C Will Smith - San Jose Sharks , NHL(2023, 4th, SJS)

[hohosaregood]

I've also watched almost all of BC's games or at the very least most of the freshman line's shifts and the PP's. I don't agree that Leonard looks so head and shoulders above everyone else, maybe it's a stylistic difference in evaluation. Gauthier looks like the pro, physically and in his tools, except he doesn't play smart like a pro, just hammers it at the net.

Leonard plays a very direct style, north-south, he's making more hits, he's digging pucks out, and he's driving to net front a lot more. But he's not actually creating all the chances (yes, he creates some, of course, he's having a great year). All of them are working well together with very different styles, as they have been for years.

Smith's style is very much more architect than shit stirrer, so he is less obvious on the ice. Sometimes this makes him invisible, sometimes it means his play is the reason there's a scoring chance at all. Sometimes he's caught in the wrong spot because the college game is so fast-paced, mistake-laden, turnover-heavy. This could mean his game will translate better when he's playing with better players (hopeful for Smith fans!), or it could mean he's failing to completely dominate the next level up (oh shit, bad news!) Truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but I just don't agree that he's getting carried by Leonard.

I watched most of that line's shifts too. I generally agree with everything else you've said. I don't really see dynamic offense from Leonard. He plays a game that every hockey coach would be happy to have on their team but I don't see him making plus level contributions to creating scoring chances. If anything, I think Perrault has been the most impressive on the line with his positioning and vision. He and Smith are the guys pushing play on that line to me.

I like a lot of things Smith does but he's still raw and has issues. I think his neutral zone transition game is strong with the way he breaks out pucks and the various ways he helps get through the neutral zone. This leads to a lot of the offense for that line He needs to work on his forward stride, strength and physicality on the boards, and cutting down on the turnovers at the opposing blue line but I think he's made good progress since the start of the season.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I've also watched almost all of BC's games or at the very least most of the freshman line's shifts and the PP's. I don't agree that Leonard looks so head and shoulders above everyone else, maybe it's a stylistic difference in evaluation. Gauthier looks like the pro, physically and in his tools, except he doesn't play smart like a pro, just hammers it at the net.

Leonard plays a very direct style, north-south, he's making more hits, he's digging pucks out, and he's driving to net front a lot more. But he's not actually creating all the chances (yes, he creates some, of course, he's having a great year). All of them are working well together with very different styles, as they have been for years.

Smith's style is very much more architect than shit stirrer, so he is less obvious on the ice. Sometimes this makes him invisible, sometimes it means his play is the reason there's a scoring chance at all. Sometimes he's caught in the wrong spot because the college game is so fast-paced, mistake-laden, turnover-heavy. This could mean his game will translate better when he's playing with better players (hopeful for Smith fans!), or it could mean he's failing to completely dominate the next level up (oh shit, bad news!) Truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but I just don't agree that he's getting carried by Leonard.

I think this really misses on some of Leonards greatest strengths and is more than just his off the game puck in the OZ is pretty superb. Timing plays, routing himself to the net and by defenders to create space for his line mates - He's pretty f***ing elite at these things.

Don't want to gush too much about him in a Smith thread as he has his own space for that.

You're not saying that because it's obvious that Perreault isn't doing that as he's not a line driver at all.

Leonard is impressive but the line and players and their roles don't look different than they were last season playing NCAA teams.

I couldn't care less about draft position. But either you're new to this line and Smith if you think his turnovers are some revelation, or you're unfairly expecting a player to have fixed all the deficiencies in their game in a couple of months just because they went higher in the draft than their linemates. Yes, Smith has things he needs to improve on, as everyone who's followed him knew. No he hasn't completely fixed them in less than 3 months. No, that doesn't he's not meeting expectations.

TIL that turnovers are a key component to being a player driver.

...But it can't because he's a decision maker/problem solver right? Nahhhh, that'd make too much sense.

But what you've done is really equate lighting a cardboard box on fire to lighting an entire building on fire. I'm familiar with all of their games and know what their strengths and weaknesses are. Smith's problems have been magnified even more so at this level (to the point where he'll have 3, 4, or like that one immaculate shift against Maine a few weeks ago where he had 5 turnovers in a single shift.) Not one offs either, this has happened A LOT this year.

I don't want to dump on the kid and make it sound like he's been Charlie Stramel. I don't think he's been bad - he's had some really great flashes but you've clearly got blinders on here with him. He's been worse than the other 2 and honestly it's okay. This doesn't mean that it'll continue to play out that way but thats how it's been 16 games into their NCAA careers.

