C Quinton Byfield (2020, 2nd, LAK) part IV

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Why the insistence by some that Laf will morph into a star first line player, and a generational one according to some of his predraft chatter?

He’s not a bust but he’s a disappointment relative to predraft expectations. Long term he’s likely a middle 6 winger. Serviceable but not great.

If that draft were redone tomorrow is anyone here picking Laf over Byfield? Stutzle? Lucas Raymond, maybe??

He's been a second line winger this season starting the season at 21 and now after turning 22, doesn't get usage conducive to scoring any more than he does (this has been true his whole career), and you think he's going to stay the same or go backwards? His scoring has also went up every season of his career.

 

[The Real JT]

He's been a second line winger this season starting the season at 21 and now after turning 22, doesn't get usage conducive to scoring any more than he does (this has been true his whole career), and you think he's going to stay the same or go backwards? His scoring has also went up every season of his career.

I blame myself for not anticipating the inevitable “he doesn’t get prime ice time or PP minutes.” Is playing with Panarin and a solid player like Trochek not enough?

I encourage any of his fans not to twist the intention of this quote, but let me reference a few stats in Islander history. Matt Moulson and PA Parenteau had way better seasons even excluding PP time while playing with Tavares than Laf has had. It helps to play with skilled line mates.

I’m just not very impressed. Doesn’t mean he sucks.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I blame myself for not anticipating the inevitable “he doesn’t get prime ice time or PP minutes.” Is playing with Panarin and a solid player like Trochek not enough?

I encourage any of his fans not to twist the intention of this quote, but let me reference a few stats in Islander history. Matt Moulson and PA Parenteau had way better seasons even excluding PP time while playing with Tavares than Laf has had. It helps to play with skilled line mates.

I’m just not very impressed. Doesn’t mean he sucks.

No, it's not enough. It's pretty common knowledge that there's a ceiling of like 55-60 points if you are PP2 on a team that plays PP1 like 2/3 of the time. And playing with Trocheck? How is that some big accomplishment? Is a 1OA not supposed to play with other good NHL players by year 4? Trocheck wasn't even supposed to be on this line. He was supposed to be on the third line.

You mean Matt Moulson had one season at age 27 and PA Paranteau at age 28 had one season, not multiple, that is out of reach for 22 year old Lafreniere this season? Pathetic attempt at a take-down. Those players were nowhere near as successful when they were Lafreniere's age. If you think Lafreniere is leaching points off Panarin, as you are certainly suggesting, you don't have a clue what you're saying.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

No, it's not enough. It's pretty common knowledge that there's a ceiling of like 55-60 points if you are PP2 on a team that plays PP1 like 2/3 of the time. And playing with Trocheck? How is that some big accomplishment? Is a 1OA not supposed to play with other good NHL players by year 4? Trocheck wasn't even supposed to be on this line. He was supposed to be on the third line.

You mean Matt Moulson had one season at age 27 and PA Paranteau at age 28 had one season, not multiple, that is out of reach for 22 year old Lafreniere this season? Pathetic attempt at a take-down. Those players were nowhere near as successful when they were Lafreniere's age. If you think Lafreniere is leaching points off Panarin, as you are certainly suggesting, you don't have a clue what you're saying.

He IS glued to Panarin, though. That's a guy on pace for 112 pts. If that's not 'other good NHL players' you may want to adjust your expectations.

And since you wanted to use some of those stats to motherf*** Byfield, here's the comparison

I don't know enough about Laf to talk knowledgeably about his deployment like you are about Byfield. All I know--this is the Byfield thread, after all--is he is the #1 line driver on the #1 line eating all the toughest matchups since teams know they can load up against them now and thriving and learning more each game. Laf has been impressive looking and growing every time I've watched, but much like Byfield last year, the results haven't caught up to the play/'expected' stats.

Believe me when I say we have sympathy pains if deployment is a concern, we're dealing with Todd McLellan after all, but if that's the case, you don't need to come in swinging, especially while ignorant of anything but QBs statsheet, which is clear.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

And since you wanted to use some of those stats to motherf*** Byfield, here's the comparison

Believe me when I say we have sympathy pains if deployment is a concern, we're dealing with Todd McLellan after all, but if that's the case, you don't need to come in swinging, especially while ignorant of anything but QBs statsheet, which is clear.

Again, I'll reiterate I didn't criticize Byfield. You are looking for a fight that doesn't exist.

