Canada wants to limit Americans playing in the CHL?

[triggrman]

Then how do you explain the limits on the number of non-Americans in the Major Soccer League? I think it's four per team. What may not be allowed within the public at large doesn't necessarily hold in specialized areas like sport or the military, where for instance people have been discharged because of sexual orientation.

It just hasn't been challenged yet, if someone does, they'll lose.

As far as homosexuals in the army. Isn't that what brought out the change in the policy to "Don't ask, don't tell"?

 

[xander]

I heard an interview with some honcho from the dub on this very thing. Hopefully someone will correct me if my memory is a tad off....

This whole thing is intended moreso as a pressure point on the NCAA.

The CHL and NCAA have butted heads for quite a while over the "Amateur VS Professional" debate. The honcho said that the Amateur vs Professional thing was apparently fabricated to deter Canadian kids from taking up NCAA spots. They didn't want players taking their shot in the CHL and the going over to the NCAA if it didn't pan out because they felt that based on talent, their rosters would end up being dominated by Canadian kids and therefore hurting the chances of US born players to play in the NCAA...or something to that effect.

The CHL is saying that this is nothing more than an artificial limitation on imports against Canadians.

Therefore the CHL is contending that with American born players taking up roster spots in the CHL, there are Canadian born players that are left out of their chance to develop. The CHL also maintains that one of the top mandates for all of their leagues is to enhance development and on that basis Canadian born players are/should be their priorities (I think most or all of the leagues have now limited European players based on this).

Soooo, the CHL is saying - if the US's top development leagues (NCAA) are limiting Canadian players then our top development leagues have the right to limit US born players on their roster, they want to protect the interest's of their own so to speak -

The NCAA says that they're not a development league but strictly an Amateur league and that the CHL is considered professional hockey so there isn't anything to discuss. However at the same time there is apparently some US jr leagues (or a league) that operates the same as the CHL leagues but their players are still elligible for NCAA programs.

And pissing match goes on....

As I said, I am going of memory so hopefully someone will clarify if I am off a bit but in general this thing is more about politics between the CHL and NCAA with the worst case scenario being that a few more Canadian born players get their shot at continuing their development.....

The amateur/profesional thing holds for all NCAA sports, not just hockey. If hockey canada thinks the NCAA upholds this rule just to keep canadian players out of college hockey then they're being pretty paranoid. Why would the NCAA put a rule in place that effects all it's sports, including football and basketball, which bring in alot more money for the NCAA than hockey does, just to ensure that a few canadians can't play? Every year a school is put on probation for giving finacial benefits to it's football or basketball players, why would the NCAA go through all this hassel just for hockey?

 

[copperandblue]

The amateur/profesional thing holds for all NCAA sports, not just hockey. If hockey canada thinks the NCAA upholds this rule just to keep canadian players out of college hockey then they're being pretty paranoid. Why would the NCAA put a rule in place that effects all it's sports, including football and basketball, which bring in alot more money for the NCAA than hockey does, just to ensure that a few canadians can't play? Every year a school is put on probation for giving finacial benefits to it's football or basketball players, why would the NCAA go through all this hassel just for hockey?

I don't know, as I said I am not a student of the topic I was just relaying what I recalled from an interview.

The gist of what I got from it was that the rule was initiated out of their hockey program.

Out of curiosity in terms of Football and Basketball are there jr leagues in the US that would be equal to the major jr programs for hockey up here? I was always under the assumption that for these sports the players were recruited out of high school programs to college programs and then were drafted only out of the NCAA....

 

[xander]

I don't know, as I said I am not a student of the topic I was just relaying what I recalled from an interview.

The gist of what I got from it was that the rule was initiated out of their hockey program.

Out of curiosity in terms of Football and Basketball are there jr leagues in the US that would be equal to the major jr programs for hockey up here? I was always under the assumption that for these sports the players were recruited out of high school programs to college programs and then were drafted only out of the NCAA....

no, there really arn't, not for basketball or football. Now the baseball minor league system is extreemly extensive, but baseball is, perhaps, an even smaller college sport than hockey is. The two big college sports, basketball and football, don't really have any viable competitors.

 

[copperandblue]

no, there really arn't, not for basketball or football. Now the baseball minor league system is extreemly extensive, but baseball is, perhaps, an even smaller college sport than hockey is. The two big college sports, basketball and football, don't really have any viable competitors.

Cool, thanks.

Wouldn't that suggest then, that irregardless of wether the rules apply accross the board, only Hockey and I suspect Baseball would be affected by it?

 

[Epsilon]

Cool, thanks.

Wouldn't that suggest then, that irregardless of wether the rules apply accross the board, only Hockey and I suspect Baseball would be affected by it?

It affects other sports as well, in particular multi-sport athletes. For instance, a football player for I believe Colorado was banned from playing football because he takes sponsorship money as a skier to finance his ski training and competitions.

