Calling Back Goals Based on Missed Offsides...

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"It's close enough!" Okay, does the puck crossing over the goal line 50% count? I mean, it's only an inch or two, that's close enough? Right?
 

Pablo El Perro

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HFBoards: The NHL needs to do something to improve officiating!
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"It's close enough!" Okay, does the puck crossing over the goal line 50% count? I mean, it's only an inch or two, that's close enough? Right?

HFBoards: The NHL needs to do something to improve officiating!
NHL: To help with that, we implemented a review to ensure the rules are properly enforced.
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"It's close enough!" Okay, does the puck crossing over the goal line 50% count? I mean, it's only an inch or two, that's close enough? Right?
Thanks for contributing
 
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Golden_Jet

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If the end result is where the puck is dropped, again, yes it does happen, and it's not terrible. Just accepted practice. I don't know whether you are being intentional in misunderstanding this for some purist sports thing or not.
Lmao, coming from the guy who said all along this was facetious.
Probably the reason you said you were being facetious was because you knew it was dumb idea.
 

Pablo El Perro

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Lmao, coming from the guy who said all along this was facetious.
Probably the reason you said you were being facetious was because you knew it was dumb idea.
That's a lot for two sentences that say next to nothing. Not sure where to begin without the help of a speak-snd-spell. But I'll give it a go.

It's an easy solution, as there's already a precedent with mistaken icing calls. Those result in changing where the puck is dropped after the play is dead. Simple enough.

Regarding being facetious, by stressing that I was trying to point out a discrepancy between how seriously the league takes missed offside calls and incorrect offside calls. In sum, if an infraction is so serious that it can result in a goal being called back a minute or two after said infraction, because it kind of led to said goal, you'd think they'd want to correct for the opposite result, calling that infraction incorrectly when it could easily lead to a goal.

The first paragraph and the second don't really require each other for support.
 
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tarheelhockey

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Feb 12, 2010
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HFBoards: The NHL needs to do something to improve officiating!
NHL: To help with that, we implemented a review to ensure the rules are properly enforced.
HFBoards: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"It's close enough!" Okay, does the puck crossing over the goal line 50% count? I mean, it's only an inch or two, that's close enough? Right?

Seriously though, the unfolding disaster that is offside review should be a cautionary tale for people saying they want officials up in the stands calling every little thing they see.

Hockey was never meant to be officiated with a microscope. The more we press for some sort of objective perfection, the worse the quality of the game will be.
 

Pablo El Perro

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Seriously though, the unfolding disaster that is offside review should be a cautionary tale for people saying they want officials up in the stands calling every little thing they see.

Hockey was never meant to be officiated with a microscope. The more we press for some sort of objective perfection, the worse the quality of the game will be.
There's obvious solutions between what we have and a more reasonable challenge, and it's not objective perfection. But that just won't happen.
 
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nturn06

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Nov 9, 2017
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Easy fix to the rule

*Only goals scored within the first ten seconds of the missed offsides can be over turned.

Anything outside that is allowed, as the defending team had time to recover, and no clear advantage from the missed off sides was used to score.
And then people are going to complain when the refs will spend 5 minutes to figure out wheter the goal was scored 10 second or 10.04 second after the missed offside call.
 

Pablo El Perro

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And then people are going to complain when the refs will spend 5 minutes to figure out wheter the goal was scored 10 second or 10.04 second after the missed offside call.
I think a simple possession by the defending team would be an easy middle ground solution.
 

nturn06

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I think a simple possession by the defending team would be an easy middle ground solution.
Possesion is not always a clear thing, it would lead to even more whinning on the hfboards.... "The other team touched the puck, why was the goal called back?". And we would probably still have some long reviews when the refs try to figure out if this or that touch of the puck is actually "possesion" or not.

At the end of the day, the offside reviews are doing exactly what they were implemented to do: they fix mistakes the refs are making. And that's a good beggining, we do not want our team to lose because of a clear mistake the refs made.
 

tarheelhockey

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Easy fix to the rule

*Only goals scored within the first ten seconds of the missed offsides can be over turned.

Anything outside that is allowed, as the defending team had time to recover, and no clear advantage from the missed off sides was used to score.

Play till the final whistle? How about showing up for the game and scoring some goals and playing some ****ing defense.

Ooooh we found a way to take a goal off the board. Sweet. Now it’s a 4-0 ENG instead of a 4-0 ESG, what an improvement.

And then people are going to complain when the refs will spend 5 minutes to figure out wheter the goal was scored 10 second or 10.04 second after the missed offside call.

