GDT: Canes @ Canucks: What is stronger, MinJaBen's GDT curse or the Nuck's losing streak?

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I honestly still don't understand why the Stastny goal was overturned. Nothing prevented the Vancouver goalie from making the save, and the puck was deflected off Stastny's skate (in a much less egregious fashion than the Fast goal).

Of all the challenges Brindamour makes that I disagree with, that one was one I thought was a good challenge...and it was one he lost.
 
I honestly still don't understand why the Stastny goal was overturned. Nothing prevented the Vancouver goalie from making the save, and the puck was deflected off Stastny's skate (in a much less egregious fashion than the Fast goal).

Of all the challenges Brindamour makes that I disagree with, that one was one I thought was a good challenge...and it was one he lost.
Once they called it no goal on the ice I never thought it’d be overturned, even though I thought the original call was soft as hell. It’s really hard to find indisputable evidence unless the guy gets clearly steamrolled into the goalie or there is zero contact at all. I get why he challenged it, but against that dumpster fire he probably should’ve just let it ride. Vancouver had no semblance of a scoring chance before they scored and I think the Canes just steamroll them without that challenge. I get why he did it though because it’s a baby shit soft call.
 
I honestly still don't understand why the Stastny goal was overturned. Nothing prevented the Vancouver goalie from making the save, and the puck was deflected off Stastny's skate (in a much less egregious fashion than the Fast goal).

Of all the challenges Brindamour makes that I disagree with, that one was one I thought was a good challenge...and it was one he lost.
I *hate* that the Fast goal is one that is deemed ok.
 
I don’t get the point of having any kicking rule at all anymore. Based on what I’ve seen since last season the only one that may be called would be Charlie Brown finally connecting on one before Lucy can pull the puck away.
The way I see it - a defenseman can do everything perfectly to hold off the opposing player (Fast) and lift his stick at the exact perfect moment, and yet Fast can direct the puck into the net with his skate and score.

Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, is all.
 
I honestly still don't understand why the Stastny goal was overturned. Nothing prevented the Vancouver goalie from making the save, and the puck was deflected off Stastny's skate (in a much less egregious fashion than the Fast goal).

Of all the challenges Brindamour makes that I disagree with, that one was one I thought was a good challenge...and it was one he lost.
What I saw was contact between the goalies skate and Fast‘s skate just as the puck was there. It wasn’t much, but it was the definition of goalie interference.

Anybody recognize the guy on the right? Blackhawks intermission show.
 

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I'm like 70/30 on this and the NHL is very inconsistent on the kicking motion. But...

I'm not sure that a redirecting motion is a kicking motion. If the puck had hit Fast in the leg, body, arm, face, etc. as he turned then it would have been a good goal. Fast deliberately turned for the redirect and it hit his skate.

I don't think that play falls under the scope of a "kick". The kicking rule is there to prevent injury. This play couldn't have caused an injury.
 
I'm like 70/30 on this and the NHL is very inconsistent on the kicking motion. But...

I'm not sure that a redirecting motion is a kicking motion. If the puck had hit Fast in the leg, body, arm, face, etc. as he turned then it would have been a good goal. Fast deliberately turned for the redirect and it hit his skate.

I don't think that play falls under the scope of a "kick". The kicking rule is there to prevent injury. This play couldn't have caused an injury.
Watching the replay I thought it was a pretty clear "kicking motion". I don't know if it was an intentional kick, but stopping gave his legs momentum into the puck. So much so that Tripp tried to defend it by saying "his blade doesn't leave the ice" as Fast's blade leaves the ice.

The Stastny goal was more of a good goal than Fast's; I would say they got both wrong.
 
The way I see it - a defenseman can do everything perfectly to hold off the opposing player (Fast) and lift his stick at the exact perfect moment, and yet Fast can direct the puck into the net with his skate and score.

Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, is all.
I think the counter argument would be that doing everything perfectly would involve the defenseman making a play on the puck and not the offensive players stick. I obviously see where you are coming from because when I saw Fast’s goal and I immediately thought well he kicked that in on purpose it won’t be a goal. Then I had to remember that oh right that doesn’t actually matter anymore.
 
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Exactly. Replay is turning the game ass-backwards.
I'd rather keep it than lose it. The game is too fast for human vision to catch everything, so an ability to take a second look is a good thing. Some of the stupid rules should change so the "subjectivity" is minimized in the rulings, and there certainly is more that can be done to make the process better, but I wouldn't want to see it go away.
 
I'd rather keep it than lose it. The game is too fast for human vision to catch everything, so an ability to take a second look is a good thing. Some of the stupid rules should change so the "subjectivity" is minimized in the rulings, and there certainly is more that can be done to make the process better, but I wouldn't want to see it go away.

