Rumor: Cam Robinson - Tuch Availability

[Tatanka]

The GM basically did, when you say things like "it takes an overpayment." You know what that means to other GMs? "Keep your player."

It's quite clear that this mix of coach and players isn't working. It's also quite clear that finishing bottom 10 for the last 10+ years hasn't worked either. Maybe, just maybe, try to change up the mix a bit with a "fair deal" with another team?

That *is* the only other alternative. Sometimes, a simple deal in talent for talent can invigorate a team to success - but Sabres' consistently hold the position of "Our players are uber talented and require overpayments, and we have an amazing prospect pool of potential superstars who we can't/won't/choose not to trade for help."

Either 1) The Sabres players and prospects are not as good as they think and are overvalued or 2) They haven't had the right mix of players to guide them on how to win in the NHL.

I personally believe it's #2. Sometimes, it's actually better to lose in talent and win in ethic in the right trade. It's something fans don't often get, because we only see on-ice products - not behind the scenes.

It's why we flip out at GMs in trading for culture, or hard work types.

I believe the Buffalo Sabres are indeed ultra talented - but they need to stop trying to trade for more talent - because every thing I constantly see in these threads is "we want to package Tuch and get a better C." News flash - the Sabres are sitting on an on paper roster that is far more talented than the 10-15 teams around them, and are still at the bottom of that heap. It's not "more talent" that's needed.

Just my $.02.

I think you would get little argument from most Sabres fans that the mix needs to be tweaked. Most agree that adding experienced NHL players is needed. Trading one of those for less experienced prospects and futures does not fix the mix. Playoff bound teams do not want to subtract from their roster they want to add to it. Thus the objectives of both sides are at odds. Tuch could be made available for a top rhd. Do you think Tampa wants to give one up before the playoffs? I don't. A two way top 6 C? I just don't see Tampa wanting to shuffle their roster at this time. That is what most Sabres fans are saying. What we need in return, it doesn't make sense to pay. Now there are UFAs available for the reason that has been cited...they are not under contract after this year and no one is saying they are too good to trade. Tuch isn't a UFA so it will take a hockey trade.

 

[kanucks25]

Well if they had that option why wouldn't Kevyn do that trade now? We have more than enough picks and prospects to do a deal like that with no need of Tampas prospects.

Working under the notion that Tuch has asked out and Buffalo is willing to grant him his wish.

If he doesn't want out then yeah, no reason for Buffalo to trade him and this thread is pointless.

 

[Beerz]

Working under the notion that Tuch has asked out and Buffalo is willing to grant him his wish.

If he doesn't want out then yeah, no reason for Buffalo to trade him and this thread is pointless.

Thank you! Obviously if Tuch has asked out you trade him for what you can get... there is no indication that is the case.

 

[Weltschmerz]

If Adams can collect high value draft capital and young assets by moving off current players who are clearly only contributing to their current losing he’s got to do it. Then he can use those picks and prospects collected to trade for experienced players to retool his club. If Adams is stuck on only player for player moves he’s not taking advantage of opportunity and really isn’t doing a good job.

Or they could just use the picks and prospects the already have to get those players and add to what they have.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

If Tuch does want out I could see Tampa all over it.

But the Cirelli talk is insane, they are not going to swap out one of their important vets, they are trying to add.

So if he's being traded to Tampa it will need to be for picks & prospects that Buffalo will flip for immediate help.

Siblings in Christ:

If the Sabres could flip picks and prospects for immediate help they would. There aren't a lot of good veterans hanging out on building teams right now. What few exist have trade protections.

 

[Weltschmerz]

Cirelli has not played much with Kucherov at all, and Kucherov is not much of a factor in his success. I don't think there's a deal to be made here, but to act like Cirelli doesn't have more trade value than Tuch given his production offensively and defensively is equal or better, he's younger, he's on a team friendly deal for many years, and he's been an integral part of three trips to the Cup final? Well, I think it's a little silly. View attachment 985779

After Hagel he is the forward he played the most time with. Start of the season it was Geekie but he is in the AHL now.

 

[boltsfan86]

After Hagel he is the forward he played the most time with. Start of the season it was Geekie but he is in the AHL now.

