GDT: Canes@Bruins: Ewing-Oakley-Mason-Rivers-Starks Theory Game 4

[Brock Anton]

#classless luciano phil di giuseppe

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

we win gaem

qft.

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

#classless luciano phil di giuseppe

really wish we darfted giorgio estephan so he could play on a line w/ phil di giuseppe

 

[NotOpie]

really wish we darfted giorgio estephan so he could play on a line w/ phil di giuseppe

Who, by the way, is having a nice little season for Lethbridge.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Damn this team is really gelling at the absolute last minute of the season. Nice win gents.

It's not really the last minute though. From December 1st through Feb 23, the team has gone 20-11-6, which is a 102 point pace over a stretch of 37 games...so almost half the season. They hit a bump and lost 3 straight to end February, right before the deadline, although 1 of those was playing with 9 forwards and when Staal was traded right before the game, both of which contributed to that loss. As we've said all along, October and November doomed this team and put them in a hole that was just too deep to get out of, but since then, they've been playing very good hockey.

That said, although I don't think it's sustainable (I hope I'm proven wrong), I am surprised how they are doing while missing Faulk, Nestrasil, McClement (although he's back now), E. Staal, Versteeg, Liles...and going with a D that consists of Slavin, Hainsey, Pesce, Hanifin, Murphy, and Jordan. They aren't the most talented group, but rarely are there any "passengers" on this team.

 

[Stickpucker]

It's all good. The Canes have to earn their way in anyway, so just enjoy the ride, however long it lasts.

I'm suprised to still be on the ride.

 

[RodTheBawd]

It's not really the last minute though. From December 1st through Feb 23, the team has gone 20-11-6, which is a 102 point pace over a stretch of 37 games...so almost half the season. They hit a bump and lost 3 straight to end February, right before the deadline, although 1 of those was playing with 9 forwards and when Staal was traded right before the game, both of which contributed to that loss. As we've said all along, October and November doomed this team and put them in a hole that was just too deep to get out of, but since then, they've been playing very good hockey.

That said, although I don't think it's sustainable (I hope I'm proven wrong), I am surprised how they are doing while missing Faulk, Nestrasil, McClement (although he's back now), E. Staal, Versteeg, Liles...and going with a D that consists of Slavin, Hainsey, Pesce, Hanifin, Murphy, and Jordan. They aren't the most talented group, but rarely are there any "passengers" on this team.

I think they've gotten fairly lucky to get wins out of some of these recent games. I'll take it, but I wouldn't exactly say they're playing good hockey. (I don't know why I quoted you)

 

[Ole Gil]

Individual players are overrated.

Full team buy in to a solid system is underrated.

The East Standings are almost exactly how I would rank teams based on individual players.

 

[SaskCanesFan]

Individual players are overrated.

Full team buy in to a solid system is underrated.

Yeah, I don't buy that at all. A good system can get you playing closer games, but having a skilled team is what consistently makes you win those games.

Is Babcock suddenly a worse coach than he was in Detroit? Of course not, he's the same guy, capable of implementing the same system. And by all accounts Toronto has total buy in to his system and philosophy. But that team is last in the league by a decent margin instead in the playoffs like Detroit because they have a horribly unskilled team. They look better on the ice, and are in closer games than they were last year, but they still pile up losses because the team is just plain bad. Same way Quenville's "system" in Chicago probably doesn't lead to multiple Cups if you replace Toews and Kane with random third liners.

That's why I don't understand people on here that say this team doesn't need a real first line. Why do we want to be like Nashville, a team that has never made it out of the second round in their history? I understand a long playoff drought has been painful, but I still take the Canes history over the Preds pretty easily, because it includes a Cup win, and another Finals appearance. That's the point, that's what everybody plays for. Not to get bounced in the first round 6 times in a row, no thanks. Bill Peters has this team playing good hockey, but making the jump from "making the playoffs" to "consistent Cup threat" is the hard step, and it takes elite, game breaking talent. Toews, Kane, Kopitar, Doughty, Getzlaf, Perry, Stamkos, Hedman, Lunqvist, Price, Pacioretty, Crosby, Malkin, Bergeron, Datsyuk, Zetterberg etc. Those are the types that any team making deep runs has. If this teams goal is to be a Cup threat (which IMO it has to be) then they need to find a way to get an elite, top line forward or two to compliment the solid D.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Yeah, I don't buy that at all.

...and then snipping a bunch of stuff that's completely irrelevant to what I said.

