an effect that emboldens the rest of your team. it's always been a sort of cold war anyways as far as fighters are concerned, especially in recent years. the nuclear option of the mutual understanding this team has a player that can fight your best fighter or demoralize you in front of everyone. you're right about tom wilson. his fighting is almost more of a function of his style of play than anything else. that's not exactly what i'm talking about. there are guys around the league that don't even fight but command enough respect for their ability to do so that it's less likely, anecdotally at least, that you have your goalie punched in the throat. chara. borowiecki, lucic, gudas, reeves, etc. basically anyone that you can imagine going rabid on the ice if the situation dictated, but otherwise able to contribute in at least a capacity that doesn't make them a liability in the actual game.

as far as tangible evidence of the effectiveness of having this type of player on your team, there's going to be none. there isn't really any to have justified it at any point in league history but if you go back and ask almost every star player about teammates they're almost always going to effusively show their appreciation for the heavies that allowed them to think less about being murdered and more about being themselves. even if the insulation from cheap shots is all placebo then and now, there has to be some benefit. the psychology isn't all that hard to relate to in my opinion.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

there are guys around the league that don't even fight but command enough respect for their ability to do so that it's less likely, anecdotally at least, that you have your goalie punched in the throat. chara. borowiecki, lucic, gudas, reeves, etc. basically anyone that you can imagine going rabid on the ice if the situation dictated, but otherwise able to contribute in at least a capacity that doesn't make them a liability in the actual game.

We have that guy, though, and his name is Joel Edmundson. He's 6'4" and 215. He's gone up against some heavies and can clearly fight; if you go to hockeyfights.com you can see him holding his own against the likes of Tyler Myers (6'8") and David Backes and Josh Manson. The fight cards show him either winning or drawing 10 of his 11 career fights -- including him absolutely whaling on Jamie McGinn for taking liberties last season. His only clear loss was to Shane Doan in his first full year in the league.

From my perspective, there's nothing substantially different between Eddy and the guys you listed other than reputation. Take Ryan Reaves, for example. Sure, Eddy's only got 11 career fights as opposed to Ryan Reaves's 67 -- but the vast majority of Reaves's fights were earlier in his NHL career, when fighting was more prevalent. Last season Reaves had 3 fights in 80 games; Edmundson had 2 fights in 64.

So we've got A Guy we can call on to fight when a fight is clearly "called for". If you contend that "enforcer" is still a necessary job, Eddy is demonstrably good enough to do that job the two or three times in a season when it will seem most necessary.

Of course, that's only part of what people complain about when they complain about the Canes "lack of toughness" -- basically those fans like hard-hitting hockey, and the Canes choose deliberately to play a different style of game. Why? My guess is because big hits don't correlate to wins; possession does. And when you possess the puck, you're obviously not trying to hit the other guys; they're trying to hit you. Also, if possession of the puck is the goal, hitting is one way to achieve that goal, but there are other ways. The stats don't care about how you get the puck back, only that you get it back. Slavin isn't a great defenseman because he knocks guys out; he's a great defenseman because does whatever it takes to get possession of the puck back.

Some fans want to see fights and hits because that's the style of hockey they find aesthetically pleasing. That's perfectly fair and perfectly fine. But it's not the only way, or even the best way, to win hockey games -- and it's also not the only way, or even the best way, to measure "toughness".

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

One of these things is not like the others

one of them is Swedish?

 

[NotOpie]

Call me "in the minority" but I want nothing to do with Tom Wilson or a Tom Wilson kind of player. Don't get me wrong, I understand that he's a big, tough guy who lays big hits, allegedly polices the ice for his teammates, and does so with a fair amount of skill.

He's also a pure head-hunter, a guy who plays to hurt other people. There are numerous times when he's stalked another player from across the ice to "lay the big hit"...and the hit isn't even borderline. It's a malicious attack meant to do nothing but "take a guy out", to hurt an opposing player.

I love the good, clean, big hit....that's not Tom Wilson. Wilson has repeatedly targeted the head, often raises shoulders and elbows to maximize the damage, and many time leaps into his hits (leaves his feet). That's flat out bullshit and there's no place for that in today's game.