Doesn't really change the fact that he's played only ~30% with him. That's not nearly enough to point at him and say "this guy is only putting up the numbers he is because of Kucherov." Hagel is the real factor in Cirelli's production and probably vice versa.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Cirelli has not played much with Kucherov at all, and Kucherov is not much of a factor in his success. I don't think there's a deal to be made here, but to act like Cirelli doesn't have more trade value than Tuch given his production offensively and defensively is equal or better, he's younger, he's on a team friendly deal for many years, and he's been an integral part of three trips to the Cup final? Well, I think it's a little silly. View attachment 985779

Hasn't played much at all = His 2nd most common linemate. He's played a third of his minutes with him.

Your chart shows he's a negative Corsi and Fenwick player w/o Kucherov. I will grant you that's probably due to different deployment.

 

[Weltschmerz]

Doesn't really change the fact that he's played only ~30% with him. That's not nearly enough to point at him and say "this guy is only putting up the numbers he is because of Kucherov." Hagel is the real factor in Cirelli's production and probably vice versa.

I never said that, I said he plays with Kucherov and even if it is only a third of his time he played with one of the top scorers of the NHL it certainly doesn't hurt his numbers.

 

[boltsfan86]

Hasn't played much at all = His 2nd most common linemate. He's played a third of his minutes with him.

Your chart shows he's a negative Corsi and Fenwick player w/o Kucherov. I will grant you that's probably due to different deployment.

The reason for that is because TB lacks a true second line RW and they have had to mix and match all year with Geekie, Gage Goncalves, even Cam Atkinson and Zemgus Girgensons. Not because Cirelli and Kucherov play much together by design. In fact I doubt they even have a double-digit number of "starts" together, it's probably a lot of Kucherov staying out past the end of the first line's shift. I get what you're saying but that says more about how the second line is really just Hagel-Cirelli-fill in the blank with some random guy than it does about Kuch playing a ton with Cirelli

I never said that, I said he plays with Kucherov and even if it is only a third of his time he played with one of the top scorers of the NHL it certainly doesn't hurt his numbers.

Regardless, the main point is that Cirelli for Tuch is a trade that would hurt the Lightning badly, and that's part of why I don't see a trade that meets Buffalo's perceived needs. Brisebois would need to hope Kevyn Adams accidentally hits "accept" to get this deal done.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

The reason for that is because TB lacks a true second line RW and they have had to mix and match all year with Geekie, Gage Goncalves, even Cam Atkinson and Zemgus Girgensons. Not because Cirelli and Kucherov play much together by design. In fact I doubt they even have a double-digit number of "starts" together, it's probably a lot of Kucherov staying out past the end of the first line's shift. I get what you're saying but that says more about how the second line is really just Hagel-Cirelli-fill in the blank with some random guy than it does about Kuch playing a ton with Cirelli


Regardless, the main point is that Cirelli for Tuch is a trade that would hurt the Lightning badly, and that's part of why I don't see a trade that meets Buffalo's perceived needs. Brisebois would need to hope Kevyn Adams accidentally hits "accept" to get this deal done.

300 minutes of shift overhang? Put me down for doubt.

Tampa pairs them in offensive situations, I'd guess more at home particularly if they're trailing; and they are absolutely CRUSHING it. 73% GF, 77 xGF% over 180 minutes with Hagel tagging along.

Unless they're almost exclusively using this to attack mismatches Tampa should seriously consider making it their top line. It's the best NHL line by a fair amount (50+ minutes)

 

[Ace]

This. Thread. Is. A. Waste. Of. Time.

Working under the notion that Tuch has asked out and Buffalo is willing to grant him his wish.

If he doesn't want out then yeah, no reason for Buffalo to trade him and this thread is pointless.

The thread has been f***ing pointless from word one.

 

[Hint1k]

That is what most Sabres fans are saying.

They saying nonsense of the highest order.

At least make it funny. Ask Kucherov, Hedman and Vasilevsky for Tuch.

 

[5 Minute Major]

View attachment 985776

Sorry Buffalo isn’t doing what you want them to.

You may not like what he says but it makes perfect sense. You don’t pigeonhole yourself and Adams is about to do that if what is being reported is believable.

 

[HSF]

Batherson for Tuch

 

[TageGod]

No one is going to make an offer good enough for them to move Tuch.

 

[tantalum]

I think it makes sense for Buffalo to move Tuch if they don't feel they can get him signed to an extension (and honestly why would he sign with the Sabres?). He's on a reasonable deal for another year and brings something that all teams want. Provided Adams isn't stubborn in the type of return he gets (assets are assets) Tuch can bring back a pretty damn good haul.

Sabres need a lot more than tweaking around the edges. They do need to seriously consider getting value for players that will be UFA this summer and next.

