Calgary city council approves arena deal (UPD: new deal upcoming?)

[MaskedSonja]

Anyone think this type of thing gets brought up in next cba negotiations? How many owners start crying poor need help with new arena\help with revenues.

 

[gstommylee]

Anyone think this type of thing gets brought up in next cba negotiations? How many owners start crying poor need help with new arena\help with revenues.

Would be difficult given the 500m expansion fee split to the 30 owners then the 650m expansion fee split 31 owners.

 

[mouser]

Anyone think this type of thing gets brought up in next cba negotiations? How many owners start crying poor need help with new arena\help with revenues.

If it hypothetically was in the next CBA negotiation: what would the proposed change or solution be?

 

[Oilers Propagandist]

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/bettman-says-flames-finances-impacted-by-the-aging-saddledome-1.3826477

Bettman said that Calgary used to be a top 10 team that made money for the league, but now over the past few years, the NHL has been the one writing cheques.

“The cheques are getting bigger and that means the situation, financially, continues to deteriorate and that will affect, I suppose, the competitiveness of the organization.”

***The Cha


Yet Forbes says Calgary Operating Income: $5.4 M

Bettman is so full of it. Anything to get the taxpayers to buy him a new building.

And what cheques is the NHL writing? The revenue sharing cheques like half the league gets.

Charity Flames almost has a nice ring to it as the Houston Flame Broiled 40oz ribeye's.

 

[Jeffrey93]

I gotta give it to Gary, he has no pride in self image, I guess making however many million a year works. But come on, at some point this league has to learn or move forward from threatening to leave and move franchises to other cities just to get their way

This league really really really needs to create an arena fund. Take money from the revenue sharing or wherever you need to find it...and put it in a pot. If you're in a situation like Calgary, Ottawa, San Jose or the Islanders.....you can tap into, I dunno...say $200M provided by the league. It goes directly to construction costs......so the Flames could add $200M to whatever they were proposing to pay for a new rink.

The amount would increase with inflation and construction costs. Even if it was an interest free loan provided to teams by the NHL.......something.

Had the NHL pumped money into the Glendale Arena, it would be a lot easier to bail or demand a better deal when you contributed a reasonable amount to the construction of the building.

Canadian teams generally don't get handouts. Even the Edmonton arena.....by the end of the lease agreement the City will be made whole. The league/team showing up to talk with the City, Province or Feds....would look a lot better if they had a meaningful contribution.

With a $200M grant/loan from the league.....and say $200M of their own coin.....you're at $400M before asking the government for a dime. That's pretty decent and would be hard for government to shy away from a $400M investment like that.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

This league really really really needs to create an arena fund. Take money from the revenue sharing or wherever you need to find it...and put it in a pot. If you're in a situation like Calgary, Ottawa, San Jose or the Islanders.....you can tap into, I dunno...say $200M provided by the league. It goes directly to construction costs......so the Flames could add $200M to whatever they were proposing to pay for a new rink.

The amount would increase with inflation and construction costs. Even if it was an interest free loan provided to teams by the NHL.......something.

Had the NHL pumped money into the Glendale Arena, it would be a lot easier to bail or demand a better deal when you contributed a reasonable amount to the construction of the building.

Canadian teams generally don't get handouts. Even the Edmonton arena.....by the end of the lease agreement the City will be made whole. The league/team showing up to talk with the City, Province or Feds....would look a lot better if they had a meaningful contribution.

With a $200M grant/loan from the league.....and say $200M of their own coin.....you're at $400M before asking the government for a dime. That's pretty decent and would be hard for government to shy away from a $400M investment like that.

no League would buy into the above scenario.... they are considered independent contractors.... why wouldn't NHL Teams step in to an arena dispute even if its their players/prospects directly or indirectly involved....

using the above example, why didn't Arizona step into the dispute between Portland and the Cross Trustees on a new lease back in 2013, independent of the arena renovations schedule timeline.... and you're seeing the opposite effect with NHL Franchises owning the top affiliate outright, answer was that's not part of the lease negotiations between a tenant and an arena operator even if a lease had been done or agreed to in principle.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Selling 18000 tickets a night in a old barn is still way better that selling 12000 in a recent one but its the nhl so different rules apply for Canada

It actually may not be.

