Calgary city council approves arena deal (UPD: new deal upcoming?)

[CHRDANHUTCH]

A new city-owned arena won't need tenants to make money. If the city builds an arena we can fill the dates with concerts and events and make a lot of money. It will be money we can use to fund priority areas within the city. Having the Flames as a tenant would mean that we get nothing so what's the point?

If the Flames want a new arena and be the main tenants they can build one themselves and pay taxes when it's opened.

I don't know why that is so hard.

that's my point... whether it's a new arena or the Saddledome... you're LOSING MONEY EITHER WAY..... When have there been Concerts or other events that solely drive revenue at ANY arena, no matter WHO operates it.... the concert/other event angle is a NON-Starter... you're stuck with CSEC as a tenant, Mike, your complaint against the Flames/NHL doesn't fly here either..... there's A thread saying CSEC continues to ignore the AHL Wranglers even though they own them they're not even a top priority in dates behind the Flames since being transferred back to Calgary full time.... you're not going to find a lot of support from the general hockey fanbase in backing what the Flames ownership has done the last 3 decades on either side of the border, independent of what market it is or whose fault it actually is....

 

[Mike Jones]

that's my point... whether it's a new arena or the Saddledome... you're LOSING MONEY EITHER WAY..... When have there been Concerts or other events that solely drive revenue at ANY arena, no matter WHO operates it.... the concert/other event angle is a NON-Starter... you're stuck with CSEC as a tenant, Mike, your complaint against the Flames/NHL doesn't fly here either..... there's A thread saying CSEC continues to ignore the AHL Wranglers even though they own them they're not even a top priority in dates behind the Flames since being transferred back to Calgary full time.... you're not going to find a lot of support from the general hockey fanbase in backing what the Flames ownership has done the last 3 decades on either side of the border, independent of what market it is or whose fault it actually is....

Well, the bottom line is that if the Flames don't want to stay in the Saddledome and want to remain in this extremely lucrative market they need to be forced by the city and province to build, pay for and pay taxes on their own arena.

There's no way the city should build one for them and then receive only pennies on the dollar from it. If the city builds an arena we should make demands of the Flames and that includes a 50/50 revenue share, etc.

 

[sawchuk1971]

flames are going to houston...

i don't see the city bending backwards to give the flames a new arena....

 

[BKIslandersFan]

A new city-owned arena won't need tenants to make money. If the city builds an arena we can fill the dates with concerts and events and make a lot of money. It will be money we can use to fund priority areas within the city. Having the Flames as a tenant would mean that we get nothing so what's the point?

If the Flames want a new arena and be the main tenants they can build one themselves and pay taxes when it's opened.

I don't know why that is so hard.

I heard KC arena is a money maker with no tenant. And they don’t actually want an NBA or NHL team coming in and taking their money.

 

[93LEAFS]

I heard KC arena is a money maker with no tenant. And they don’t actually want an NBA or NHL team coming in and taking their money.

I believe they do well off of college basketball tournaments and one-off games. Not really an option for Calgary. Although in no way should an arena/stadium ever be publicly funded.

 

[Mike Jones]

I heard KC arena is a money maker with no tenant. And they don’t actually want an NBA or NHL team coming in and taking their money.

I've read the same thing and good for them! Calgary needs to follow their lead but we'd need a new mayor and council for that. The current bunch simply don't seem to have it in them to do the right thing here.

I believe they do well off of college basketball tournaments and one-off games. Not really an option for Calgary. Although in no way should an arena/stadium ever be publicly funded.

Yes, it is. It's a story that can help us whenever the Flames threaten to up and leave. I'll be the first in line waving them goodbye. Only a bunch of demented loons would leave this market.

 

[93LEAFS]

I've read the same thing and good for them! Calgary needs to follow their lead but we'd need a new mayor and council for that. The current bunch simply don't seem to have it in them to do the right thing here.


Yes, it is. It's a story that can help us whenever the Flames threaten to up and leave. I'll be the first in line waving them goodbye. Only a bunch of demented loons would leave this market.

I meant specifically relying on college basketball games for revenue. Which is absolutely not an option for Calgary.

 

[Mike Jones]

I meant specifically relying on college basketball games for revenue. Which is absolutely not an option for Calgary.

ooops - OK. There you're right except Canada does hold university tournaments from time to time. I don't know if they use larger facilities for those or not.

