- Dec 20, 2018
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What did Buffalo do? The NHL decided to change the rules in 2014 but they didn’t go fully into effect until 2016. I don’t see how you can blame a team that never drafted 1OA.
C Tim Stützle (2020, 3rd, OTT) Part 2
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Samsquanch
Raging Bull Squatch
How am I speaking in absolutes?
I said in the opening paragraph theres a chance, and that nothing is certain....?
And if my statement that says afterwards that it will be a long shot for Raymond to pass Stuetzle one day bothers you, I'm sorry but that's completely accurate and fair. Im sure 95% of people would agree it's possible that it could happen, but still very unlikely based on what we have observed up to this point on Stuetzle and how dominant he looks. Raymond has done nothing to indicate so far that hes going to be at the same level.
- Apr 27, 2005
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I think its extremely unrealistic to expect Raymond to ever be as good as Stutzle, let alone better than him.
Our Lady Peace
Registered User
"Expect" is not the word I used. I said the possibility is there, which, is a legitimate opinion to have. No matter how much people have had the chance to watch one player and not watch the other in the past 45 days.
Our Lady Peace
Registered User
Perhaps 'absolute' was not the term I meant but rather emphatically assured that Stutzle will and always will be the better player. I can't really agree with that.
Certainly my take is obviously less popular but if you watched Raymond play, his upside is enormous. IMO it's enormous enough to warrant some kind of discussion. Clearly people don't want to have that discussion at this time because one player is performing very well in the NHL and the other is in the SHL.
It will be hilarious when/if he has a sophomore slump and this whole website implodes and debates if he's worth his draft position anymore. Kinda like Lafreniere currently, who IMO, will still be the best player from this draft after all is said and done.
- Apr 27, 2005
- 36,107
- 35,942
Stutzle has been the better player/prospect for well over a year. This isn't a trend that started in the last month.
I would bet significant sums of money that Raymond never approaches Stutzle's ability.
RedHawkDown
still trying to trust the yzerplan
People here have the shortest memories in the world. I posted earlier in this thread that I really wish we got Stutzle. But let’s not pretend like there’s some astronomical gap here.
Here’s an article from March of last year: The Race For 3rd Overall: Lucas Raymond or Tim Stützle? - DraftGeek
- Apr 27, 2005
- 36,107
- 35,942
Real good scouting report there on Stutzle lol. Its like they never even watched the player.
"Now, this focus on his lateral agility and quickness isn’t to undermine Stützle’s straight-line speed. The German moves very well himself linearly, just not to the extent of Raymond. He isn’t going to blaze through the neutral zone and catch defenders off guard like Raymond can, and is unlikely to push defenders back and create real frontwards space for himself with his speed alone, but Stützle is an above-average skater that can create separation from backcheckers off the rush"
Golden_Jet
Registered User
- Sep 21, 2005
- 28,026
- 14,935
Raymond 1/2 point per game for Frolunda, and Stützle same rate but in the NHL.
That ones brutal. I know skating is much easier to scout in person, but anyone who watched Stutzle could tell he can rip through the neutral zone. Whoever Eliteprospects had covering the draft for them also had some really brutal takes.
Our Lady Peace
Registered User
Yes, and historically we have seen players like Stutzle be ranked like that over another player for some length of time and that other player surpasses them eventually. This again touches on development not being linear.
I get that you don't foresee it possible but I do think so, so I guess we agree to disagree.
- Jan 24, 2007
- 7,674
- 8,367
My recollection was always that the rule changes were in response to the Sabres tanking the McDavid/Eichel year, knowing that the last place team got at worst Eichel.
Looks like those changes were announced august 2014 before the season started
NHL announces changes to Draft Lottery format
Sabres began dismantling their team in 2013-14 season in preparation to tank the next year
2013–14 Buffalo Sabres season - Wikipedia
Either the NHL saw what they were doing early, or simply realized that situations like two great players at the top of the draft were going to be commonplace and incentivized tanking some years so they changed the rules in response. I don't know where the idea that the rules were changed because the Oilers kept winning the lottery came from.
Samsquanch
Raging Bull Squatch
I dont think that you do get it though...
Everyone in here, literally all of us, believe that its possible for something like this to happen.
What your missing is that literally you are the only person who seems to believe there is more than a "very slim" chance it happens. If your only argument as of today is that not all player development is linear - well that's simply not a good enough answer to move this out of the "very slim/unrealistic" category for anyone looking at the facts.
See now?
I feel where you are coming from my guy. For me personally, Raymond just isn't at the point is his development to entertain a case of Raymond > Stützle. He has all the tools though so it is possible.