 

[MaskedSonja]

If it hypothetically was in the next CBA negotiation: what would the proposed change or solution be?

Im going to just throw this out as an idea though it will start more questions lol.

When an owner buys a franchise from an another owner and goes through nhl, what is that owners contigency plan for a future arena? Might be 5 years down the road, might be 10, might be more. Is it possible that the owner might sell before then? Absolutely. However the owner to be must respond as though he will be in charge of replacing arena. What agreements or understandings would he have with the city? Private? Public? Mix? A roadmap of some sort would nlbe nice

Yes city govs change too you cant account for all variables. However i think there should be understanding owner has at least an idea of what he would do as opposed to kicking can down the road until it gets to a crisis situation.

Im thinking players would like some comfort of what the team has in mind without dealing with distractions of if team will move or how any sort of worries about owner paying out contracts or asking them to waive nmc that they chose because they like the city. Essentially i think the arena idea is one part of really checking the viability of ownership buying a team. Im sure players get tired and anxious of arena talks and threats of moving.
Again just a thought to discuss


I expect to get ripped here lol

 

[MaskedSonja]

Would be difficult given the 500m expansion fee split to the 30 owners then the 650m expansion fee split 31 owners.

considering it seems every time cba time comes up we seem to hear about how owners are losing a lot of money, from q cynical pov i wouldnt put it past them to still claim that a one time
Revenue shot doesnt help them long term

 

[cbcwpg]

I don't know. I think we all are making a bigger deal of Betman's comments yesterday than is necessary. Really, he was caught off guard, and was answering a bunch of questions. It's not like he specifically went out of his way to make this proclamation.

And, what he said was totally, and in reality quite understatedly, in agreement with what was said a few months ago.

I have a problem with the way the Flames and Bettman have handled this whole thing, including compaigning for his opponent in the mayoral election, so I can see many arguemnts about that. But, this particular statement is pretty soft, really.

Bettman is rarely ever caught off guard. He was making a western swing of Vancouver, Edmonton, and Calgary and he knew that when he ended up in Calgary someone was going to ask about the arena situation.

 

[gstommylee]

considering it seems every time cba time comes up we seem to hear about how owners are losing a lot of money, from q cynical pov i wouldnt put it past them to still claim that a one time
Revenue shot doesnt help them long term

there is also the new US tv deal set to be negotiated with Seattle and Vegas with teams. i expect an increase to the US tv deal aka more $$ to owner pockets. Again i would have a hard time buying the claim that the teams are losing money after over a 1.15b dollars in expansion fees + increase of TV contract revenue.

 

[voyageur]

Stop with the Bettman USA bias. He's already threatened The Coyotes saying they're not viable in Glendale. He also moved the Thrashers to Winnipeg. Gary is nothing more than a puppet for the BOG. Ken King told him to come to town and say the Flames are in trouble because he didn't want to. Gary gets thrown to the wolves by the BOG because that is his job. That's why they pay him the big bucks

If we follow that logic the BoG moved a team to Winnipeg. And don't be deceived Winnipeg was lucky to have been in the place they were in. There were two franchises in peril. One ownership group absolutely wanted out of the NHL to capitalize on selling off its other investments.

The timing was bad for the NHL. Not many teams could put together an entire organizational plan in a matter of months. Winnipeg had that advantage, in having run a very successful AHL operation. They showed the BoG a profitable business model.

They also gave Bettman the opportunity to honour his promise to Ilitch to move to the East, after the RedWings got screwed every year with poor playoff matchups.

The Jets were likely no one's first choice. If Houston had interest, Seattle an arena. If Portland and Allen had stepped up, likely would not be a team in Winnipeg.

Luckily it worked out. But don't act like Bettman doesn't have a grudge against Canadian teams (minus the Leafs). I could cite a myriad of examples.