We’ll be mad either way.

One way wastes more time than the other.
 
We’ll be mad either way.

One way wastes more time than the other.

Really? I'm usually pretty satisfied with the ruling on the offsides ones regardless of whether they're for or against us (and that's like 75% of replays).

I think I'm less pissed off about the Stastny one knowing the refs got a chance to look again and stuck by their call, even if I'm not totally sure what their call was. If it was just waived off and we went right to a faceoff, I'd be mad thinking the ref saw some phantom thing that wasn't there and didn't have the opportunity to make it right. Whatever he saw, he clearly saw again on replay, and that makes it ok with me. Still a little confusing, but ok.

It doesn't really take that much longer either. These things don't happen every game. It's not like other sports where you can be concerned about pace of play - we're talking about a 2-3 min review every couple of games.
 
we're talking about a 2-3 min review every couple of games.

Yeah, 2-3 minutes after the scoring of a goal. That's game-changing.

Especially in a case where the outcome is based on some irrelevant technicality, wiping out a goal and giving the opponent a power play. A 2-goal swing for no reason, and for what? To resolve a controversy that didn't even exist in the real-time flow of the game?

Would Canucks fans still be talking about that Stastny goal by now? No they would not. A small number of them would have noted that it was close to interference, maybe even complained about it for 5 or 10 minutes, and forgotten about it by the end of the game. Meanwhile we're in here days later still referencing it. Replay didn't resolve a controversy, it created a controversy.
 
Yeah, 2-3 minutes after the scoring of a goal. That's game-changing.

Especially in a case where the outcome is based on some irrelevant technicality, wiping out a goal and giving the opponent a power play. A 2-goal swing for no reason, and for what? To resolve a controversy that didn't even exist in the real-time flow of the game?

Would Canucks fans still be talking about that Stastny goal by now? No they would not. A small number of them would have noted that it was close to interference, maybe even complained about it for 5 or 10 minutes, and forgotten about it by the end of the game. Meanwhile we're in here days later still referencing it. Replay didn't resolve a controversy, it created a controversy.

Per your first point - it’s entirely in the hands of the coach. The coach chooses to challenge. It’s not a 2 goal swing for no reason. It’s not a 2 goal swing at all. In your case, the Stastny goal still wouldn’t have counted, we just wouldn’t have had the chance to ask the refs to look at it again (at our own peril). It’s not 2-3 minutes after the scoring of a goal. It’s 2-3 minutes after the waiving off of a non-goal. (Read: neutral zone faceoff, a notoriously important moment in any game from a momentum perspective.) So if the Stastny goal wouldn’t have counted anyway, where are you getting the 2 goal swing from? Rod challenged based on what he and the video staff saw, knowing full well he could go shorthanded if he’s wrong. Assuming the opposing team scores on that powerplay, that’s a one goal swing when compared to not challenging. Given teams usually score on 20% of powerplays, it’s actually a .2 goal swing on average for every unsuccessful challenge. That’s well worth the risk if you think you can change the game and get a goal on the board for yourself.

Per your second point, I think you’re once again comparing against the wrong alternative. Canucks fans would not still be complaining, but that’s not the alternative if you take replay out of the game. The alternative is that the Stastny goal still doesn’t count (called no goal on the ice), so we’d be complaining about how garbage a call it was.
 
Per your first point - it’s entirely in the hands of the coach. The coach chooses to challenge. It’s not a 2 goal swing for no reason. It’s not a 2 goal swing at all. In your case, the Stastny goal still wouldn’t have counted, we just wouldn’t have had the chance to ask the refs to look at it again (at our own peril). It’s not 2-3 minutes after the scoring of a goal. It’s 2-3 minutes after the waiving off of a non-goal. (Read: neutral zone faceoff, a notoriously important moment in any game from a momentum perspective.) So if the Stastny goal wouldn’t have counted anyway, where are you getting the 2 goal swing from? Rod challenged based on what he and the video staff saw, knowing full well he could go shorthanded if he’s wrong. Assuming the opposing team scores on that powerplay, that’s a one goal swing when compared to not challenging. Given teams usually score on 20% of powerplays, it’s actually a .2 goal swing on average for every unsuccessful challenge. That’s well worth the risk if you think you can change the game and get a goal on the board for yourself.

Per your second point, I think you’re once again comparing against the wrong alternative. Canucks fans would not still be complaining, but that’s not the alternative if you take replay out of the game. The alternative is that the Stastny goal still doesn’t count (called no goal on the ice), so we’d be complaining about how garbage a call it was.