He just hasn't really elevated Frolunda this season, especially in games where they need him to make a difference. It is probably the reason why he has moved up and down their lineup. He just isn't there for them on a consistent basis in the SHL. Stützle might not score every game, but he has made an impact in the NHL consistently for Ottawa. For that reason, I can't really see a solid basis for Raymond's case at this moment in time.
Side note, Mo Seider is a beast and has looked fantastic since his return from injury. Even w/o points. Really elevates Rölge seemingly every shift he is out there. You could make a solid case for him over any D in the past 2 drafts. Probably face some push back from Avs fans about Byram, but the kid has been nothing short of game changing for his team this season. Record w/o Seider 2 wins and started the Seiderless strut off with 3 consecutive losses(2/3 Ls to teams close to the bottom standings wise). Seider returns 2 straight shutout Ws
Our Lady Peace
Registered User
I'm not sure I could be any more understanding of the fact that Stutzle is clearly currently a better hockey player. I said:
"Clearly people don't want to have that discussion at this time because one player is performing very well in the NHL and the other is in the SHL."
I don't know if you took it the wrong way, but that's a fact and I was acknowledging it.
It's abundantly clear to me where you're coming from. I'm obviously optimistic. It would be silly if I were to vehemently stick to such an unpopular opinion based on what we know today. Geez shoot me for thinking such a thing has a chance of possibility, albeit a currently 'low' possibility
Sun God Nika
Palestine 🇵🇸
DrSense
Registered User
- Oct 4, 2017
- 794
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Interesting article, but really a bit of anomaly. The gap between Byfield and Stutzle was very small. The gap after the top 3 was quite large, and Raymond wasn't even the guy coming close to cracking the top 3, according to the experts anyway. This is based on MacKenzie, Button or the CSS folks podcasts.
For context, several ratings had Stutzle ahead of Byfield ( Button and a few others), where as no ratings had Raymond ahead of Stutzle. Raymond wasn't even #4 on the consensus / average, and had ratings like 9th (Button), 9th (Draft Analyst), 11th (Redline) and many other ratings outside the top 5. In all the ratings I looked at (over 10), none had Raymond at #3, and only 2 had him at #4.
That said, many acknowledged Raymond's upside, and still do. The guy could absolutely end up a 1st line player. So in that context, I get the Raymond comparison to Stutzle. If Sens missed on Stutzle for some reason, I don't think anyone would have complained if we took him at #5 or later. A lot to love about the way he plays and he is fun to watch for sure. But more people were probably comparing and debating Raymond v Perfetti as a debate, rather than Raymond-Stutzle.
BondraTime
Registered User
Elite prospects is a terrible site for evaluation. They should stick to what they can do, which is compiling other draft lists and stats of players.
Listening to their draft podcast was like listening to a bunch of guys who have no clue what they’re talking about.
Agent Zuuuub
Registered User
- Jan 2, 2015
- 15,721
- 13,457
He's starting to put up a show every night now.
Draisaitl-esque backhand sauce
Draisaitl-esque backhand sauce
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McFlyingV
Registered User
I'm loving this kid, but thats no Draisaitl sauce, far too much bounce on that one. I don't know how Draisaitl does it but every backhand sauce of his lands perfectly flat.
Tim's gonna be a stud with his hands and hockey IQ combo, and he's got a nice quick release. Pretty exciting to see some stars coming out of Germany lately.
OKR
Registered User
- Nov 18, 2015
- 3,611
- 3,827
Hfboards really do love him, never see him get any shit for his bad mistakes and turnovers that are quite frequent still, partially because of his style too. Once he gets those cut down he will be incredible, Most exciting prospect to watch since McDavid for me.
umma gumma
Registered User
- Apr 8, 2005
- 3,815
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Mistakes are expected with less than 20 NHL games played, he's going to have to make them as he adjusts and learns what he can and can't get away with. Now, if he's making the same mistakes 3-4 years from now...
ReginKarlssonLehner
Let's Win It All
In the beginning of the season I agree he was making huge amount of mistakes. Last 5 games though? Hardly as many. He is definitely improving with his decision making and play away from the puck. In fact he's been a better takeaway player than most on the Sens lately. He's 6th on the team in takeaways/pg.
His skills are undeniable. What’s going to make him a superstar is his insane work ethic and overwhelming desire to be great. He loves hockey and it’s going to drive him to be a superstar.
Raymond vs Stutzle? I’m a wings fan and would take stutzle 10 time out of 10
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