 

[Ace]

You may not like what he says but it makes perfect sense. You don’t pigeonhole yourself and Adams is about to do that if what is being reported is believable.

Hard disagree.

If Adams could turn futures into players…he would. He has futures. He needs players.

He can’t do it.

He’s already pigeonholed.

 

[Fjordsen]

You may not like what he says but it makes perfect sense. You don’t pigeonhole yourself and Adams is about to do that if what is being reported is believable.

This doesn't make any sense, why would we trade our best players when we can't trade for anyone anyway because of the trade protection and no one is going to Buffalo. We need to act in a completely different way.

 

[is the answer jesus]

Cirelli has not played much with Kucherov at all, and Kucherov is not much of a factor in his success. I don't think there's a deal to be made here, but to act like Cirelli doesn't have more trade value than Tuch given his production offensively and defensively is equal or better, he's younger, he's on a team friendly deal for many years, and he's been an integral part of three trips to the Cup final? Well, I think it's a little silly. View attachment 985779

I don't deny that Cirelli has more value given his position and the contracts involved. That said, compare the offensive production over the last several seasons between Tuch and Cirelli and it's not even close. Tuch blows him out of the water. This is all a moot point point though. TB isn't moving Cirelli.

 

[Ace]

I think it makes sense for Buffalo to move Tuch if they don't feel they can get him signed to an extension (and honestly why would he sign with the Sabres?). He's on a reasonable deal for another year and brings something that all teams want. Provided Adams isn't stubborn in the type of return he gets (assets are assets) Tuch can bring back a pretty damn good haul.

Sabres need a lot more than tweaking around the edges. They do need to seriously consider getting value for players that will be UFA this summer and next.

Just skipped all 12 f***ing pages to post this huh?

THEY WONT TRADE HIM FOR PICKS AND PROSPECTS

 

[tantalum]

Just skipped all 12 f***ing pages to post this huh?

THEY WONT TRADE HIM FOR PICKS AND PROSPECTS

I know what Adams is saying. Could be posturing or could be reality. If he was realist he'd look to get the best deal he can asset wise and then utilize those assets to get what he wants if it's not picks/prospects he wants. Don't treat each deal as if it's in a vacuum, because they aren't. Things are interconnected. GMs who can't think that way are GMs that struggle.

If an extension is unlikely, which I suspect it is given Tuch will be looking to cash in on a final deal while still at/near his peak, then they should be exploring moving him for the best deal possible asset wise. Could be this deadline, could be the summer, could be next deadline.

The question actually is this: "Is Adams a GM that is able to build a team? Is he able to use assets to get what he wants? Is what he wants actually what he needs?" The data suggests not.

 

[boltsfan86]

I don't deny that Cirelli has more value given his position and the contracts involved. That said, compare the offensive production over the last several seasons between Tuch and Cirelli and it's not even close. Tuch blows him out of the water. This is all a moot point point though. TB isn't moving Cirelli.

Agreed on all points

 

[Fjordsen]

I know what Adams is saying. Could be posturing or could be reality. If he was realist he'd look to get the best deal he can asset wise and then utilize those assets to get what he wants if it's not picks/prospects he wants. Don't treat each deal as if it's in a vacuum. If an extension is unlikely, which I suspect it is given Tuch will be looking to cash in on a final deal while still at/near his peak, then they should be exploring moving him for the best deal possible asset wise. Could be this deadline, could be the summer, could be next deadline.

Why is his extension unlikely? He is a Buffalo fan, he wants to be in Buffalo, what is stopping him from signing a new deal? And there is no point in trading him at all, we need more like him.

I also like how some people say we can flip assets for someone else, who? Almost all of these guys have trade protection and are not going to Buffalo, and the team doesn't want to trade other strong players. We need to hold on to our experienced core and add 3-4 good players to the roster, we have plenty of assets to trade, but our GM is a coward and the owner is a clown.

 

[Zman5778]

You may not like what he says but it makes perfect sense. You don’t pigeonhole yourself and Adams is about to do that if what is being reported is believable.

Adams has already pigeon-holed himself for this deadline. Contenders want to add legit players for futures. Teams out of it (which are few) don't really have what we're looking for.

Buffalo isn't going to do much at all at the deadline. We probably sell Jokiharju for a pick. Maybe we sell Zucker and/or Greenway if they don't re-sign.

But Buffalo isn't doing a hockey deal this deadline, I don't think.

Maybe Kevyn will find one over the summer. Maybe.