 

[majormajor]

He's been a second line winger this season starting the season at 21 and now after turning 22, doesn't get usage conducive to scoring any more than he does (this has been true his whole career), and you think he's going to stay the same or go backwards? His scoring has also went up every season of his career.

Artemi Panarin has shown an ability to carry linemates that is nearly unparalleled in the whole NHL. Then you go and write this about a guy who has been on his line all year.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

Again, I'll reiterate I didn't criticize Byfield. You are looking for a fight that doesn't exist.

Point is, was it really that bad what was said about Lafreniere, to take this route. I don’t think so.

”Of course he (Quinton) has more points” was your exact quote. Like the points are just falling into his lap due to playing on the first line.
“Let's just not make it out like he's playing like some superstar and Lafreniere is playing like some bum” was another one. No certainly not like a superstar but everyone can see Byfield is playing more like a 2nd overall pick than Lafreniere is as a 1st overall.

The negativity around Lafreniere is annoying but this is a topic about Byfield and at this point it’s not close unless Lafreniere takes another step, no matter how you try to spin it.

Its not ok to act innocent now. You made some false claims.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Again, I'll reiterate I didn't criticize Byfield. You are looking for a fight that doesn't exist.

I think I've been blunt but polite. I'm not looking for a fight. I'm pointing out that you're defending Laf in a QB thread by tearing down QB's production from a Laf perspective. And if you weren't doing that, you'd probably find some empathy from QB fans who had put up with that until now, as well.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Point is, was it really that bad what was said about Lafreniere, to take this route. I don’t think so.

”Of course he (Quinton) has more points” was your exact quote. Like the points are just falling into his lap due to playing on the first line.
“Let's just not make it out like he's playing like some superstar and Lafreniere is playing like some bum” was another one. No certainly not like a superstar but everyone can see Byfield is playing more like a 2nd overall pick than Lafreniere is as a 1st overall.

The negativity around Lafreniere is annoying but this is a topic about Byfield and at this point it’s not close unless Lafreniere takes another step, no matter how you try to spin it.

Its not ok to act innocent now. You made some false claims.

If you take offense to the first bolded point, that's on you. It's not remotely offensive and I haven't criticized him once. It's pretty logical that if one player has demonstrably better usage they will put up more total points. I've tried to be respectful against people who are very much not being respectful, but I'm not going to be disparaged for a non-offensive remark.

With the same usage who would have more total points? Impossible to know. We have a lot of different metrics to use to compare. And I did use those to show how they might compare with the exact same usage. Byfield comes out first in some, and Lafreniere in others. That's pretty clear in the comparison that was made. If those stats are viewed as criticizing Byfield, that's again on you. That's not offensive. Stats shouldn't be offensive. If you are going to claim that your player is so much better, well then that's being a homer, as I see it. I don't claim all the favorable stats towards my player are the only important ones or miss the differences in comparing their situations. You seem to want to miss that.

And please drop the act. If I wanted to criticize Byfield, I would've. I didn't make false claims. I didn't criticize Byfield. I have no responsibility to praise Byfield as some god when there's a comparison made to another player who is being unfairly criticized to prop up Byfield.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I think I've been blunt but polite. I'm not looking for a fight. I'm pointing out that you're defending Laf in a QB thread by tearing down QB's production from a Laf perspective. And if you weren't doing that, you'd probably find some empathy from QB fans who had put up with that until now, as well.

I didn't tear his production down. You seem to be missing this. I don't think showing that Lafreniere is better in some stats is a criticism of Byfield. Lafreniere is a good player, and it shouldn't be looked at as a criticism for Byfield to fare worse in some metrics.

Both are having good seasons, and are doing a lot better now in reaching expectations than before.

Of course I understand why Kings fans are defensive about Byfield, just as you guys should understand why Rangers fans are defensive about Lafreniere.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

If you take offense to the first bolded point, that's on you. It's not remotely offensive and I haven't criticized him once. It's pretty logical that if one player has demonstrably better usage they will put up more total points. I've tried to be respectful against people who are very much not being respectful, but I'm not going to be disparaged for a non-offensive remark.

With the same usage who would have more total points? Impossible to know. We have a lot of different metrics to use to compare. And I did use those to show how they might compare with the exact same usage. Byfield comes out first in some, and Lafreniere in others. That's pretty clear in the comparison that was made. If those stats are viewed as criticizing Byfield, that's again on you. That's not offensive. Stats shouldn't be offensive. If you are going to claim that your player is so much better, well then that's being a homer, as I see it. I don't claim all the favorable stats towards my player are the only important ones or miss the differences in comparing their situations. You seem to want to miss that.

