C Jack Hughes - USNTDP (2019 Draft) Part III

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When assessing a player like Hughes, you can't just throw out past years performances. John Tavares had his best statistical season in the OHL when he was 16 years old, and declined slightly from there. While there may be some basis for comparison between Hughes and Keller in the draft year, there is no debate that Hughes had the far superior D -1 year.

The biggest mistake in drafting is picking apart the top talent. These are the guys who are under constant scrutiny, so of course people will find fault eventually. I remember when Kessel started dropping on every list, and all he has done is turn into a sure-fire 500 goal/1000 point scorer with two Stanley Cups.

Anyone who passes on Hughes is making a huge mistake.
 
When assessing a player like Hughes, you can't just throw out past years performances. John Tavares had his best statistical season in the OHL when he was 16 years old, and declined slightly from there. While there may be some basis for comparison between Hughes and Keller in the draft year, there is no debate that Hughes had the far superior D -1 year.

The biggest mistake in drafting is picking apart the top talent. These are the guys who are under constant scrutiny, so of course people will find fault eventually. I remember when Kessel started dropping on every list, and all he has done is turn into a sure-fire 500 goal/1000 point scorer with two Stanley Cups.

Anyone who passes on Hughes is making a huge mistake.
Kessel was questioned for being difficult to work with, and that has been somewhat true throughout his career (which is why a guy with his talent is on to his 3rd NHL organization). Also, two of the guys who passed him, would both go ahead of him in retrospect in Toews and Backstrom.

Prior history matters, but isn't more important than what has most recently happened. Although, I think people are beating this Keller angle into the ground. I love how people are pushing for advanced stats but feel comfortable using estimated time on ice to figure out per 60 stats.

Tavares production dropped a bit, but he was still the best player in the OHL in his draft year and the best player at the World Juniors.
 
Using Keller as the central point of an argument against Hughes is ridiculous for several reasons, and I won't even get into the actual eye test or live assessments.

1. Keller was the focal point of Team USA's offense. That's it. Trent Frederic was the 2C and he spent a lot of time on dzone draws and PK1. Keller had the same linemates for practically the entire seasons -- Joey Anderson on the Right and Kiefer Bellows on the left. If you think line chemistry isn't important, be my guest. Hughes has had every single NTDP winger on his flank at least once this season. Go look at Keller's scoring logs and then look at Hughes's. The majority of Keller's points came within a tighter group. Hughes's production at 5v5 is all over the place. I will bet my life that if Jack played the full season only with Zegras and Caufield or Boldy and Caufield, he'd have 15-20 more points. He's played with Moynihan, Gildon, Judd, etc. Hughes is leading scorer by six points and played six less games than Zegras.

2. Hughes is going to smash Keller's career NTDP marks. He will literally be the greatest scorer in NTDP history with about a month and a half to spare. Keller's NTDP scoring avg was 1.54 in his two seasons. Hughes's is at 1.94 -- a full half point better. It was 1.93 last season, 1.96 through today. And the schedule gets easier. When all is said and done, Hughes (barring injury) should finish with 30-40 more points than Keller in about 10-15 less games. Keller officially played in 123 NTDP games in two seasons. Hughes is at 87, with about 25 or more to go. Literally more points in less games against a tougher NCAA schedule and a WJC that Keller wasn't even invited to.

3. Keller's production in his draft year dropped in the second half by a considerable margin. In his first 31 games, he was on fire with 63 points in 31 games (2.03 p/g). In the second half, he dropped by more than a full half point -- 44 in 31 (1.42). In a 14-game stretch that began in early Feb. 2016 with Five Nations, Keller went 2-7-9. It took a monster U18 worlds to get back on track.

4. Keller is fourth among 2016 draftees in NHL scoring, and he plays for one of the league's worst offenses. He is on pace for his second straight 60 point season and turned 20 six months ago. There is absolutely no reason to think that Keller will not hit 80 or 90 in a season. Why? Here are other eventual 80+ point scorers in their first two NHL seasons:

Kucherov (18 and 65)
Gaudreau (64 and 78)
MacKinnon (63 and 38)
Giroux (27 and 47)
Hall (42 and 53)
Kane (72 and 70)
Scheifele (34 and 49)
Benn (41 and 56)
Thornton (7 and 41)
Tavares (54 and 67)
D. Sedin (34 and 32)
H. Sedin (29 and 36)

So say if Hughes does become Keller. The question should be -- What's the problem if Hughes becomes Clayton Keller?? Is that the worst-case scenario??? You want Hughes to become Clayton Keller, just like you wanted Keller to be Giroux or MacKinnon.
 
Three more points for Hughes. Could have had six or seven as he set up multiple tap-in chances, including posts from Caulfield and I think Warren.

All three points were primary. He set up the tying goal and scored the tie-breaking tally.

Passed Keller for 2nd on NTDP assist mark. Hughes has 119 in 88 games. Keller had 118 in 123.

I think we can officially kill the Keller narrative. At some point, a cherry tree gets all its cherries picked.
 
This isn't true. They've mostly played on different lines. They have recently been put on the same line because Turcotte, who has been injured for most of the season, has returned.

Plus the fact that Appert juggles line combos more than any coach for the simple reason that he can.

There are like 7 or 8 natural centers on the teams and he likes to give each of them time at center.
 
