Canada's goalie future (Toronto Sun article) why are our goalies so thin now?

[Big Phil]

A Toronto Sun article the other day talking about the future of goaltenders in Canada sort of hit the nail on the head, especially with the World Cup coming up in 2024. Price is basically all but finished by the looks of it, and even so is 35. Fleury is 38. With those two healthy it wasn't looking so bad, at least nothing to be alarmed about. Now? This is where it starts to get thin.

Jordan Binnington, once a Cup winner, but are you comfortable with him as a #1 guy on Team Canada? Darcy Kuemper might be the best pick, and he won a Cup in a sort of a Chris Osgood type of way (a goalie who was good enough to win on a great team without being a huge reason for it). I guess he isn't a horrible choice, but you would think he isn't a guy we ought to hang our hat on either. I think Canada wins with him in net, because we are so stacked in every other position. So he could win in the same way Colorado won, with him playing solid, but not spectacular, even with Vasi on the other side.

Then there is Tristan Jarry, Carter Hart, MacKenzie Blackwood, Matt..................Murray? Oh boy. There aren't a ton of starting Canadian goalies anymore. They mentioned Devon Levi as a goaltending prospect and I guess Sebastian Cossa was picked high in 2021 at #15. But man, there just isn't any star anymore.

Big change from the days when we had to pick between Brodeur, Roy, Belfour and Joseph. That was a good problem. Even Brodeur, Luongo and Fleury in 2010 was strong. In 2014, it was a battle between Price and Luongo. Still very good. In 2016 we had Price, then Holtby who had just won the Vezina, and then Corey Crawford who had just won a couple of Cups. Even then things were looking alright. But now? Just shabby at the moment, and this has never really happened with Canada. We never had a shortage of goaltending talent. Not even in 1972. The likes of Cheevers couldn't play, and I think Giacomin was hurt. But there was still someone like Vachon who was never asked. Plenty of depth. Ditto 1976. Parent and Dryden can't play, but Vachon does. Cheevers a HHOFer sits on the bench, as does Chico Resch, a pretty good talent himself. In 1981 even with Billy Smith hurt, Liut and Edwards were not bad choices. We tend to hold Liut accountable for 1981, but he had just won the Pearson. 1984, 1987, 1991 and even 1996 we still had goalies to pick from. Lots of them. But not now.

I am just wondering how this happened. We used to have a goaltending factory coming out of Quebec. This was based on Roy being in Montreal and young kids copying the butterfly style. It led to a lot of talent out there. Even in 1998, you had Roy, Brodeur, and Joseph. After that you still had Belfour, Fuhr, Potvin, Osgood, etc. to pick from. Right now, maybe Kuemper is the "Osgood" of that group, so at least the 7th stringer on a 1998 team, maybe Osgood was even below that. I think there is a bit of a concern with this and I am wondering who are the goalies that will come out of the woodwork for us in the future. And why aren't we producing them anymore?

TRAIKOS: Carey Price's send off salute another reminder of the void Canada has in net heading into the next Olympics or World Cup

Price should go down behind Ken Dryden, Patrick Roy and Martin Brodeur as one of the greatest to have played the position.

torontosun.com

Click to read more...

 

[JackSlater]

You'd think that Canada would have produced a star since Price just by virtue of the numbers at play. Regardless, something has been wrong for a long time with Canada's production of goaltenders. There hasn't been as much outcry as you'd expect because Canada won all the best on best level tournaments and then there just weren't any. Need to learn what other countries are doing so much better.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

You'd think that Canada would have produced a star since Price just by virtue of the numbers at play. Regardless, something has been wrong for a long time with Canada's production of goaltenders. There hasn't been as much outcry as you'd expect because Canada won all the best on best level tournaments and then there just weren't any. Need to learn what other countries are doing so much better.

Russia seems to be the gold standard now but overall it's not a golden age for the position.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Canada's goaltending development stifled in the 90s and never recovered. I don't know why. We continue to put out HoF forwards and defenseman, but our goalie pool is completely dry.

Since Brodeur (born 1972) we've only generated three HHOF goalies. Luongo, Fleury, and Price. In that same time we've probably generated probably 20 HHOF forwards.