 

[xander]

football and basketball are actually affected more than the other sports becouse they bring in the most money, and thus players often feel that they should be compensated for generating the income. NCAA basketball and football has been plagued with under the table compensation scandals, where colleges or agents give money or favors to top players off the record. It seems that every year a school gets reprimanded for giving out payouts or for improper recruiting methods.

 

[xander]

It affects other sports as well, in particular multi-sport athletes. For instance, a football player for I believe Colorado was banned from playing football because he takes sponsorship money as a skier to finance his ski training and competitions.

yeah, jeremy bloom. no great loss, I always thought the guy was overrated. He's a rare case though, the problem has really been with player getting paid under the table, maurice clarret being the most recent example.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Personally, I'd disagree with this notion. In particular, I watch the CHL, and having European and American star players does not hurt. For instance in Vancouver with the Giants, we have guys like Marek Schwartz and Andrej Meszaros on the team, two blue-chip NHL prospects who make the games entertaining and the teams better. Keeping it exclusively Canadian, and closing the door on some better American and European players to use some other Canadian players who may not be as good, would lessen the overall entertainment value of the leagues, IMHO.

Keeping letting American and European players play, is my opinion. Don't limit them and close doors.

~Canucklehead~

 

[copperandblue]

football and basketball are actually affected more than the other sports becouse they bring in the most money, and thus players often feel that they should be compensated for generating the income. NCAA basketball and football has been plagued with under the table compensation scandals, where colleges or agents give money or favors to top players off the record. It seems that every year a school gets reprimanded for giving out payouts or for improper recruiting methods.

That's an interesting angle to it.

I am not really invested in the topic as I don't really care one way or another what the CHL does but interms of your examples, isn't it arguing apples and oranges?

The violations that you site are violations made by the school's themselves. The issue in question regarding hockey isn't wether or not the players get compensated while playing in the NCAA but the fact that they had a living allowance prior to entering the NCAA.

I guess a blanket ruling could cover both but it doesn't seem like the same thing in principle.....

I dunno maybe I can see it a little from both sides....

 

[xander]

well, the issue is that the NCAA thinks that all it's athletes should be noble scholar-athletes, competing only for love of the game and pride of they're school. This is the way, i beleive, the NCAA has always been, they've never allowed athletes to be paid and they consider any athlete that's been paid for playing a sport to be a profesional.

Now whether this is an unrealistic goal is very debateable, but I don't think you can make the argument (and I'm not saying that you are, copperandblue, I know you where just relaying someone else's words) that the NCAA has constructed and upheld this philosophy just to screw over canadian hockey players.

 

[BigE]

:lol

You don't seriously believe that do you? Who are these guys "waiting in the wings" in junior B that are just as talented as guys like Schremp, O'Sullivan, Lashoff, Meszaros, Schwarz, and all the other foreigners playing in the CHL?

Lets put it this way; the rest of the world would lose a great deal more than Canada, if the CHL decided to limit the amount of foreign players playing in the league. In fact, I believe that Canada, itself, would probably gain from this.

If Schremp had never played in the OHL, would you have realized what you're missing? Probably not. The real question is, do players like Schremp and Schwarz really add that much entertainment value, competitive value and developemental value to the league? The answer is no, they do not - one could argue, as I have done that they hinder the developement of Canadian born players in favour of those from another country, who at the time might be more skilled.

Go watch a CJAHL game, there are a ton of kids, who for one reason or another didn't get a shot. Some of them could have gone on to fill the role that a guy like Schremp or O'Sullivan have taken.

Consider this, you're a 17 year old goalie in the Vancouver Giants organization. You've been penciled in for one of two jobs, with the club next year but wait, they've just drafted Schwarz and brought him over. How do you feel? This is no different than an NHL player going and taking the job of a European - now maybe you don't have a problem with that but I, and many others, certainly do.

 

[VOB]

Go watch a CJAHL game, there are a ton of kids, who for one reason or another didn't get a shot. Some of them could have gone on to fill the role that a guy like Schremp or O'Sullivan have taken.

Leagues such as the CJHL and their ilk have been scoured and picked over by legions of OHL scouts and I can assure you that Robbie Schremp type players are not just a rarity in those leagues but simply do not exist period! You are talking about elite players and such players are irreplaceable and it would be the high point of both arrogance and ignorance to ban such players based on their nationality!

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Lets put it this way; the rest of the world would lose a great deal more than Canada, if the CHL decided to limit the amount of foreign players playing in the league. In fact, I believe that Canada, itself, would probably gain from this.

If Schremp had never played in the OHL, would you have realized what you're missing? Probably not. The real question is, do players like Schremp and Schwarz really add that much entertainment value, competitive value and developemental value to the league? The answer is no, they do not - one could argue, as I have done that they hinder the developement of Canadian born players in favour of those from another country, who at the time might be more skilled.

Go watch a CJAHL game, there are a ton of kids, who for one reason or another didn't get a shot. Some of them could have gone on to fill the role that a guy like Schremp or O'Sullivan have taken.