I think a simple possession by the defending team would be an easy middle ground solution.

Possesion is not always a clear thing, it would lead to even more whinning on the hfboards.... "The other team touched the puck, why was the goal called back?". And we would probably still have some long reviews when the refs try to figure out if this or that touch of the puck is actually "possesion" or not.


This right here illustrates the whole problem with reviews. They’re supposed to take controversy out of the game, but instead they inject new controversy into the game.

Trying to fix this with more or different reviews just makes it worse. The focus just keeps shifting to new and stupider controversies.

The solution is to play the game and let the cards fall where they may. You will NEVER have a game where the fans are happy with the calls. You will NEVER have a game where half the people don’t feel they’ve been screwed. It’s impossible. Just play hockey and stop with the review crap.
 

Pablo El Perro

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Possesion is not always a clear thing, it would lead to even more whinning on the hfboards.... "The other team touched the puck, why was the goal called back?". And we would probably still have some long reviews when the refs try to figure out if this or that touch of the puck is actually "possesion" or not.

At the end of the day, the offside reviews are doing exactly what they were implemented to do: they fix mistakes the refs are making. And that's a good beggining, we do not want our team to lose because of a clear mistake the refs made.
I don't necessarily mind them. Just think it opens up the possibility of other challenges if our goal is to fix mistakes the refs are making, which seems to meet a good deal of resistance. And fans will whine regardless, it's in our nature.
 

Spurgeon

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I want them to amend it so that the bench has to indicate they would like to challenge offsides within 10 seconds of the infraction occurring, regardless of whether a goal is scored or not.

The entire purpose of the challenge is to prevent goals occurring from obvious offside situations. If the team thinks the linesman missed an offside, then make that call live.

It’d still be necessary to enforce the same penalty for an incorrect challenge to prevent it from being abused, but it’d be almost the perfect setup in my opinion.
 
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Planetov

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You have to draw a line somewhere on reviews. I'm good with drawing it at the actual line. Or on something that is tangible or quantifiable.

We are going to have to agree to disagree after this (assuming we still disagree) because I've gone as in-depth as I can with my reasoning, which I feel is pretty straightforward. Things such as "did the puck clear the glass without deflecting?", "was the player offside before the goal?", etc. are based on tangible boundaries. When two (or however many) judges come together to make the call, they're looking for the exact same thing. If you bring two, or more, judges together to say whether something was or was not a penalty, there's a far wider possibility of interpretations. There is no material, tangible item that determines the call. It is based on INTERPRETATION of a rulebook.

My opinion is to eliminate as much opinion as possible from reviews. It's an unavoidable paradox for me in goalie interference situations, since despite being a judgment call, it immediately proceeds the goal and therefore should be eligible. But for everything else, draw the line where you actually can realistically draw a line. You can't draw a line across someone's interpretation. As I said before, you'd simply be taking the frustration that comes with a goalie interference call and spread more possibility of frustration and indignation (because interpretations vary based on biased and unbiased factors).

Do missed penalty calls (or what I believe are missed calls) lead to goals sometimes? Abso-frickin-lutely. But, as I think we've both established, you can't review EVERYTHING. You have to draw the line somewhere. I think that line, as of now, is roughly drawn appropriately. You're talking about shifting it to other areas in which I am not comfortable and in which I do not believe would solve any of the issues in which you and others bring up.
Let’s go back to your original statement, as we’ve gotten off track. You said:

“Yes, there is still necessary human subjectivity in many areas. But offside shouldn’t be one.”

I guess I should have been clearer in my meaning. Do you believe the years prior to offside review (1929-2015) the enforcement of offside by linesman was subjective enough to the point that the NHL was in need of reform by way of review on scoring plays? I do not.

And if yes, do you believe the spirit of the original implementation of offside to be tantamount to what it has become under offside review guidelines? I do not.

If yes to both, I’ll simply concede we both have very different views on hockey. So, can you explain to me your reasoning on why offside necessitates a review on a play that is not the actual play in question?

In the spirit of the word “subjective,” couldn’t it be argued that it’s subjective as to whether or not the offside had a significant enough effect on the scored goal to warrant review?
 

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Seriously though, the unfolding disaster that is offside review should be a cautionary tale for people saying they want officials up in the stands calling every little thing they see.

Hockey was never meant to be officiated with a microscope. The more we press for some sort of objective perfection, the worse the quality of the game will be.
You are incorrect on two fronts.