To be clear -- the reason I put a paragraph break in the middle of that post is because I addressed replays in general (which include a distinct possibility of a 2-goal swing) and then focused in on the Stastny goal in particular.

2 points to make about this:

1) It's insane that we are deciding games/seasons on a sideline mini-game that pits the coach against the ref. I want to see hockey players battling to determine the outcome of a hockey game, not Barry Trotz and Ian Walsh trying to figure out who has worse vision.

2) The entire point I'm making is that the controversy wouldn't exist without replay. A ref waving off a goal isn't a controversy, it's a tough break for your team. If the ref is wrong, he's just wrong. There's nothing to argue about. You're mad at the ref, sure, but you're always mad at the ref about one thing or another. It's sports.

Quick, off the top of your head -- what was the worst penalty called in the Columbus game? I don't remember any more than you do. I was probably furious about at least one of them at the time, but it's whatever... refs get that stuff wrong all the time and you have a beer and forget about it. Replay is a different story, it becomes a Court TV drama where people are still arguing about frame-by-frame replays days and even weeks later. That dynamic was nearly nonexistent before replay. Even the worst calls were just that... bad calls by a dumb ref. It's like complaining about ice quality or a bad power play, just a perpetual state of the game. Replay controversies are something of a different order, and only very rarely do they resolve an obvious problem that would have existed if replay weren't available.
 
I honestly still don't understand why the Stastny goal was overturned. Nothing prevented the Vancouver goalie from making the save, and the puck was deflected off Stastny's skate (in a much less egregious fashion than the Fast goal).

Of all the challenges Brindamour makes that I disagree with, that one was one I thought was a good challenge...and it was one he lost.
after 3 or 4 years of bias bullshit officating, you don't understand?

Bias,
 
after 3 or 4 years of bias bullshit officating, you don't understand?

Bias,

Hanlon's Razor, my dude.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence/ignorance

My job affords me the luxury of keeping tabs on just about every NHL game on any given night. The officials aren't biased against the Canes. They're just as bad in any given game.
 
To be clear -- the reason I put a paragraph break in the middle of that post is because I addressed replays in general (which include a distinct possibility of a 2-goal swing) and then focused in on the Stastny goal in particular.

2 points to make about this:

1) It's insane that we are deciding games/seasons on a sideline mini-game that pits the coach against the ref. I want to see hockey players battling to determine the outcome of a hockey game, not Barry Trotz and Ian Walsh trying to figure out who has worse vision.

2) The entire point I'm making is that the controversy wouldn't exist without replay. A ref waving off a goal isn't a controversy, it's a tough break for your team. If the ref is wrong, he's just wrong. There's nothing to argue about. You're mad at the ref, sure, but you're always mad at the ref about one thing or another. It's sports.

Quick, off the top of your head -- what was the worst penalty called in the Columbus game? I don't remember any more than you do. I was probably furious about at least one of them at the time, but it's whatever... refs get that stuff wrong all the time and you have a beer and forget about it. Replay is a different story, it becomes a Court TV drama where people are still arguing about frame-by-frame replays days and even weeks later. That dynamic was nearly nonexistent before replay. Even the worst calls were just that... bad calls by a dumb ref. It's like complaining about ice quality or a bad power play, just a perpetual state of the game. Replay controversies are something of a different order, and only very rarely do they resolve an obvious problem that would have existed if replay weren't available.

1) This is something that can be taken to an extreme though. If we really wanted to only see hockey players battle to determine the outcome of the game, we'd have no refs. The refs are there to ensure the rules and guidelines of the sport are appropriately applied to the situations that happen within the game. Replay helps to do that. Replay can be taken too far, of course. I think when it comes to goals, major game events that typically only happen 1-9 times per game, it's perfectly reasonable to take a second look if a coach thinks that the rules were incorrectly applied (and the coach is discouraged from challenging indiscriminately by perhaps the harshest penalty out of any of the 4 major sports for getting it wrong).

2) Controversy regarding goals/no goals has always been there. Comparing goal/no goal calls to the "worst penalty" in a regular season game 7 games ago (in a game in which we won) isn't really apples to apples. The replay thing started because missed calls became the story of every playoff game and every playoff series. Matt Duchene was very, very offsides on a regular season goal 9 years ago and I remember it. The fact that a replay is inherently more memorable because it has the opportunity to add or subtract a goal from the scoreboard that should've been there in the first place if the correct call were made on the ice to me is a small price to pay for actually getting said call right.