 

[93LEAFS]

ooops - OK. There you're right except Canada does hold university tournaments from time to time. I don't know if they use larger facilities for those or not.

I went to a University where sports are fairly popular in Canada (UWO), but those def aren't revenue generators.

 

[Mike Jones]

I went to a University where sports are fairly popular in Canada (UWO), but those def aren't revenue generators.

Fair enough. But I do like the idea of using KC as an example of a city and arena management able to send a message to leagues like the NHL and NBA.

"Play by our rules or we'll find a way to live without you"

We need a mayor and council with the spine to send that message.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Fair enough. But I do like the idea of using KC as an example of a city and arena management able to send a message to leagues like the NHL and NBA.

"Play by our rules or we'll find a way to live without you"

We need a mayor and council with the spine to send that message.

THAT'S WHY THE Kansas City metro is largely ignored now no matter who operates there, Mike,..... Lamar Hunt is Kansas City and because of that anti-business edict by the metro you're not in KC downtown or over in Johnson County Kansas or in KC, Kansas where Kansas Speedway has been largely successful....

 

[Dirty Old Man]

That's crazy... how did they not consider this when they built the thing!?

It is crazy. The most fun in that arena is, and I wish I'd taken a picture when I went in 2014, there's a washroom in the upper deck, that the path to get to is like ascending a mountain in Lord of the Rings - up a flight of stairs, across a narrow path behind the rows of seats, up a last couple of stairs IIRC, bananas.

 

[Yukon Joe]

It is crazy. The most fun in that arena is, and I wish I'd taken a picture when I went in 2014, there's a washroom in the upper deck, that the path to get to is like ascending a mountain in Lord of the Rings - up a flight of stairs, across a narrow path behind the rows of seats, up a last couple of stairs IIRC, bananas.

Yeah, when the Flames say they need a new arena, they do kind of have a point. Saddledome is old and crappy. Other than the heavily-renovated MSG it is the oldest arena in the NHL.

 

[Mike Jones]

THAT'S WHY THE Kansas City metro is largely ignored now no matter who operates there, Mike,..... Lamar Hunt is Kansas City and because of that anti-business edict by the metro you're not in KC downtown or over in Johnson County Kansas or in KC, Kansas where Kansas Speedway has been largely successful....

KC seems to be doing fine as a city and Calgary will be fine as well.

Yeah, when the Flames say they need a new arena, they do kind of have a point. Saddledome is old and crappy. Other than the heavily-renovated MSG it is the oldest arena in the NHL.

They're free to build one anytime they want. Nobody has been stopping them. They're rich. They're going to generate a lot of income in this season's playoffs and they play in an extremely lucrative market.

the Flames can easily pay for and build a new arena. And they can afford to pay a huge amount of property taxes to the city when their new place opens.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

KC seems to be doing fine as a city and Calgary will be fine as well.


They're free to build one anytime they want. Nobody has been stopping them. They're rich. They're going to generate a lot of income in this season's playoffs and they play in an extremely lucrative market.

the Flames can easily pay for and build a new arena. And they can afford to pay a huge amount of property taxes to the city when their new place opens.

if Kansas City is fine as a metro city with an anti-business stance, that's been publically acknowledged, Mike, why would ANY ownership approach them now knowing that stance hasn't changed.....

 

[Yukon Joe]

Well, the bottom line is that if the Flames don't want to stay in the Saddledome and want to remain in this extremely lucrative market they need to be forced by the city and province to build, pay for and pay taxes on their own arena.

There's no way the city should build one for them and then receive only pennies on the dollar from it. If the city builds an arena we should make demands of the Flames and that includes a 50/50 revenue share, etc.

I'm not here to defend the Flames, and public funding of arenas doesn't really sit right with me, but the Calgary market, together with the Saddledome, isn't all that lucrative.

Projecting 2021's richest NHL teams and their revenue by 2025

A recent report by Bookies.com analyzed data of all 31 NHL teams from the past 10 years to project who will be the richest franchise in the league by 2025.

www.audacy.com

These kinds of lists are all just outside projections, but this one shows the Flames ranked #25 in revenue in the league.

But do you see up there at #18? It's the OIlers. Now Edmonton is a slightly smaller, slightly poorer city than Calgary, but they do have a shiny new arena and as such they make an extra $40 million per year more than Calgary.