1. It in fact WAS meant to officiated in a manner where there is an objective set of parameters in which the game is played. That is very, VERY clear in the rules that are written. The rules on things like icing and offsides are binary - it either is or it isn't. The inherent objectivity of this rule is important for maintaining the integrity of the game. If you allow subjectivity or inconsistency in the enforcement of such clear-cut rules, THAT will lead to an overall lower quality and fairness of the game. Imagine if all of a sudden, icing and off-sides and goals were called with the same level of subjectivity that they call goaltender interference.

2. The duration and frequency of offside reviews is so f***ing exaggerated here. In reality, these reviews occupy a negligible fraction of the total game time, especially when you look at it league-wide. In return, you get to ensure goals are actually goals within the defined rules. The minimal time invested in these reviews is a reasonable trade-off for the benefit of accuracy and, ultimately, fairness. People acting like these reviews are taking hours to complete are arguing in bad faith.

We see these types of rules enforced literally everywhere, both in hockey and not. Can you deflect a puck in with a high stick? If the stick is 2 feet above the shoulders, is it a goal or not? Does that get reviewed? Does the puck have to cross the goal line? What if it's, ya know, close? Half way? Or would that worsen the quality of the game if you take the time to review if it did or not? What if a running back is tackled at the 1-yard line? Close enough for a touchdown, yes? Or if a WR catches the ball with his feet on the white lines. Close enough right? Certainly, football and things like touchdowns and pass completions were never meant to be judged objectively, right? It would clearly lead to a lower-quality game if the officials took the time to review it, right? What about baseball? If the runner gets, ya know, close to the base before the other player catches the ball, it would surely degrade the quality of the game if that's reviewed right?

Rough, cross-checking, tripping, etc - sure there is subjective officiating. We argue calls here all the time, and that's fine because there is an inherent amount of context and judgment needed to make the call in such a short time frame. And they often get it wrong or are inconsistent. And then we come here and bitch about it.

The argument against these off-sides reviews highlights an inherent hypocrisy in the majority of posters here who believe that the game should be called fairly. The subtext to the argument is "MY team should be allowed to cheat in the game when it is advantageous". Nothing more.
 

LeafsNet

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So I feel like if it’s like a millimetre offside, then the call on the ice should stand (meaning good goal).

Basically they have to decide the cutoff/threshold for the computer to decide offside or on ice call.

I think that would make it more tolerable.
 

Blackjack

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2. The duration and frequency of offside reviews is so f***ing exaggerated here. In reality, these reviews occupy a negligible fraction of the total game time, especially when you look at it league-wide. In return, you get to ensure goals are actually goals within the defined rules. The minimal time invested in these reviews is a reasonable trade-off for the benefit of accuracy and, ultimately, fairness. People acting like these reviews are taking hours to complete are arguing in bad faith.

Absurd claim. The refs squint at a replay over and over again and then make their best guess at what happened.
 

Blackjack

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HFBoards: The NHL needs to do something to improve officiating!
NHL: To help with that, we implemented a review to ensure the rules are properly enforced.
HFBoards: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"It's close enough!" Okay, does the puck crossing over the goal line 50% count? I mean, it's only an inch or two, that's close enough? Right?

You literally had a ref on a hot mike saying he wanted to even up penalties. That's what people are upset about.

If the NHL cared about the quality of it's officiating they would grade officials the way MLB does and stop tolerating the game management. You think when people complain about officiating they're talking about icing and offside? LMAO
 

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Absurd claim. The refs squint at a replay over and over again and then make their best guess at what happened.
False, the requirement is that they be conclusive. The video replay is accurate the vast majority of the time. Only a small fraction are ambiguous or inconclusive.

You literally had a ref on a hot mike saying he wanted to even up penalties. That's what people are upset about.

If the NHL cared about the quality of it's officiating they would grade officials the way MLB does and stop tolerating the game management. You think when people complain about officiating they're talking about icing and offside? LMAO
He was fired for that.

Also, that was an official talking about tripping, cross-checking, etc, NOT a linesman talking about offsides or icing. So not the same thing.
 

tarheelhockey

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You are incorrect on two fronts.

1. It in fact WAS meant to officiated in a manner where there is an objective set of parameters in which the game is played. That is very, VERY clear in the rules that are written.

You say that like offside was never a subjective call, which is false. Look at rule changes since the league’s inception.

The rules on things like icing and offsides are binary - it either is or it isn't.

Icing most certainly does include subjective elements. It’s only an objective call in the most clear-cut circumstances.