An example of a case where replay would have removed a controversy is the bogus 5 minute major they gave to Vegas in Game 7 in 2019 that allowed the Sharks to comeback. That's a memorable controversy to this day because of how bad a call that was, and how easily it could've been resolved via review. So no, it's not black and white that it "creates controversy." It sometimes reveals controversy. It sometimes makes things right when otherwise controversy would've occurred. Now that replay is in the game, you can point at every controversy associated with replay and say "replay caused that." But you overlooking all the controversy that doesn't occur because replay solved an otherwise missed call. Which it does do, regularly.

I agree, replay has the potential to be taken too far. I don't need every penalty reviewed. I don't need every icing reviewed. But goals are major, major events in games and deserve to be gotten right. The NFL has decided that every single touchdown gets reviewed, they don't even make you challenge it. The NHL's version of that is far less overreaching, discourages the coaches from challenging unless they're very confident, and a lot of the time gets it right. I might remember the Aho offsides thing because it was a major event. I don't think it was controversial - I think he was offside. I think the Stastny example isn't helped by the fact that we have another parallel "controversy" about how no one knows what goaltender interference is (which is actually what people here have been talking about, not that it was reviewed but that they were confused about where the interference came into play). But I'm glad the refs got a chance to get a second look since Rod thought it was interference. I'm really not bothered by the rule or the process at all, and I think it's one of very few things the league has actually gotten right in the last 10 years. To me it's a well balanced system with appropriate checks and balances.
 
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Hanlon's Razor, my dude.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence/ignorance

My job affords me the luxury of keeping tabs on just about every NHL game on any given night. The officials aren't biased against the Canes. They're just as bad in any given game.
I know this won't translate at all, especially without context. But I don't care.

There is a saying in a finnish movie classic: Cow is a ruminant and man is ignorant.
 
1) This is something that can be taken to an extreme though. If we really wanted to only see hockey players battle to determine the outcome of the game, we'd have no refs. The refs are there to ensure the rules and guidelines of the sport are appropriately applied to the situations that happen within the game. Replay helps to do that. Replay can be taken too far, of course. I think when it comes to goals, major game events that typically only happen 1-9 times per game, it's perfectly reasonable to take a second look if a coach thinks that the rules were incorrectly applied (and the coach is discouraged from challenging indiscriminately by perhaps the harshest penalty out of any of the 4 major sports for getting it wrong).

2) Controversy regarding goals/no goals has always been there. Comparing goal/no goal calls to the "worst penalty" in a regular season game 7 games ago (in a game in which we won) isn't really apples to apples. The replay thing started because missed calls became the story of every playoff game and every playoff series. Matt Duchene was very, very offsides on a regular season goal 9 years ago and I remember it. The fact that a replay is inherently more memorable because it has the opportunity to add or subtract a goal from the scoreboard that should've been there in the first place if the correct call were made on the ice to me is a small price to pay for actually getting said call right.

An example of a case where replay would have removed a controversy is the bogus 5 minute major they gave to Vegas in Game 7 in 2019 that allowed the Sharks to comeback. That's a memorable controversy to this day because of how bad a call that was, and how easily it could've been resolved via review. So no, it's not black and white that it "creates controversy." It sometimes reveals controversy. It sometimes makes things right when otherwise controversy would've occurred. Now that replay is in the game, you can point at every controversy associated with replay and say "replay caused that." But you overlooking all the controversy that doesn't occur because replay solved an otherwise missed call. Which it does do, regularly.

I agree, replay has the potential to be taken too far. I don't need every penalty reviewed. I don't need every icing reviewed. But goals are major, major events in games and deserve to be gotten right. The NFL has decided that every single touchdown gets reviewed, they don't even make you challenge it. The NHL's version of that is far less overreaching, discourages the coaches from challenging unless they're very confident, and a lot of the time gets it right. I might remember the Aho offsides thing because it was a major event. I don't think it was controversial - I think he was offside. I think the Stastny example isn't helped by the fact that we have another parallel "controversy" about how no one knows what goaltender interference is (which is actually what people here have been talking about, not that it was reviewed but that they were confused about where the interference came into play). But I'm glad the refs got a chance to get a second look since Rod thought it was interference. I'm really not bothered by the rule or the process at all, and I think it's one of very few things the league has actually gotten right in the last 10 years. To me it's a well balanced system with appropriate checks and balances.
I mostly agree with this take.

The one place I disagree: the penalty for missing a challenge is way too harsh, and I feel like it's not there to speed up games, but to protect the fragile egos of the refs.

Give each coach one free challenge. If they're right, they keep it. If they're wrong, they lose their free challenge. Every subsequent failed challenge is a penalty.

If that fairer system slows the game down substantially, then it's because your refs are shit and you need to fix them.
 
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