 

[Bookie21]

If we follow that logic the BoG moved a team to Winnipeg. And don't be deceived Winnipeg was lucky to have been in the place they were in. There were two franchises in peril. One ownership group absolutely wanted out of the NHL to capitalize on selling off its other investments.

The timing was bad for the NHL. Not many teams could put together an entire organizational plan in a matter of months. Winnipeg had that advantage, in having run a very successful AHL operation. They showed the BoG a profitable business model.

They also gave Bettman the opportunity to honour his promise to Ilitch to move to the East, after the RedWings got screwed every year with poor playoff matchups.

The Jets were likely no one's first choice. If Houston had interest, Seattle an arena. If Portland and Allen had stepped up, likely would not be a team in Winnipeg.

Luckily it worked out. But don't act like Bettman doesn't have a grudge against Canadian teams (minus the Leafs). I could cite a myriad of examples.

Bettman has absolutely no say on where franchises are placed.
Example: if the Coyotes need to move after this season and Quebec and Houston are the options. Bettman says let's move them to Quebec, We need to right a wrong. Jeremy Jacobs would say to Bettman "they're moving to Houston numb nuts, and don't tell the BOG where they're moving or you'll be on the street looking for work"

 

[voyageur]

Bettman has absolutely no say on where franchises are placed.
Example: if the Coyotes need to move after this season and Quebec and Houston are the options. Bettman says let's move them to Quebec, We need to right a wrong. Jeremy Jacobs would say to Bettman "they're moving to Houston numb nuts, and don't tell the BOG where they're moving or you'll be on the street looking for work"

Exactly. He works for Jacobs, Dolan, Anschultz. The heavy hitters. Jacobs is probably the most influential person in hockey. You might see his hands making the words out of Bettman's crooked mouth if you look closely enough. That's why I worry that the Flames could be leveraged for a Houston franchise. When all evidence says it should be a team that is failing, in Arizona, but they represent revenues to other parties that own stakes in other parts of the sport beyond their own franchises.

 

[TOGuy14]

no League would buy into the above scenario.... they are considered independent contractors.... why wouldn't NHL Teams step in to an arena dispute even if its their players/prospects directly or indirectly involved....

using the above example, why didn't Arizona step into the dispute between Portland and the Cross Trustees on a new lease back in 2013, independent of the arena renovations schedule timeline.... and you're seeing the opposite effect with NHL Franchises owning the top affiliate outright, answer was that's not part of the lease negotiations between a tenant and an arena operator even if a lease had been done or agreed to in principle.

Pretty sure the NFL does this (though they still hold cities hostage for new stadiums)...

They give out fairly low interest loans to owners to help finance their share of stadiums.

 

[Roadrage]

no League would buy into the above scenario.... they are considered independent contractors.... why wouldn't NHL Teams step in to an arena dispute even if its their players/prospects directly or indirectly involved....

using the above example, why didn't Arizona step into the dispute between Portland and the Cross Trustees on a new lease back in 2013, independent of the arena renovations schedule timeline.... and you're seeing the opposite effect with NHL Franchises owning the top affiliate outright, answer was that's not part of the lease negotiations between a tenant and an arena operator even if a lease had been done or agreed to in principle.

Pretty sure the NFL has some sort of loan program for building new stadiums. I think a team can access either an interest free or low interest loan to kick in for building a stadium as long as the team itself kicks in a contribution of a certain amount. I believe the Vikings and Falcons new stadiums had access to the loans.

 

[edog37]

Dear Uncle Gary,

We've built you a 370 million $ (CAD) arena in Quebec City, arena that you still haven't filled with an NHL team. Calgary doesn't need to spend a dime on a new arena because you don't keep your promises.

Sincerely,
The 30+ millions of Canadians

Would like to see the promise the NHL made to Quebec to bring a team if they built a barn. I'm sure it's sitting right next to the promissory note made to Hamilton in the 1980s with Copps Coliseum....

So, here's the truth, the NHL NEVER promised any city anything with regards to a team. These cities built these facilities at risk, so NONE of them were owed anything....