The inherent objectivity of this rule is important for maintaining the integrity of the game. If you allow subjectivity or inconsistency in the enforcement of such clear-cut rules, THAT will lead to an overall lower quality and fairness of the game. Imagine if all of a sudden, icing and off-sides and goals were called with the same level of subjectivity that they call goaltender interference.

A referee making a mistake is not “subjectivity”.

Normal human mistakes were made on offside calls for 90 years, and nobody saw this as an urgent issue. It’s just part of the game, sometimes the ref sees the high stick and sometimes he doesn’t, either way you play on. That isn’t subjectivity, a high stick is a high stick, but this is in no way a game that was designed to be stopped and re-played every time a high stick happens.

2. The duration and frequency of offside reviews is so f***ing exaggerated here. In reality, these reviews occupy a negligible fraction of the total game time, especially when you look at it league-wide. In return, you get to ensure goals are actually goals within the defined rules. The minimal time invested in these reviews is a reasonable trade-off for the benefit of accuracy and, ultimately, fairness. People acting like these reviews are taking hours to complete are arguing in bad faith.

You have obviously never had the experience of being in the arena when a key goal is scored, having the whole place explode into a frenzy, then everything dies down and descends into a chorus of soft boos while the ref argues with the coach, the players skate to their bench looking up at the scoreboard, the ref finally goes over to talk to the scorekeeper, the ref comes back and announces the review to a louder chorus of boos, then the refs conduct the review while the Jumbotron shows frame-by-frame replays while 18000 people squint to see exactly where a skate was at a particular millisecond, then the ref comes out an announces no-goal to extremely loud boos, then the ref goes over and argues with the other coach, eventually the coach sends out his guys for the next shift, then the furor dies down into a discontented mumble while they get set for the faceoff, and the loudspeakers play “let’s go ____ clap clap clap” which nobody participates in as they settle back down.

That feeling of the air slowly going out of a balloon deeply, deeply sucks. In live-arena time that turnaround of several minutes feels like it takes forever, and it leaves the building dead and the game changed. Over what? A guy picking up his foot at 48:09:08 instead of 48:09:09? It’s not worth it. People are paying to be entertained, not frustrated to tears.

What if a running back is tackled at the 1-yard line? Close enough for a touchdown, yes? Or if a WR catches the ball with his feet on the white lines. Close enough right? Certainly, football and things like touchdowns and pass completions were never meant to be judged objectively, right? It would clearly lead to a lower-quality game if the officials took the time to review it, right?

I went to a football bowl game yesterday that took over FOUR HOURS to play.

I’m not even going to write more about it. FOUR HOURS.

The argument against these off-sides reviews highlights an inherent hypocrisy in the majority of posters here who believe that the game should be called fairly. The subtext to the argument is "MY team should be allowed to cheat in the game when it is advantageous". Nothing more.

Boy was tonight the wrong night for you to pull THAT card. Here’s my post from our GDT about two hours ago:

See, here’s me coming right back and saying a review like this is dumb as hell even if it ends up benefiting the Canes. The ref was all over that call, this is just throwing shit at the wall and making the game last longer.

I’m perfectly happy to watch an NHL where my team gets screwed by calls — guess what, I already watch that 82 games a year! It’s sports, bad calls happen. Come at me with terrible calls. 90% of the sports fan experience is being mad about something, so nothing changes.

What I don’t want to watch is a stupid mini-game between the coaches where they try find a way to screw each other out of good hockey goals by litigating irrelevant crap that happened elsewhere on the ice.
 

Spurgeon

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You are incorrect on two fronts.

1. It in fact WAS meant to officiated in a manner where there is an objective set of parameters in which the game is played. That is very, VERY clear in the rules that are written. The rules on things like icing and offsides are binary - it either is or it isn't. The inherent objectivity of this rule is important for maintaining the integrity of the game. If you allow subjectivity or inconsistency in the enforcement of such clear-cut rules, THAT will lead to an overall lower quality and fairness of the game. Imagine if all of a sudden, icing and off-sides and goals were called with the same level of subjectivity that they call goaltender interference.

2. The duration and frequency of offside reviews is so f***ing exaggerated here. In reality, these reviews occupy a negligible fraction of the total game time, especially when you look at it league-wide. In return, you get to ensure goals are actually goals within the defined rules. The minimal time invested in these reviews is a reasonable trade-off for the benefit of accuracy and, ultimately, fairness. People acting like these reviews are taking hours to complete are arguing in bad faith.