 

[Fixed to Ruin]

Imo, The answer is coaching at the youngest of ages. Unless you go quickly into the higher levels you won't get any support whatsoever.

The position is so technical that most volunteer parents won't have the toolbox to coach a goaltender in his first years.

Goalies at the lowest levels are targets for shooters in practice and take alot of flack when a game goes poorly for them. Eventually, they will lose interest in the position or stagnate in their development.

 

[Big Phil]

Canada's goaltending development stifled in the 90s and never recovered. I don't know why. We continue to put out HoF forwards and defenseman, but our goalie pool is completely dry.

Since Brodeur (born 1972) we've only generated three HHOF goalies. Luongo, Fleury, and Price. In that same time we've probably generated probably 20 HHOF forwards.

Generally, there aren't goalies getting into the HHOF much anyway. That's never changed. In fact, you can go from the time Tretiak gets in back in 1989 and see just how few goalies have gotten in since, regardless of their nationality.

Smith in 1993, Fuhr in 2003, Roy in 2006, Belfour in 2010, Hasek in 2014, Vachon in 2016, Brodeur in 2018 and Luongo in 2022 are the only inductees since. That's not a lot. Strangely, Smith wasn't even a 1st ballot guy. You'd think he would have been in 1992. I suppose 1992 had some other choices and was a full slate already though.

In the future we know Lundqvist is there, Fleury most likely and then Price. Years down the road it will be Vasi for sure. I am not a fan of Bobrovsky to be honest and Quick and Thomas aren't good enough. So generally it is a hard position to crack for the HHOF.

But it isn't about that as much as it is about the elite goalies in the NHL. Sure Fleury won the Vezina in 2021, but you had Holtby in 2016, Price in 2015 and then the end of Brodeur's run in 2008. That's it in 15 years. And how many goalies in the top 10 right now in the NHL are Canadian? Two maybe at best? This just never happened before, we used to have the best of the best and then there was always another country or two with someone like Hasek, or other American goalies who were good. But we always had elite goalies. Now we don't and even though it isn't a banner time for goalies in the NHL right now, the best ones aren't Canadian.

 

[Hockeyholic]

About as bad as it's ever been right now for Canadian goalies.

 

[RorschachWJK]

I don't know...maybe they should ask Marty Brodeur for diet tips?

 

[CamPopplestone]

I think the position is just in a weird spot right now, there are a lot of "good" goalies, but with how technical the position has become, as well as the average forward being much better overall now than in the past (your typical 4th liner now is a lot better than the 4th liners 30 years ago, imo" and I just think it's a position that's hard to stand out in. There's very few "elite" goalies in general now, the position is becoming very lateral

 

[adsfan]

I was there the night that Binnington gave up 7 goals to the Milwaukee Admirals. They passed the puck around and got him going side to side. Then they sniped just inside the posts about 2/3 of the way up to the bar. He couldn't stop many of those shots. The ones he did stop kept the score in single digits. I assume that he has improved with time?

 

[Czechboy]

Is there a nation with more NHL goalies than Canada?

 

[StreetHawk]

Only 64 jobs at the nhl level. Compared to 7/8 Dmen times 32. And forwards at 13/14 per team. So the odds are much lower.

Most mentally tough position.

Expensive for families.

Not as desirable a position to play.

 

[centipede2233]

Only 64 jobs at the nhl level. Compared to 7/8 Dmen times 32. And forwards at 13/14 per team. So the odds are much lower.

Most mentally tough position.

Expensive for families.

Not as desirable a position to play.

I think you hit the nail on the head on expensive for families part. That is likely a main component that is deterring parents in buying expensive goalie equipment. i think there are other factors as well. Over the last 10-15 years there is really 2 things that have really increased, immigration and technology. When I grew up in kingston Ontario, I left in 1998 to go to Vancouver At the age of 22. I never came across one single immigrant in school or in my life. Nowadays, every person I walk by is speaking a foreign language. im seeing a lot of philipinos and East Indians. Are these families putting there kids in hockey, nope. And for technology, with the evolution of computers and smart phones and iPads and online games and in game purchases, kids would rather play hockey on a screen, it’s cheaper, and easier and for most kids it’s a lot more fun.

anyway that’s my 2 cents

 

[chaosrevolver]

All aboard the Gabriel D'Aigle hype train

 

[GermanSpitfire]

It‘s funny that they say that when Canada’s best goalie prospect since Flower is in the QMJHL and winning games as a 15 year old.