The problem of course is that the Flames are competing against a lot of other franchises where local government DID subsidize the arena. So while it is all well and good to say governments shouldn't subsidize pro teams (and they shouldn't), it's hard when so many other teams do get subsidized.

 

[Mike Jones]

if Kansas City is fine as a metro city with an anti-business stance, that's been publically acknowledged, Mike, why would ANY ownership approach them now knowing that stance hasn't changed.....

They probably wouldn't want to anyway - KC has sent their message.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It is crazy. The most fun in that arena is, and I wish I'd taken a picture when I went in 2014, there's a washroom in the upper deck, that the path to get to is like ascending a mountain in Lord of the Rings - up a flight of stairs, across a narrow path behind the rows of seats, up a last couple of stairs IIRC, bananas.

I miss strange stuff like this in old arenas. Mind you, I would never choose to build one that way. But finding those little nooks and crannies was a real joy back in the day… made the building feel sort of like a weird old house with secret passages.

 

[Mike Jones]

I'm not here to defend the Flames, and public funding of arenas doesn't really sit right with me, but the Calgary market, together with the Saddledome, isn't all that lucrative.

Projecting 2021's richest NHL teams and their revenue by 2025

A recent report by Bookies.com analyzed data of all 31 NHL teams from the past 10 years to project who will be the richest franchise in the league by 2025.

www.audacy.com

These kinds of lists are all just outside projections, but this one shows the Flames ranked #25 in revenue in the league.

But do you see up there at #18? It's the OIlers. Now Edmonton is a slightly smaller, slightly poorer city than Calgary, but they do have a shiny new arena and as such they make an extra $40 million per year more than Calgary.

The problem of course is that the Flames are competing against a lot of other franchises where local government DID subsidize the arena. So while it is all well and good to say governments shouldn't subsidize pro teams (and they shouldn't), it's hard when so many other teams do get subsidized.

Calgary has a decent combination of passionate fans, wealth, youth, etc etc. Where are the Flames going to go if they move? I don't think they'd be able to find a spot with the fans or money Calgary has.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Calgary has a decent combination of passionate fans, wealth, youth, etc etc. Where are the Flames going to go if they move? I don't think they'd be able to find a spot with the fans or money Calgary has.

They also have a crappy arena with not as many luxury boxes as they'd like, plus other amenities. It is really night and day compared to Edmonton (and I've been to both several times).

Fans aren't quite so passionate, more fair-weather. Calgary's wealth is debatable, it comes and goes with the oil industry. Downtown Calgary is a ghost town, with entire office buildings sitting completely empty because the oil companies that used to fill them have been bought up or gone out of business. Youth is from young people migrating from other provinces, who therefore tend not to be Flames fans.

Where would they do? I dunno. Anywhere were the local government is willing to build a shiny new arena. If that's nowhere then the Flames will stay. But if someone does pony up, it's not impossible for them to leave town.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

add to that, Mike, if the Flames leave for another market you'd have to get the NHL/AHL/WHL to sign off on any transfer of the franchises even if CSEC remains the owner, you keep forgetting, like TNSE IN Winnipeg, they own 3 teams, not just the NHL Team

 

[Takuto Maruki]

KC seems to be doing fine as a city and Calgary will be fine as well.

KC also has no shortage of sporting options in general, both within Missouri and even across the state line in Kansas proper. Ditto for summer and winter. Calgary does not have anywhere that amount of options if the Flames leave to shield the blow.

add to that, Mike, if the Flames leave for another market you'd have to get the NHL/AHL/WHL to sign off on any transfer of the franchises even if CSEC remains the owner, you keep forgetting, like TNSE IN Winnipeg, they own 3 teams, not just the NHL Team

5. Roughnecks also are in the same building, and they also own the Stamps, who'd be the next ones in line to take the mantle of top pro franchise in Calgary. Considering the state of the CFL basically anywhere outside of the Prairies and maaaaaaybe Hamilton, that's not exactly a rosy proposition. So if the Flames leave, you're looking at 3 teams that need to find local buyers, and 2 who need a place to play and fast.

Again, there's a reason why the Flames and CSEC hold the winning hand in this scenario - and why Calgary city council, and the provincial government, are willing to swallow the pill to let the Flames get what they want. And as much as our friend here likes to think Calgary will survive if they don't have a major league tenant in terms of entertainment options, they absolutely won't.