We see these types of rules enforced literally everywhere, both in hockey and not. Can you deflect a puck in with a high stick? If the stick is 2 feet above the shoulders, is it a goal or not? Does that get reviewed? Does the puck have to cross the goal line? What if it's, ya know, close? Half way? Or would that worsen the quality of the game if you take the time to review if it did or not? What if a running back is tackled at the 1-yard line? Close enough for a touchdown, yes? Or if a WR catches the ball with his feet on the white lines. Close enough right? Certainly, football and things like touchdowns and pass completions were never meant to be judged objectively, right? It would clearly lead to a lower-quality game if the officials took the time to review it, right? What about baseball? If the runner gets, ya know, close to the base before the other player catches the ball, it would surely degrade the quality of the game if that's reviewed right?

Rough, cross-checking, tripping, etc - sure there is subjective officiating. We argue calls here all the time, and that's fine because there is an inherent amount of context and judgment needed to make the call in such a short time frame. And they often get it wrong or are inconsistent. And then we come here and bitch about it.

The argument against these off-sides reviews highlights an inherent hypocrisy in the majority of posters here who believe that the game should be called fairly. The subtext to the argument is "MY team should be allowed to cheat in the game when it is advantageous". Nothing more.
I don’t want hockey to turn into football where you’re looking for a flag after every big play. If I have to worry about a review happening for every single goal, then the game just becomes entirely unenjoyable to watch.

The game is not meant to be called with 100% accurate precision. There isn’t a single profession where anyone has the level of performance. You can correct the egregious mistakes with live reviews, but these stupid ass frame-by-frame calls ain’t it.
 

Folignos Helmet

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Hate it.

I like multiple suggestions in this thread and others I have heard from the likes of Ray Ferraro.
1. If the defending team touches it you can’t review.
2. If you do review, you have 1 minute. If it is too close to overturn in one minute of looking than it stays as called.
3. If play went on for over a certain amount of time then you can’t review. Like the Rangers one today.

People argue it is black and white but there are still instances where you can quite tell between skate and puck.
 
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Devil Dancer

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2. The duration and frequency of offside reviews is so f***ing exaggerated here. In reality, these reviews occupy a negligible fraction of the total game time, especially when you look at it league-wide. In return, you get to ensure goals are actually goals within the defined rules. The minimal time invested in these reviews is a reasonable trade-off for the benefit of accuracy and, ultimately, fairness. People acting like these reviews are taking hours to complete are arguing in bad faith.
Oh man, hard hard hard disagree.

This bullshit happens often enough that every time my team scores now my first thought is "ok but will it count?"

That's an awful outcome. Goals used to be celebrated without question or hesitation. It was fun! Now we're worried about whether a player was offside by an inch up to minutes before the goal.

Worst rule in hockey. Kill it with fire.
 

crowfish

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Jun 3, 2011
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The worst part of this rule is that it is a complete freeroll for the opposing team if the zone is entered offside. They could clear the zone and go down the ice and score and you would not be able to review the offside that should have been originally called. They should just get rid of the review all together, but if they are going to keep it they should add a rule that as soon as the opposing team gets possession of the puck the ability to challenge is gone.
 

Blackjack

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False, the requirement is that they be conclusive. The video replay is accurate the vast majority of the time. Only a small fraction are ambiguous or inconclusive.

You’re correct that the rule states that it must be conclusive. What I observe is that refs will rule offsides and take away a goal if there is even a possibility that a play might have been offside. Most of the offside challenges I’ve seen involve the challenging coach staring at an iPad for a minute or two before challenging, and the refs taking 5 minutes to make their call. Weird that that happens when the call is so rarely ambiguous or inconclusive.

He was fired for that.

Also, that was an official talking about tripping, cross-checking, etc, NOT a linesman talking about offsides or icing. So not the same thing.

Who cares that he was fired? Statistical analysis shows that game management still goes on. The NHL could have chosen that moment to clean up its officiating and it chose not to.

Did you read my post? I specifically said that those are the calls people are upset about. NOT the icings and offside.

Oh man, hard hard hard disagree.

This bullshit happens often enough that every time my team scores now my first thought is "ok but will it count?"

That's an awful outcome. Goals used to be celebrated without question or hesitation. It was fun! Now we're worried about whether a player was offside by an inch up to minutes before the goal.

Worst rule in hockey. Kill it with fire.

This is 100% true, you can’t even celebrate a goal anymore until the puck drops. It has sucked all the fun out of the game.
 

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