 

[Czechboy]

Is there a nation with more NHL goalies than Canada?

So Canada had 42 guys play 1 game in the NHL last year.

19 played 20 or more games.

One of them won the cup.

For contrast:

Czechs had 8 guys
Finns had 11
Swedes had 11
Russia had 11 (a damn strong group)
US had 26

I get it isn't all about volume and there is no 'Makar' or 'McDavid' in the Canadian nets but it's far from bad.

Jarry and Kuemper were top 6 last year in Save Percentage and both played over 50 games.

Amazingly the third best goalie for save percentage (min 20 games) was Mike Smith. I would've never guessed that. Good for you Mike... enjoy LTIR

 

[theVladiator]

I do not think Canada is falling behind, it's just other countries are catching up. Specifically, US shows just explosive hockey talent growth in all areas, and Russia just used to be extremely goalie poor for some inexplicable reason.

Special talents (Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, perhaps also Price and Vasilevsky) is just pure lottery luck.

To add to @Czechboy 's stats, I figured I'd add the counts for goalies with 35+ games (trying to capture just starters and platooners). Backups matter less I think.

USA: 9
Canada: 8
Russia: 5
Sweden: 4
Finland: 3
Czechia: 2
Germany: 1
Latvia: 1

 

[StreetHawk]

I think you hit the nail on the head on expensive for families part. That is likely a main component that is deterring parents in buying expensive goalie equipment. i think there are other factors as well. Over the last 10-15 years there is really 2 things that have really increased, immigration and technology. When I grew up in kingston Ontario, I left in 1998 to go to Vancouver At the age of 22. I never came across one single immigrant in school or in my life. Nowadays, every person I walk by is speaking a foreign language. im seeing a lot of philipinos and East Indians. Are these families putting there kids in hockey, nope. And for technology, with the evolution of computers and smart phones and iPads and online games and in game purchases, kids would rather play hockey on a screen, it’s cheaper, and easier and for most kids it’s a lot more fun.

anyway that’s my 2 cents

Consider it similar to the RB position in Football or MLB pitchers. If you are a teen, follow the money as well.

RB - most beat up position and it doesn't get paid. Easier to replace than other positions that they could play. So, those teenagers who were great RBs may decide to switch to slot WR or slot CB if they are sub 6 feet. If taller like a Petersen type, swap to WR or secondary. They get paid more and last longer to make money.

MLB - with Free Agency rules and how analytics have changed the game, it's not the most glamourous or highly paid position (for term). Plus the injury concerns. Won't bring a pitcher up until they are ready so, likely 22-24 most likely, unless they are very good early. Free agent at around age 30. With that many pitches under your belt, teams don't look to give you the David Price 10 year contract anymore. Will pay 4/5 year deals. Kershaw, more dominant in his 20's but by the time he hit his free agency years had some injury issues and thus doesn't get that Harper/Machado type long term deal. Paid well on an annual basis, but not long term.

Goalies, the typical route for a Canadian is CHL until 20. AHL for pretty much all of your 3 years of ELC until 23. Maybe in year 3 you get the backup role. Look at the goalie pay scale now. Bob at 10, Vasi at 9.5. Price is on the way out. For all of the sub 30 year olds, the next highest is what like Gibson at $6.4?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

It‘s funny that they say that when Canada’s best goalie prospect since Flower is in the QMJHL and winning games as a 15 year old.

If you're already hanging your hat on a 15-year-old to save things, that pretty much confirms that there's an issue.

A lot can happen to any prospect - and especially to a goaltending prospect - between age 15 and their productive elite career.

 

[GermanSpitfire]

If you're already hanging your hat on a 15-year-old to save things, that pretty much confirms that there's an issue.

Maybe, but there is a reason he went second overall in the most recent QMJHL draft and has been talked about at length as the potential “next one“ of Goalie prospects since he was 12/13.