And please drop the act. If I wanted to criticize Byfield, I would've. I didn't make false claims. I didn't criticize Byfield. I have no responsibility to praise Byfield as some god when there's a comparison made to another player who is being unfairly criticized to prop up Byfield.

OK its all clear now.

In hindsight, RJ was way to polite. You basically deserve all the smack.

I am not even going to bother.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

“Hey guys Byfield is okay I guess but what about Lafreniere?”

Followed by

“I’m not disparaging Byfield wtf”

In a BYFIELD THREAD.

Peak clown car.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

“Hey guys Byfield is okay I guess but what about Lafreniere?”

Followed by

“I’m not disparaging Byfield wtf”

In a BYFIELD THREAD.

Peak clown car.

Except this is not how the discussion went. I quoted a post that specifically criticized Lafreniere to prop up Byfield.

But don't let that get in your way of crying foul for no reason.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Nice passive-aggressive comment.

And to be clear, this is not how the discussion went. I quoted a post that specifically criticized Lafreniere to prop up Byfield.

But don't let that get in your way of crying foul for no reason.

I called your posts “peak clown car.”

Do you know what passive aggressive means?

 

[unicornpig]

Why are rangers fans so worried about by field, they should be more concerned about kakko and laf barely improving in his 4th year

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I called your posts “peak clown car.”

Do you know what passive aggressive means?

Not quoting someone, and commenting below them about their post is passive-aggressive.

But yes turn this into a definitions discussion instead of discussing why you are attacking me for responding to a unfair criticism of Lafreniere.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Why are rangers fans so worried about by field, they should be more concerned about kakko and laf barely improving in his 4th year

Why are Kings fans then so worried about Lafreniere? Could level the same thing about your players, couldn't we?

And you are directing this towards me, so I'll respond directly to it. I am not worried about Byfield. I will however respond if my player is unfairly criticized to prop up another team's player. If you think it's a criticism of your player to deliver stats that show another player being better in certain metrics, thats on you. If I wanted to criticize Byfield, I would've.

 

[unicornpig]

Not quoting someone, and commenting below them about their post is passive-aggressive.

But yes turn this into a definitions discussion instead of discussing why you are attacking me for responding to a unfair criticism of Lafreniere.

You got butt hurt that some random poster said he goes into pointless rútts, then you doubled down by saying they are having equivalent seasons which they are not. You should quit now before you dig a deeper hole

Why are Kings fans then so worried about Lafreniere? Could level the same thing about your players, couldn't we?

And you are directing this towards me, so I'll respond directly to it. I am not worried about Byfield. I will however respond if my player is unfairly criticized to prop up another team's player. If you think it's a criticism of your player to deliver stats that show another player being better in certain metrics, thats on you. If I wanted to criticize Byfield, I would've.

No kings fans are, a random poster not even a kings fans just made a comment about Laf, you then decided to make this thread about làf by posting something asinine and now everyone is taking a dump on you and rightfully so

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

You got butt hurt that some random poster said he goes into pointless rútts, then you doubled down by saying saying they are having equivalent seasons which they are not. You should quit now before you dig a deeper hole

Ah yes, I got "butt hurt." Real insightful analysis there.

Well actually, I was not the one that said it was a criticism for my team's player to have worse stats in certain areas. That would seem to be the "butt-hurt" within this discussion.

And also, no one even criticized Byfield. How is this real that anyone is offended? The actual criticisms were against Lafreniere.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Not quoting someone, and commenting below them about their post is passive-aggressive.

But yes turn this into a definitions discussion instead of discussing why you are attacking me for responding to a unfair criticism of Lafreniere.

Are you the etiquette police? It’s a sports forum, you wimp.

Your response to an “unfair criticism” is meaningless statistical book cooking to justify Lafreniere’s lack of production. There’s nothing to respond to. The stats are what they are. Lafreniere is developing nicely as a depth forward, and Byfield has passed him up.

You can “but ackshually” that however you want. That’s exactly why I called you out on your copium to start. But the facts are the facts. Byfield is clearly ahead of Lafreniere this year in almost every measurable way.

Why you feel the need to be the president of the Lafreniere booster club in a f***ing Byfield thread is beyond me.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Are you the etiquette police? It’s a sports forum, you wimp.