I did not say "individual differences in players are meaningless". I said "individual players are overrated". Teams still need enough talent to win. No question about that.

Raise your hand if you thought the 2011-2012 Kings were going to win the Stanley Cup.

Raise your hand if you thought the 2005-2006 Canes were going to win the Stanley Cup.

Raise your hand if you thought the Ovechkins would have multiple Stanley Cups by now.

Okay, put your hands down.

I believe that, in general, fans dramatically overestimate the importance of top-end talent, and underestimate the importance of cohesion of lesser talent in a system that's geared for them, where everyone knows their role and performs with consistent excellence in that role.

You don't need an Ovechkin to win a Stanley Cup. Which is good, because we may never have one.

 

[DaveG]

I thought we were going to win the cup in 05-06... well, by the Olympic break at least, I thought we MIGHT be a playoff team that year but just that at the start of the season.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

It's kind of disappointing that this will possibly (probably) be another "too little, too late" season.

Last year the team played really good hockey down the stretch, but the first 3 months sunk them. This season could be the same story.

Is it too much to ask for a good Oct/Nov?

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

It's kind of disappointing that this will possibly (probably) be another "too little, too late" season.

Last year the team played really good hockey down the stretch, but the first 3 months sunk them. This season could be the same story.

Is it too much to ask for a good Oct/Nov?

At least we didn't go winless in October this year.

#BabySteps

 

[bleedgreen]

It's hard to argue we're no worse off after the trades. I think you can make an argument that even though estaal had good possession numbers that maybe he wasn't the greatest fit for the system without moving his feet more, and that Versteeg was decent but not exceptional at it? We subtracted two older guys and gave more playing time to quicker feet and those the style well.

Liles? I'm surprised we do well without him but the three kids apparently still had another gear to go to.

We want to be an every year playoff team. I agree maybe long term to make the jump to the cup we may need more elite talent but I think we won the cup off depth more than elite talent and made the finals the same way. Not to mention it's difficult to afford a deep team AND elite talent.


We may just have different elite talent anyway. Hanifin has a shot.

 

[RodTheBawd]

It's hard to argue we're no worse off after the trades. I think you can make an argument that even though estaal had good possession numbers that maybe he wasn't the greatest fit for the system without moving his feet more, and that Versteeg was decent but not exceptional at it? We subtracted two older guys and gave more playing time to quicker feet and those the style well.

Liles? I'm surprised we do well without him but the three kids apparently still had another gear to go to.

We want to be an every year playoff team. I agree maybe long term to make the jump to the cup we may need more elite talent but I think we won the cup off depth more than elite talent and made the finals the same way. Not to mention it's difficult to afford a deep team AND elite talent.


We may just have different elite talent anyway. Hanifin has a shot.

I don't know, to me, this team looks worse since the TDL. Skinner has been a maniac and the top 4 D still look solid, but I don't see these wins being sustainable.

 

[Joe McGrath]

...and then snipping a bunch of stuff that's completely irrelevant to what I said.

I did not say "individual differences in players are meaningless". I said "individual players are overrated". Teams still need enough talent to win. No question about that.

Raise your hand if you thought the 2011-2012 Kings were going to win the Stanley Cup.

Raise your hand if you thought the 2005-2006 Canes were going to win the Stanley Cup.

Raise your hand if you thought the Ovechkins would have multiple Stanley Cups by now.

Okay, put your hands down.

I believe that, in general, fans dramatically overestimate the importance of top-end talent, and underestimate the importance of cohesion of lesser talent in a system that's geared for them, where everyone knows their role and performs with consistent excellence in that role.

You don't need an Ovechkin to win a Stanley Cup. Which is good, because we may never have one.

I agree that you don't need an Ovechkin, but you damn sure need top end talent(depending on what your definition of top end means). Since the Canes won the cup there have been 6 teams to win 9 cups. The worst top player on any of those teams was either prime Zdeno Chara or a young Drew Doughty (leaving the goalies out of it). Those guys are top end talents to me. You need much more than top end talent to be successful though, to your point.

 

[SaskCanesFan]

Eh, I disagree Hank. Granted, teams do make Cinderella runs every now and again which are a great story. But the teams that are consistently in the late running have those Ovechkin level/elite talents. Every single one of them.

The Canes had Estaal leading the playoffs in points, The Kings had Kopitar and Brown (lol) going PPG and Quick playing out of his mind. Without those elite level guys leading the way, I don't think the role players or system are enough to propel those teams to Cup wins.