 

[krown]

I posted this in the D'aigle thread in the prospects forum:

Saving Canadian hockey from a goalie crisis

Cole Harbour produced shot-making stars like Sidney Crosby and Nathan MacKinnon, but now, in a goalie shortage, the area's trying something new to make some great shot stoppers.

www.thecoast.ca

I am a goalie dad in minor hockey and this article is exactly why Canada is in a decline in producing elite goaltenders. I see it in my own minor hockey association, which prides itself on being an elite hockey club.

 

[Czechboy]

I posted this in the D'aigle thread in the prospects forum:

Saving Canadian hockey from a goalie crisis

Cole Harbour produced shot-making stars like Sidney Crosby and Nathan MacKinnon, but now, in a goalie shortage, the area's trying something new to make some great shot stoppers.

www.thecoast.ca

I am a goalie dad in minor hockey and this article is exactly why Canada is in a decline in producing elite goaltenders. I see it in my own minor hockey association, which prides itself on being an elite hockey club.

That's a great article... this part is very true:

Even though goalie parents pay registration fees the same as skaters, they usually have to pay for extra goalie coaching because, from the youngest age groups to the NHL, hockey practice is designed for skaters, not goalies.

If we're talking house league and under 10.. the goalies have very little to do out there at practice (and sometimes a game). I avoided it like the plague with my boy.

The Bell Let's talk stuff was on point too.lol 'We pretend to care for a day'.haha

 

[krown]

Ian Clark (the goalie coach for the Canucks) and his family are members of my minor hockey association, and one of his sons is playing U15 now as a goalie (naturally). He did a presentation for all the goalie families this spring, and brought Thatcher Demko in with him to help with his talk. One of the biggest tips Clark and Demko gave our young goalies was that during practice, "you're your own coach". Recognizing the fact that at team practices, they will get little to no coaching or instruction, the onus is on them to not only to recognize the mistakes they are making, but to correct them by themselves as well. That's pretty sad.

 

[StreetHawk]

Ian Clark (the goalie coach for the Canucks) and his family are members of my minor hockey association, and one of his sons is playing U15 now as a goalie (naturally). He did a presentation for all the goalie families this spring, and brought Thatcher Demko in with him to help with his talk. One of the biggest tips Clark and Demko gave our young goalies was that during practice, "you're your own coach". Recognizing the fact that at team practices, they will get little to no coaching or instruction, the onus is on them to not only to recognize the mistakes they are making, but to correct them by themselves as well. That's pretty sad.

Limited number of coaches who have played the position. Have to maximize your time with all the other skaters.

I mean if only 10% of the 64 goalies on an nhl team opt to be coaches one day, that’s 6.5 guys. There is like 21 by 32 so skaters so over 650 skaters thus 65 coaches for those same number of minor league teams.

Do the same thing with guys who stop along the way. Just not going to be enough coaches to go around.

 

[nergish]

Ian Clark (the goalie coach for the Canucks) and his family are members of my minor hockey association, and one of his sons is playing U15 now as a goalie (naturally). He did a presentation for all the goalie families this spring, and brought Thatcher Demko in with him to help with his talk. One of the biggest tips Clark and Demko gave our young goalies was that during practice, "you're your own coach". Recognizing the fact that at team practices, they will get little to no coaching or instruction, the onus is on them to not only to recognize the mistakes they are making, but to correct them by themselves as well. That's pretty sad.

That's pretty cool!
Thatcher being an ice hockey goaltender from San Diego definitely knows a thing or two about figuring it out on his own.

In the early 2000s when I was learning to play goal, things were starting to get far more technical very quickly. It really was a treat to come up at that time, when the position was evolving so rapidly. I was even asked by the PE teacher in middle school to run a "goalie clinic", just so that our school floor hockey games would be more competitive. The kids that I worked with ended up really enjoying playing goal, and were markedly improved for our games.

Everybody understands the basic concept of playing goal - you just block the net. But it's a very technical position, and learning how to find your own style while using proper technique can make things a lot more fun. As sad as it is, though - you do need to have a serious passion to be able to be "your own coach". Most kids won't get there without having some formal training early on to make things stick.