If you or anyone else wants to take a bit of comfort in anything, it should be that he's been so productive despite the drawbacks.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

Rangers couldn't just move on after beating us last night...had to send a fan in to our top prospects thread to tell us their prospect on the same college team is better

 

[2014nyr]

Opinions on the Sharks boards are mixed, and I would never claim to speak definitively.

Everyone generally knew that Smith was a tier below the top 3, so it's not too surprising (but it is a bit depressing) to see how well the top three picks are doing in the NHL.

that said, many folks believe that Smith is driving the play on the freshman line, or at least is a very important component of it, at BC, and his production is still exciting...

That said, his weaknesses are evident. He's not particularly strong in his own zone, and he often appears to be floating (some of us see that as he's ahead of the play and looking for opportunities, others see it as lazy or disinterested)...

Everyone agrees that he's dangerous on the power play. Everyone also agrees that he seems to need to work on his top skating speed and general strength, with some folks thinking that's a natural thing to work on and others being more worried.

Some people think he's still got a really high ceiling, others think he will be best on the wing in the NHL, others think he's tracking more as a complementary 2C, and still others think he looks like a bust whose game won't translate. Everyone agrees it's likely going to take longer for him to be NHL ready than many of the other top prospects.

Most people think it was the right pick at 4OA, and a handful think we should have taken Michkov regardless of whether he would have agreed to play for us or not, because he would have been a trade asset.

I personally think he's tracking as a complementary 2C (and like everyone I'm hoping for Celebrini or a different top end 1C in the next 3 drafts) and I think he needs to figure out how to get stronger, faster, and build a better 2 way game if he wants his ceiling to be higher than that. I don't personally agree that he looks like the worst of his 3 linemates, where Leonard plays very directly but isn't better in any area except hits, net front play, and board battles, and Perreault is very good with Smith but not necessarily creating without him. I personally think he looks like just as good a prospect as Gauthier, who is more of an NHL body and has a heavy shot but plays like a bit of a meat head out there where Smith's offensive hockey IQ is very high as advertised.

i don't want to turn this into a one vs the other contest, but i would push back against the narrative that perrault can't create without smith, and the numbers bear that out. perrault has been involved in 8 goals without smith, smith has been involved in 7 without perrault. smith also has 8 of his 15 assists being secondary while perrault has 5 secondary assists on 19 total. obviously they have great chemistry and produce together, but this accepted narrative that perrrault is dependent on smith fails both the eye and statistical tests.

as far as smith, personally i've been underwhelmed so far. that said, i would also say his projection has an extremely wide range in play. right now he's just not strong enough on the puck or explosive enough skating to be capable of playing the game he plays at higher levels. those things are physical though and can take huge strides, like in a year he could be looked at in an entirely different light. he's still young enough, and he looks extremely young, which leads me to believe there's a real chance he makes massive strides in his strength over the next couple years. if he doesn't make huge strides in those areas though, he's a middle 6 pp specialist at best. the puck skills, iq, and agility are all there though which gives him a real chance.

at this point leonard and perrault have been the more impressive players on that line, though leonard is a very different player than the other 2. i love that kids game, he's the kind of player every team in the league wants to have...he could be a souped up ryan callahan ie a puckhounding forechecking menace that can hammer people and could get 40 tucks on the right line. to be clear i'm not by any means trying to put smith down, it's not like he's been bad at all. speaking relatively though, the other two have stood out more to me in how they're able to impact play. smith retains an upside the other two don't have though and it's entirely possible he reaches it. in my view where he is now physically, with the style he plays, means he has the most to do to reach it though.

 

[coooldude]

i don't want to turn this into a one vs the other contest, but i would push back against the narrative that perrault can't create without smith, and the numbers bear that out.

All well thought out, but nobody actually said Perreault couldn't create without Smith (I certainly didn't). I was talking much more about Leonard. For one, Smith and Perreault are often being split on the PP. For two, Perreault and Smith are playing off each other very creatively, while Leonard is often involved but more often just bird dogging, playing hard nosed hockey, etc. which creates the space and opportunities for the other two.

Also, unsurprisingly, the discussion is falling very clearly along the lines of "whose team are you a fan of?" You're a Rangers fan, so you see all the best parts of Perreault. I'm a Sharks fan, so I'm paying more attention to Smith's play. The other guy is also a Rangers fan.

As for your points, on Leonard, I think Leonard has a bright future, but I wouldn't swap him with Smith as a prospect, for what the Sharks are hoping for in the future. We have a (hopefully) bigger version of Leonard in Musty.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Rangers fans pumping their prospect is nothing new, nothing to take seriously.

 

[GAGLine]

Rangers fans pumping their prospect is nothing new, nothing to take seriously.

To be fair, it's one Ranger fan.