Wasn't directed at you as much as just a general sentiment that I see around here. Teams just don't often win solely on depth without one or two guys playing at a star level. Going back to the lockout, Anaheim in 2007 is the closest I can find to a team without a clear leader. Every other Cup winning team has had either a forward top 2 in points or a goalie leading in SV%. The difference is a guy like Kane/Kopitar does it consistently and the team flourishes, where Mike Smith comes back to earth and the team becomes irrelevant again. And why a team like Nashville has never been a real threat to make noise despite a fantastic D core.

I know that any type of success here is gonna feel great compared to the last 6 years. But to me, if we're simply aiming to be a playoff team in a league where over half the teams make it, that's pretty disappointing. Whether or not it actually works out, the goal should be Stanley Cups. And that's gonna take an elite forward. Where that comes from I don't know, could be draft or trade. Could be a guy like Skinner/Lindy/JStaal taking a huge step offensively. But somebody needs to be capable of stepping up to that level before we're really contending.

 

[Joe McGrath]

I don't know, to me, this team looks worse since the TDL. Skinner has been a maniac and the top 4 D still look solid, but I don't see these wins being sustainable.

Yep. The results are there, but they look overmatched every night. Granted, they looked like that right before the trade deadline without Faulk too. It would be very interesting to see what things would look like with this set of forwards and a healthy Faulk.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I agree that you don't need an Ovechkin, but you damn sure need top end talent(depending on what your definition of top end means). Since the Canes won the cup there have been 6 teams to win 9 cups. The worst top player on any of those teams was either prime Zdeno Chara or a young Drew Doughty (leaving the goalies out of it). Those guys are top end talents to me. You need much more than top end talent to be successful though, to your point.

LA's top players: Doughty at #2. Kopitar at #11. Carter at #11.

Edmonton: multiple number one picks -- and still in the running for yet another one.

We have a ton of skilled young talent in the pipeline. We have a #5 and a #7 OA in our top 6 right now, and the #7 won a Calder. Are they "elite"? We won't know until they win or not. And then if they win, was it because they were elite all along? Or did the process of learning to win make them elite?

 

[DaveG]

I don't know, to me, this team looks worse since the TDL. Skinner has been a maniac and the top 4 D still look solid, but I don't see these wins being sustainable.

Can't disagree with that too much. The J Staal line is doing its thing as is the Rask line and even the McClement line. But that 3rd pairing with Err Jordan and Murphy is pretty ****** IMHO, not Sanguinetti-Rodney bad but pretty bad. And the other forward line is prettymuch just throwing stuff out there with Nash and hoping it doesn't burn us... so far it hasn't. Thing is the other two forward lines and our top 4 defenders have been good enough that that doesn't matter. And that's with us down our #1 and #2 dmen right now, just ridiculous that we're even coming close to sustaining this.

 

[Ole Gil]

Yep. The results are there, but they look overmatched every night. Granted, they looked like that right before the trade deadline without Faulk too. It would be very interesting to see what things would look like with this set of forwards and a healthy Faulk.

The problem is when Skinner cools off, goals are going to be hard to come by again. The lineup is filled with players who if they scored 10 goals in a season, that'd be a pretty good season. We've seen Gerbe's 3rd and 4th, and McClement's 2nd in a span of 4 games.

I think this goes back to the idea of individual talent. At the end of the day, somebody has to score goals. If everybody is a 10 goal scorer, the math just doesn't add up.

 

[My Special Purpose]

What are the rules for creating GDT threads these days, considering we play an early afternoon game tomorrow.

 

[Finnish Jerk Train]

What are the rules for creating GDT threads these days, considering we play an early afternoon game tomorrow.

Based on the past week or so, I'd say BBA will be creating it no later than 11 hours before puck drop. So look for it to show up around 12:30 or 1 AM.

 

[geehaad]

We have a #5 and a #7 OA in our top 6 right now, and the #7 won a Calder. Are they "elite"? We won't know until they win or not. And then if they win, was it because they were elite all along? Or did the process of learning to win make them elite?

On the other side of that, Detroit's Cup win didn't happen with a bunch of top picks. If "elite" is defined by what they end up as, rather than how they started out, then it's WAY too early to say the Canes don't already have it.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Based on the past week or so, I'd say BBA will be creating it no later than 11 hours before puck drop. So look for it to show up around 12:30 or 1 AM.

Probably closer to 7am as I likely will be sound asleep by 12:30-1.

Look for it in the AM.