Consider this, you're a 17 year old goalie in the Vancouver Giants organization. You've been penciled in for one of two jobs, with the club next year but wait, they've just drafted Schwarz and brought him over. How do you feel? This is no different than an NHL player going and taking the job of a European - now maybe you don't have a problem with that but I, and many others, certainly do.

Get rid of all the U.S. based CHL teams and you have a point. The fact is, the CHL is completely Canadian in name only. As VOB mentioned, the elite American and European players that dot the CHL rosters don't grow on trees, and it would be a loss if those types of players were reduced in number or eliminated. The arrogance of some people around here really astounds me from time to time.

 

[nomorekids]

well, i think it's silly. There are tons of couldn't-hack-it canadians in the USHL. Should the USHL appeal to restrict Canadians from playing there? There would be an uproar. The CHL likes its American talent because...if they're willing to go there...who wouldn't want one more star player? Back in the day...the guys like Scott Gomez, David Legwand, Mike Modano, Pat Lafontaine...and more recently..Pat O'Sullivan, Robbie Schremp, Bobby Ryan, etc etc. The league is, like anything else, above all a way to make money, like it or not..and if your options are an American with top notch skills...or a kid that's not as skilled..but he's Canadian...there's no OBLIGATION to take the Canadian. It's a silly gripe, but I'm not concerned, because it simply won't happen.

 

[Boomhower]

This topic again?

I don't think it will ever happen, nor should it.
Even if ony for selfish reasons, I mean the more players they have to draw upon, the more depth there is in the league, the more depth there is brings the calibre of play to a higher and more competitive level.

Canada should not want the CHL to become watered down, because the higher level of play, will better prepare the superstar players for a pro future.

 

[QuickDynamite]

I don't have a problem with it. They are trying to keep Candian talent strong. To be honest, I could care less about the devlopment of US and European players. Should I?

 

[Lowetide]

What league, what sport would discourage the ongoing improvement and development of the quality and skill of their product? Does anyone seriously believe that a skill downsize will benefit these kids?

This is one weird idea and I would have hoped a rational voice would have been raised at the executive level. Very poor leadership is the only way an idea like this has legs.

 

[Hasbro]

It affects other sports as well, in particular multi-sport athletes. For instance, a football player for I believe Colorado was banned from playing football because he takes sponsorship money as a skier to finance his ski training and competitions.

Yeah Jeremy Bloom. He skied on his owen dime for two years and then took his case to the NCAA. the NCAA has strict regulations for outside income.

The NCAA is just plain stupid. They are the largest proponents of outdated victorian ideals of ametuerism.

 

[xander]

where are you in boulder hasbro?

 

[VOB]

I don't have a problem with it. They are trying to keep Candian talent strong. To be honest, I could care less about the devlopment of US and European players. Should I?

The only problem though is that it would not keep Canadain talent strong as they would not be playing with the best and against the best from the rest of the world. If it were up to me I would lift the cap that currently limits each team to two European players.

One thing that wasn't mentioned on ESPN's article on how srewy U.S.A. Hockey is organized (and thus the lack of medals) is that Junior leagues in the U.S. are limited to only two imported players per team and those imports include Canadians! This is why leagues such as the USHL and the NAHL will never attain the level of play and competition as the CHL. The NCAA, for all its stupidity and faults has at least recognized the fact that opening up their rosters to the world can only make the product better.

 

[Bruno8]

Makes no sense - lets get the best NA players into Junior A. Besides, nobody seems to complain when some Canadian kid gets a US scholarship. I believe there is a 2 player limit on Europeans already in all 3 leagues, but I may be wrong.

Anybody know what team has the most US players on it now, and how many?

I believe Quebec Remparts have 6 US players on their roster.
It's actually not worth getting excited over. The CHL has US based teams in each league. It wouldn't even begin to make sense to restrict American players while trying to gain a fan-base in The States at the same time. It's not like many Canadian players are losing their jobs to Americans. Few US kids go to the CHL as it is, to put restrictions on those few would be idiotic.

 

[Hasbro]

where are you in boulder hasbro?

30th and Colorado. You?

 

[xander]

I'm on campus, sewall hall.

 

[arnie]

Did anyone else read this Damien Cox article over on ESPN.com today? It's about Hockey Canada "thinking" about limiting the number of Americans playing in the CHL.

IMO, I think it would be bad for the CHL from the perspective that there are some very talented Americans such as Robbie Schremp and Matt Lashoff that the CHL would miss out on should they decide to make and impose the change. The CHL (I would assume) wants to get their hands on the very best players out there, regardless of where they come from, making it not only a prestigious developmental league for the NHL but also the level of competition would remain at its highest.

Anyone else have an opinion on this article?

It's just more proof that the Canadians are the pettiest people on earth. The US colleges opens its door to Canadian hockey, basketball and football players and the Canadian whine about having a few Americans. Likewise, they keep Europeans out of junior and then go over to Europe and take hockey jobs away from the locals.

They really are a petty, whiney bunch.