I've watched as many BC games as anyone, and anyone who thinks they know what any of those 3 players will be in the NHL is fooling themselves. All 3 have done things well and all 3 have done things poorly. They all have things to work on. Leonard is the flashiest of the 3, but no one should interpret that as proof that he is/will be the best of the 3.

 

[majormajor]

Rangers couldn't just move on after beating us last night...had to send a fan in to our top prospects thread to tell us their prospect on the same college team is better

It's okay Stewie. You guys drafted a future star last summer*. Ignore the haters.

*Quentin Musty.

 

[rangersfansince08]

Rangers fans pumping their prospect is nothing new, nothing to take seriously.

Yea no other fanbase ever does that

 

[Stewie Griffin]

To be fair, it's one Ranger fan.

I've watched as many BC games as anyone, and anyone who thinks they know what any of those 3 players will be in the NHL is fooling themselves. All 3 have done things well and all 3 have done things poorly. They all have things to work on. Leonard is the flashiest of the 3, but no one should interpret that as proof that he is/will be the best of the 3.

And I think Leonard is the easiest to notice just because of how he plays. Since they've been playing together for so long now, it's hard to pinpoint if Player A looks good because of something Player B does or vice versa.

It would've been really interesting to see the 3 of them go to different colleges.

 

[Mattb124]

Yea no other fanbase ever does that

To be fair, the Sharks board usually finds reasons to crap all over their prospects so this is uncharted territory for some.

 

[AlexModvechkin8]

Just popping in to say thank you to the BC fans for posting your evals of Leonard and Perreault in addition to Smith. I don't get to watch BC as often as I'd like (have probably seen 5-6 of their games this year) but all three of those guys have bright futures ahead of them.

 

[Levitate]

Just popping in to say thank you to the BC fans for posting your evals of Leonard and Perreault in addition to Smith. I don't get to watch BC as often as I'd like (have probably seen 5-6 of their games this year) but all three of those guys have bright futures ahead of them.

From my somewhat limited viewings, I think honestly overall it's 3 talented guys who work well together and when it comes down to "so and so doesn't drive play" that's missing the point...talented players are gonna play with other talented players and they'll all feed off of that. Unless you're talking about generational type talents you're not gonna get guys turning grinders into first liners by being the "drivers of play".

With this group, my little bit of viewing lends me to believe that Perreault is very good at being the guy who can extend the play and find his teammates or create chances for them, but Smith is good at that downhill type of game going to the net and Leonard plays smart without the puck to be in the right place at the right time. There's a lot of complementary play going on here and anyone getting on one of these guys for "not driving play" is out to lunch on how the game is played.

Separate them and who knows what you get exactly because it depends a little on who they'd end up with . Perrreault needs some players who can put the puck in the net and play a downhill game, Smith is a bit in the middle but benefits from a player like Leonard who can be i the right place or someone like Perreault who can get him int he puck at the right time, or Leonard benefits from...I dunno, skilled players in general. I lost my thought because I've been day drinking.

They're good players...but good players play with other good players in order to produce at their best level.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Leading the tournament in FO% through three games at 74.4%.

So much for him only caring about showing up to score points.

 

[sigx15]

Leading the tournament in FO% through three games at 74.4%.

So much for him only caring about showing up to score points.

Where’d you find faceoff stats? I’ve been looking and couldn’t find them. I thought him and Cutter were looking good there but was curious to see the actual stats. I think this goes to show how much strength matters with face offs. He’s been borderline atrocious at BC at the dot but against kids his own age, he’s doing well. Hopefully he can carry that into the 2nd half

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Where’d you find faceoff stats? I’ve been looking and couldn’t find them.

IIHF - Statistics 2024 IIHF WORLD JUNIOR CHAMPIONSHIP

IIHF - Statistics 2024 IIHF WORLD JUNIOR CHAMPIONSHIP

www.iihf.com

 

[sigx15]

IIHF - Statistics 2024 IIHF WORLD JUNIOR CHAMPIONSHIP

IIHF - Statistics 2024 IIHF WORLD JUNIOR CHAMPIONSHIP

www.iihf.com

Big time duh on my part. I’m used to scouring college hockey game sheets for face offs stats and not having them readily available like this. Good to see stats backing up the eye test

 

[sigx15]

Leading the tournament in FO% through three games at 74.4%.

So much for him only caring about showing up to score points.

Just for reference for people to understand how stark of a difference this is from his season at BC, he's at 40.7% on the season this year. BC is one of the worst face off teams in the country this year and it's been a big reason for some of their losses like vs. Maine. Cutter hasn't been great either at 47.9%. Maybe they can cheat more at the WJC but I also think taking faceoffs against 18/19 year olds all the time vs. 22-24 year olds in college hockey is a big difference. I think it's a pretty promising sign the technique is there for him, just a strength factor at this point

 

[coooldude]

1g/1a today with 75% FOW (12/16) and third-fewest minutes. The BC line were clear 3rd line but only 2 forwards had fewer minutes and only by a little bit.