 

[edog37]

Bettman is the guy selecting that club of owners. He's the guy that markets the game, for them, increasing their revenues. He's in the back pocket of Jacobs. Jacobs sells concessions in the U.S., not Canada. He and a few others are in the inner circle, like any council. Snider was one. Jacobs wants Houston. Gary starts negotiating with Houston for a team.

I feel like Calgary is being pinched. Bad climate, Liberal government in Ottawa, NDP in Edmonton. Conservative stronghold in Calgary. Hard to see them been financed. So it's hold on. Owners can take a payout elsewhere. No taxes in Texas. Still the Flames are a successful franchise. I don't see why they should feel the heat. Guarantee their arena still generates more revenue than most teams. If they fall into the bottom tier, should they be moved? Wouldn't Arizona be 1st. Team is bankrupt, run arm's length from the league, from one owner to the next. That's unstable. Flames may become underdogs, like the Jets, but still remain ahead of Winnipeg in terms of revenues. So why posture with their municipality, threatening them. Like I said New York never got that ultimatum in Long Island. Two sets of rules. Because Canadians only matter, if the pay the premium.

No he isn't. That would be the Board of Governors....i.e. the other owners....

 

[edog37]

This league really really really needs to create an arena fund. Take money from the revenue sharing or wherever you need to find it...and put it in a pot. If you're in a situation like Calgary, Ottawa, San Jose or the Islanders.....you can tap into, I dunno...say $200M provided by the league. It goes directly to construction costs......so the Flames could add $200M to whatever they were proposing to pay for a new rink.

The amount would increase with inflation and construction costs. Even if it was an interest free loan provided to teams by the NHL.......something.

Had the NHL pumped money into the Glendale Arena, it would be a lot easier to bail or demand a better deal when you contributed a reasonable amount to the construction of the building.

Canadian teams generally don't get handouts. Even the Edmonton arena.....by the end of the lease agreement the City will be made whole. The league/team showing up to talk with the City, Province or Feds....would look a lot better if they had a meaningful contribution.

With a $200M grant/loan from the league.....and say $200M of their own coin.....you're at $400M before asking the government for a dime. That's pretty decent and would be hard for government to shy away from a $400M investment like that.

The players wouldn't go for it, because it would cut into their revenue percentages for salary cap purposes. The owners wouldn't go for it for much the same reason but also because they would expected to pony up something....

 

[gordie]

Would like to see the promise the NHL made to Quebec to bring a team if they built a barn. I'm sure it's sitting right next to the promissory note made to Hamilton in the 1980s with Copps Coliseum....

So, here's the truth, the NHL NEVER promised any city anything with regards to a team. These cities built these facilities at risk, so NONE of them were owed anything....

So true. The Canadian Hockey Media based out of Toronto made Hamilton the promise of a team in the late 1970's early 1980's but nobody in that group consulted the Toronto Maple Leafs or Buffalo Sabres about how they would feel about another team infringing on their territory. At least Calgary doesn't have this problem and the Montreal Canadiens look like they don't care about sharing the Province of Quebec with another team anymore.

 

[Killion]

So true. The Canadian Hockey Media based out of Toronto made Hamilton the promise of a team in the late 1970's early 1980's but nobody in that group consulted the Toronto Maple Leafs or Buffalo Sabres about how they would feel about another team infringing on their territory. At least Calgary doesn't have this problem and the Montreal Canadiens look like they don't care about sharing the Province of Quebec with another team anymore.

Actually gordie.... Harold Ballard at the time did support Hamiltons' ambitions, the plans to build the arena & secure an NHL franchise at least publicly, though what he might have said & done behind the scenes is anyones guess. He owned the Hamilton Tiger Cats of the CFL as you'll recall, Ivor Wynne Stadium requiring reno's, so in a sort of tit for tat or you scratch my back.... supported Hamilton & the NHL at least conceptually. By the time Ron Joyce entered the fray with an actual application late 80's early 90's however, Ballard had sold the Ti-Cats & was in no position to support or object to Joyce & Hamilton as he was on his last legs, out of it for some time before passing away in April of 1990.