He's apparently tried to clean up his game, but the majority of the games where I've watched the Caps, he ultimately ends up targeting the offensive skill guy who is doing damage that game. His offense mostly comes because he plays on a line with top end skilled guys (Ovechkin and Kuznetsov or Ovechkin and Backstrom, I believe).

No, he's a scumbag and I don't want him anywhere near my team.

 

[bleedgreen]

I just want us to be able to play tougher and not be pushed around when someone goes that way with us, and be able to play that way right back when necessary. It has nothing to do with fighting. I think if we have that the incident with Joe handles itself. I don’t want a cop. We shouldn’t need one.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I don’t see how the makeup of our roster would have prevented the situation, nor do I see how the game changed after that situation, except the Sharks were able to get a late period goal to tie the game.

And if we’re going to try to claim that having a more physical lineup would have somehow prevented that goal, I don’t know what to tell you. I could just as easily argue that having more skilled guys would lead to a better performing PP, thus making the Joe situation wind up as a 3-1 lead for us.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I just want us to be able to play tougher and not be pushed around when someone goes that way with us, and be able to play that way right back when necessary. It has nothing to do with fighting. I think if we have that the incident with Joe handles itself. I don’t want a cop. We shouldn’t need one.

That incident with Joe? Mrazek took a swing at him with his stick!

Like, seriously, explain to me what didn't happen that you wanted to happen there. It was a nothingburger.

What response would have satisfied you?

Or, alternatively, what behavior by the Canes do you think would have "deterred" Joe from taking a shot at Mrazek after he started swinging his lumber?

 

[Unsustainable]

I find the lack of a new GDT disturbing

 

[MinJaBen]

Maybe I’m missing something here, but I thought we won the game?

 

[hblueridgegal]

Hell, considering the joking they did after the game and in practice, I think the fans have made much more out of this situation than the players did.​

Petr seemed so amused by it all in the interviews. Not sure it would been worth a brawl of sorts given his comme ci comme ça comments. Although, maybe if Zinger had arrived first, he might have taken a better retaliatory shot than Gardiner as he likes to box.

While we seem to be on the slight side, are the Habs smaller than the Canes? I watch a number of games on their feed and they look tiny compared to the competition almost every game. It could be the camera angles. The western teams seem to love a good brawl and nightly smack around.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Maybe I’m missing something here, but I thought we won the game?

 

[MinJaBen]

I find the lack of a new GDT disturbing

Not that I hope we lose or anything, but I’ve been hoping to start a GDT where all of our comments have to be things you can say during a hockey game and sex.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Not that I hope we lose or anything, but I’ve been hoping to start a GDT where all of our comments have to be things you can say during a hockey game and sex.

Would end with "well, that was disappointing. Again."

 

[MinJaBen]

Petr seemed so amused by it all in the interviews. Not sure it would been worth a brawl of sorts given his comme ci comme ça comments. Although, maybe if Zinger had arrived first, he might have taken a better retaliatory shot than Gardiner as he likes to box.

While we seem to be on the slight side, are the Habs smaller than the Canes? I watch a number of games on their feed and they look tiny compared to the competition almost every game. It could be the camera angles. The western teams seem to love a good brawl and nightly smack around.

Yeah, I think the outline painted on the ice is a pretty good indication of how serious that confrontation was to Petr and the team. They all knew he sold it and the PP was enough.

 

[MinJaBen]

Would end with "well, that was disappointing. Again."

“We need guys who are harder.”

 

[SvechneJerk]

 

[Tryamw]

Brock McGinn gets it in Deep?(for @MinJerkBen )

Svech drives it home?
Svech gets it past Dell?
Slavin with the tight coverage...

Thorton jabs it in a soft spot...
Aho rubs him off. (Aho's hit in the third)

 

[Lempo]

Not that I hope we lose or anything, but I’ve been hoping to start a GDT where all of our comments have to be things you can say during a hockey game and sex.

"I swear it's in!"

 

[AD Skinner]

"That took longer than I expected"