The Assist was a secondary off a smart pass from low to high on the PP, followed by a cross-ice pass that Snuggerud absolutely lasered top shelf. (secondary A's are becoming a running inside joke on the sharks forum, some people think he has too many secondary assists = less impressive).

The goal was a model shift... Smith backchecked to create a turnover to his D, then turned around and chased down a 50/50 puck on the o-zone sidewall, won the puck, got it back to the D man, puck made its way into the far corner where Leonard nearly lost it pushing to the slot. Meanwhile, Smith had found his way to the front of the net, then cycled around and lost his defender at the back door where Perreault found him with a sick cross-ice pass thru low slot for the goal. It was a wide open net but Smith still did well to corral the pass and bury it quickly.

Overall, a much better showing on limited ice time in the semifinal game, after a fairly invisible showing so far that nonetheless has him scoring points with his ever-present linemates. Hopefully he plays well tomorrow.

Entire goal sequence here

https://x.com/Sheng_Peng/status/1743023616848171393?s=20

 

[The Crypto Guy]

1g/1a today with 75% FOW (12/16) and third-fewest minutes. The BC line were clear 3rd line but only 2 forwards had fewer minutes and only by a little bit.

The Assist was a secondary off a smart pass from low to high on the PP, followed by a cross-ice pass that Snuggerud absolutely lasered top shelf. (secondary A's are becoming a running inside joke on the sharks forum, some people think he has too many secondary assists = less impressive).

The goal was a model shift... Smith backchecked to create a turnover to his D, then turned around and chased down a 50/50 puck on the o-zone sidewall, won the puck, got it back to the D man, puck made its way into the far corner where Leonard nearly lost it pushing to the slot. Meanwhile, Smith had found his way to the front of the net, then cycled around and lost his defender at the back door where Perreault found him with a sick cross-ice pass thru low slot for the goal. It was a wide open net but Smith still did well to corral the pass and bury it quickly.

Overall, a much better showing on limited ice time in the semifinal game, after a fairly invisible showing so far that nonetheless has him scoring points with his ever-present linemates. Hopefully he plays well tomorrow.

Entire goal sequence here

https://x.com/Sheng_Peng/status/1743023616848171393?s=20

Aside from the top line, nobody was really getting a ton of ice on forwards (and even the 1st line was only getting 17 minutes). Coach is very even between the 2nd and 3rd line so it's hard to say which is the 3rd line (though i guess since they are the younger line you could decide from that).

 

[Juxtaposer]

Aside from the top line, nobody was really getting a ton of ice on forwards (and even the 1st line was only getting 17 minutes). Coach is very even between the 2nd and 3rd line so it's hard to say which is the 3rd line (though i guess since they are the younger line you could decide from that).

Gauthier got 16:38 and Nazar got 17:10. Even Quinn Finley got 13:52. Meanwhile Smith got 12:47. Absolutey a disparity.

 

[Kearns]

Gauthier got 16:38 and Nazar got 17:10. Even Quinn Finley got 13:52. Meanwhile Smith got 12:47. Absolutey a disparity.

The ice time is as you say. Should we be surprised? Three 2022 draft's 19 year olds getting more ice time than an 18 year old is not surprising to me. To a high degree, this is a 19 year old tournament. Smith is showing the progress he needs to show, at BC and here in this tourney, during his D1 season.

 

[Juxtaposer]

The ice time is as you say. Should we be surprised? Three 2022 draft's 19 year olds getting more ice time than an 18 year old is not surprising to me. To a high degree, this is a 19 year old tournament. Smith is showing the progress he needs to show, at BC and here in this tourney, during his D1 season.

Of course not, I’m just countering the claim that Smith is getting as much ice time as the Gauthier and Nazar lines.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Of course not, I’m just countering the claim that Smith is getting as much ice time as the Gauthier and Nazar lines.

What are you talking about? I said "aside from the top line" the other 3 lines got similar ice, which is correct. A minute or 2 more isn't much of a difference. Not sure what your trying to counter.

 

[Juxtaposer]

What are you talking about? I said "aside from the top line" the other 3 lines got similar ice, which is correct. A minute or 2 more isn't much of a difference. Not sure what your trying to counter.

Gauthier and Nazar, who center separate lines, had 4+ minutes more than Smith, who centers another separate line. The fact that I can’t tell what line you mean by “top line” should make it evident that “the three other lines” did not get similar ice time, as you claim.