Your response to an “unfair criticism” is meaningless statistical book cooking to justify Lafreniere’s lack of production. There’s nothing to respond to. The stats are what they are. Lafreniere is developing nicely as a depth forward, and Byfield has passed him up.

You can “but ackshually” that however you want. That’s exactly why I called you out on your copium to start. But the facts are the facts. Byfield is clearly ahead of Lafreniere this year in almost every measurable way.

Why you feel the need to be the president of the Lafreniere booster club in a f***ing Byfield thread is beyond me.

I'm a wimp, and you can't even respond to me directly? Hilarious.

I've been very generous in responding to people getting offended at nothing. It has never been my aim to criticize Byfield, but since you've decided to be completely disrespectful and full-throated attack Lafreniere, we can get into this further, if you want.

Byfield has a whopping two more points at 5 on 5, while being on a PDO bender (both offensively and defensively) and playing on his team's first line. Lafreniere is only on his team's second line and is on the opposite of a PDO bender (both offensively and defensively).

Byfield has worse PP production, if you account for that Byfield has double the amount of PP time, and much better PP line-mates and situations. Byfield plays PP1. Lafreniere has never for more than a game or two in his career to fill-in played PP1.

And what's funny is that if you average out their career per 82 game point totals, they both are virtually at the same number:

Byfield: 36.9
Lafreniere: 36.0

That is despite Lafreniere being in the NHL at a younger age (where it's naturally harder to score) and without the type of prime-time Line 1, PP1 usage at any point that Byfield gets now.

Who is better? I don't know. It's not overly important to me either. Again, I am not criticizing Byfield. Didn't call him a bust. Didn't say he's a lesser caliber player than the season he's having and that he'll regress. However, if Byfield has virtually the same stats (and in some cases worse) than a player who you claim is a depth forward and he has clearly passed, how does that compute?

And it's especially rich from a Kings fan that now you're all high and mighty, ignoring the context of player's stats, because Byfield is getting his big chance with the usage he should be getting, but early on you (rightly) were claiming against arguments in favor of Stuetzle or Raymond that they get better usage, and such simplistic analysis is missing the mark. Hard to respect such a two-faced approach.

 

[unicornpig]

I'm a wimp, and you can't even respond to me directly? Hilarious.

I've been very generous in responding to people getting offended at nothing. It has never been my aim to criticize Byfield, but since you've decided to be completely disrespectful and full-throated attack Lafreniere, we can get into this further, if you want.

Byfield has a whopping two more points at 5 on 5, while being on a PDO bender (both offensively and defensively) and playing on his team's first line. Lafreniere is only on his team's second line and is on the opposite of a PDO bender (both offensively and defensively).

Byfield has worse PP production, if you account for that Byfield has double the amount of PP time, and much better PP line-mates and situations. Byfield plays PP1. Lafreniere has never for more than a game or two in his career to fill-in played PP1.

And what's funny is that if you average out their career per 82 game point totals, they both are virtually at the same number:

Byfield: 36.9
Lafreniere: 36.0

That is despite Lafreniere being in the NHL at a younger age (where it's naturally harder to score) and without the type of prime-time Line 1, PP1 usage at any point that Byfield gets now.

Who is better? I don't know. It's not overly important to me either. Again, I am not criticizing Byfield. Didn't call him a bust. Didn't say he's a lesser caliber player than the season he's having and that he'll regress. However, if Byfield has virtually the same stats (and in some cases worse) than a player who you claim is a depth forward and he has clearly passed, how does that compute?

And it's especially rich from a Kings fan that now you're all high and mighty, ignoring the context of player's stats, because Byfield is getting his big chance with the usage he should be getting, but early on you (rightly) were claiming against arguments in favor of Stuetzle or Raymond that they get better usage, and such simplistic analysis is missing the mark. Hard to respect such a two-faced approach.

How can you write so much and yet have no substance

 

[Jannik Hansen]

Don't let this discussion distract you from the fact that Tim Stutzle was the best player from that draft by far.

 

[JTeller97]

Don't let this discussion distract you from the fact that Tim Stutzle was the best player from that draft by far.

For the time being yes, no question. 5 years from now... I wouldn't be so sure.

 

[Ghetty Green]

Why are rangers fans so worried about by field, they should be more concerned about kakko and laf barely improving in his 4th year

They're still butthurt from 2014