Buffalo on the other hand, yes, there were objections, native son Jeremy Jacobs in particular who despite owning Boston has considered it his duty to oversee & protect the Sabres as much as he can over the years which is understandable, even admirable, that he feels loyalty to his olde hometown, doesnt wanna see the Sabres, the fans, market getting hurt. Its completely misplaced in my opinion as having a closer rival, 3 way with the Leafs as well would in fact be a boon to the Sabres rather than posing a threat. Ticket sales are often cited, that Buffalo would be hit & hit hard however, they refuse to release the actual numbers of Canadian Seasons Ticket Holders with Hamilton & region Postal Codes, no proof whatsoever & I'm not buying it, lots of others dont as well. Posturing. Looking for maximum indemnification is what thats really all about. Same thing with the Leafs. Theres no way Hamilton eats into MLSE's, Rogers/Bell's profitability. Exact opposite in fact. Profit handsomely in perpetuity.

 

[JMROWE]

Stop with the Bettman USA bias. He's already threatened The Coyotes saying they're not viable in Glendale. He also moved the Thrashers to Winnipeg. Gary is nothing more than a puppet for the BOG. Ken King told him to come to town and say the Flames are in trouble because he didn't want to. Gary gets thrown to the wolves by the BOG because that is his job. That's why they pay him the big bucks

You know why the thrashers moved to Winnipeg one name David Thompson the richest man in Canada bought them & there was no way Gary Bettman & the NHL. BOG. where going to screw with this guy so they held there anti Canadian nose & let him do it .

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

You know why the thrashers moved to Winnipeg one name David Thompson the richest man in Canada bought them & there was no way Gary Bettman & the NHL. BOG. where going to screw with this guy so they held there anti Canadian nose & let him do it .

NOT exactly, why were the Manitoba Moose a qualified success and still are had the Thrashers not gone through the scenario.... Didn't Thomson also replace Winnipeg Arena in the midst of the Moose arrival from Minnesota, and then turned toward returning the Jets there, because the Moose were exiled to St. John's when the Jets 2.0 arrived.

 

[powerstuck]

Would like to see the promise the NHL made to Quebec to bring a team if they built a barn. I'm sure it's sitting right next to the promissory note made to Hamilton in the 1980s with Copps Coliseum....

So, here's the truth, the NHL NEVER promised any city anything with regards to a team. These cities built these facilities at risk, so NONE of them were owed anything....

Look, you can have your opinion and I can have mine. I just know that if some SHIT didn't happen, Penguins wouldn't have been Pittsburgh's in 2007.

But if we're to believe Mario Lemieux, whatever Flames owners or Gary Bettman says is just posturing to put pressure on the government to give them a brand new arena.

Mario Lemieux says the Penguins never were serious about leaving Pittsburgh.
"It wasn't a possibility," Lemieux said during a groundbreaking ceremony Thursday for Pittsburgh's $290 million hockey arena.
"We had to do a few things to put pressure on the city and the state, but our goal was to remain here in Pittsburgh all the way. Those trips to Kansas City and Vegas and other cities was just to go and have a nice dinner, and come back."

Source : Mario Lemieux was close to moving the Penguins.

 

[Jumptheshark]

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/bettman-says-flames-finances-impacted-by-the-aging-saddledome-1.3826477

Bettman said that Calgary used to be a top 10 team that made money for the league, but now over the past few years, the NHL has been the one writing cheques.

“The cheques are getting bigger and that means the situation, financially, continues to deteriorate and that will affect, I suppose, the competitiveness of the organization.”

***

Yet Forbes says Calgary Operating Income: $5.4 M

Bettman is so full of it. Anything to get the taxpayers to buy him a new building.

And what cheques is the NHL writing? The revenue sharing cheques like half the league gets.

Translation

Flames have seen all the bells and whistles on the Edmonton arena where there is new ways to suck money from fans and they want one. Last thing I read was that the city of Calgary has offered the same deal the oilers bit but they turned it down