I want to re-iterate that I don't think funds should be used for sports arenas. But I'm also a realist who looks at things and knows why municipalities and cities do it - and in the case of Calgary, there's a very clear reason why the Flames have the upper hand, and I can't blame them for using it.

 

[Mike Jones]

They also have a crappy arena with not as many luxury boxes as they'd like, plus other amenities. It is really night and day compared to Edmonton (and I've been to both several times).

Fans aren't quite so passionate, more fair-weather. Calgary's wealth is debatable, it comes and goes with the oil industry. Downtown Calgary is a ghost town, with entire office buildings sitting completely empty because the oil companies that used to fill them have been bought up or gone out of business. Youth is from young people migrating from other provinces, who therefore tend not to be Flames fans.

Where would they do? I dunno. Anywhere were the local government is willing to build a shiny new arena. If that's nowhere then the Flames will stay. But if someone does pony up, it's not impossible for them to leave town.

The arena is fine if they reduce their demands and expectations. Again, where else can they go?

And if they don't like the arena they know what they can do.

 

[Mike Jones]

KC also has no shortage of sporting options in general, both within Missouri and even across the state line in Kansas proper. Ditto for summer and winter. Calgary does not have anywhere that amount of options if the Flames leave to shield the blow.


5. Roughnecks also are in the same building, and they also own the Stamps, who'd be the next ones in line to take the mantle of top pro franchise in Calgary. Considering the state of the CFL basically anywhere outside of the Prairies and maaaaaaybe Hamilton, that's not exactly a rosy proposition.

I am constantly talking to people attending concerts and events here. I also read about concerts that go to Edmonton because of the Saddledome. There are enough concerts and events to fill the calendar if and when the Flames leave with all of their kiddy teams like the Roughnecks. They will probably leave some of their teams behind anyway as what city is going to be able to accommodate all of them?

So not to worry. If and when the Flames throw a hissy fit and leave we'll be fine. We'll even be able to build a new arena that will make money for us and we won't have to share with the rich, whiney people who own the Flames.

 

[Takuto Maruki]

There are enough concerts and events to fill the calendar if and when the Flames leave

Replacing 41 nights might be harder than you think.

This is last year’s numbers for concerts.

https://www.pollstar.com/Chart/2021/12/arenas_992.pdf

Scotiabank ranked #135.

By comparison GRA in Glendale ranked #35 and did 10x the ticket sales dollar wise. In spite of having to compete with three other venues with similar capacity.

Glendale claims they lose money now but thinks they can replace the Coyotes with 20 events. But if the Coyotes get their new home across town in Tempe that’s going to be even more difficult.

Once again, quoting this to set a baseline. And as much as you say that 'Calgary will be fine' evidence, both in this form and the amount of businesses leaving downtown Calgary in the wake of fluctuations in the oil and gas / natural resources sector, that will likely continue and get worse, say otherwise.

with all of their kiddy teams like the Roughnecks.

uh huh, I'd definitely say the oldest operating sports team in the city and a consistent top attendance getter in one part of the major junior hockey triangle is 'kiddy' but you do you

They will probably leave some of their teams behind anyway as what city is going to be able to accommodate all of them?

None, evidently. But once more, you've completely ignored the entire point of people pointing these out to you to beat your chest out saying that Calgary will be fine. Considering the fact that CSEC has 4 teams operating out of the arena we're talking about, it's a major blow to have two of these teams leave right in the aftermath of the worst coming to fruition, and the other two needing space to play out ASAP, with those specific two and another one needing local owners just as quickly.

Which is why CSEC has the advantage in these negotiations. Calgary city council knows it, the Alberta provincial government knows it too. The only one who doesn't seem to know is you. Literally, people have been prefacing their statements with the general agreement that arenas shouldn't be funded with public funds, but you ignore the rest of the points they are making in these statements to say that Calgary will be fine, when the evidence provided says otherwise. And as much as you like to say that Kansas City is in the same general boat as Calgary in being 'fine', KC has many other sports franchises, within the city limits and even across the state line in Kansas proper with Sporting KC to weather having no major tenant in their main arena.

We'll even be able to build a new arena that will make money for us and we won't have to share with the rich, whiney people who own the Flames.

Sure. And where is that money going to come from for this new arena?

I'll let you figure it out. It's been the connecting thread for more or less all your posts on this subject.