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This isn't true. They've mostly played on different lines. They have recently been put on the same line because Turcotte, who has been injured for most of the season, has returned.
I decided to look up all of the game day starting rosters from this season.

Zegras and Hughes have started on the same line 13 times out of the 28 games Hughes has played so far this season, the earliest being on October 12, 2018.

As of today, Hughes and Zegras have factored in on 19 of the same goals, which is 33.9% of Hughes' scoring. Of those 19 goals, 10 have been primary points and 9 have been secondary assists for Jack; 16 have been primary points and 3 have been secondary assists for Zegras.

Zegras is collecting more primary points than Hughes when both combine for a goal.
Jack Hughes' Scoring Log (Sept. 12, 2018 to Jan. 15, 2019)

13:47
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (power play) (#2 Cam York, #6 Jack Hughes)

17:53
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#2 Cam York (power play) (#6 Jack Hughes, #13 Cole Caufield)

6:22
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#6 Jack Hughes (even strength)

13:13
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (power play) (#9 Matthew Boldy, #6 Jack Hughes)

16:23
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#18 Patrick Moynihan (even strength) (#13 Cole Caufield, #6 Jack Hughes)

10:13
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (power play) (#6 Jack Hughes, #17 John Beecher)

0:11
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#23 Domenick Fensore (even strength) (#6 Jack Hughes, #14 Judd Caulfield)

11:08
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#10 Marshall Warren (even strength) (#11 Trevor Zegras, #6 Jack Hughes)

7:41
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#6 Jack Hughes (even strength) (#11 Trevor Zegras, #10 Marshall Warren)

19:52
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#11 Trevor Zegras (even strength) (#6 Jack Hughes)

2:07
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#14 Judd Caulfield (even strength) (#6 Jack Hughes, #3 Henry Thrun)

19:08
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#14 Judd Caulfield (even strength) (#11 Trevor Zegras, #6 Jack Hughes)

11:41
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#7 Alex Vlasic (even strength) (#11 Trevor Zegras, #6 Jack Hughes)

8:18
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#11 Trevor Zegras (even strength) (#6 Jack Hughes)

18:37
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#11 Trevor Zegras (even strength) (#4 Drew Helleson, #6 Jack Hughes)

8:03
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (even strength) (#6 Jack Hughes, #11 Trevor Zegras)

6:22
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (even strength) (#6 Jack Hughes)

9:35
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (power play) (#11 Trevor Zegras, #6 Jack Hughes)

1:04
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#6 Jack Hughes (even strength) (#2 Cam York, #13 Cole Caufield)

14:08
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (even strength) (#6 Jack Hughes, #3 Henry Thrun)

12:01
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (even strength) (#7 Alex Vlasic, #6 Jack Hughes)

13:40
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#8 Michael Gildon (even strength) (#6 Jack Hughes, #2 Cam York)

4:56
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#6 Jack Hughes (even strength) (#11 Trevor Zegras, #9 Matthew Boldy)

14:29
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#6 Jack Hughes (even strength) (#23 Domenick Fensore, #24 Case McCarthy)

13:42
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (even strength) (#4 Drew Helleson, #6 Jack Hughes)

9:34
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#6 Jack Hughes (even strength) (#23 Domenick Fensore, #16 Robert Mastrosimone)

9:00
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#6 Jack Hughes (even strength) (#24 Case McCarthy, #13 Cole Caufield)

2:17
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#11 Trevor Zegras (empty net) (#6 Jack Hughes)

5:23
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#6 Jack Hughes (even strength) (#11 Trevor Zegras, #13 Cole Caufield)

14:40
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (even strength) (#11 Trevor Zegras, #6 Jack Hughes)

12:14
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (even strength) (#6 Jack Hughes, #10 Marshall Warren)

7:29
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#3 Henry Thrun (power play) (#8 Michael Gildon, #6 Jack Hughes)

10:27
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#11 Trevor Zegras (even strength) (#7 Alex Vlasic, #6 Jack Hughes)

9:47
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (even strength) (#6 Jack Hughes, #11 Trevor Zegras)

12:38
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (even strength) (#6 Jack Hughes, #10 Marshall Warren)

17:10
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#12 Ryder Rolston (even strength) (#6 Jack Hughes, #10 Marshall Warren)

9:30
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#29 Danny Weight (power play) (#6 Jack Hughes, #14 Judd Caulfield)

0:24
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#22 Owen Lindmark (power play) (#6 Jack Hughes, #23 Domenick Fensore)

19:01
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#8 Michael Gildon (power play) (#6 Jack Hughes, #13 Cole Caufield)

14:04
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#11 Trevor Zegras (even strength) (#6 Jack Hughes, #3 Henry Thrun)

7:11
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (even strength) (#6 Jack Hughes, #24 Case McCarthy)

14:36
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#8 Michael Gildon (power play) (#14 Judd Caulfield, #6 Jack Hughes)

4:31
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (even strength) (#21 Sean Farrell, #6 Jack Hughes)

0:36
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#8 Michael Gildon (even strength) (#14 Judd Caulfield, #6 Jack Hughes)

0:23
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (power play) (#24 Case McCarthy, #6 Jack Hughes)

4:10
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (even strength) (#6 Jack Hughes, #8 Michael Gildon)

2:46
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#6 Jack Hughes (even strength) (#10 Marshall Warren)

5:47
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#6 Jack Hughes (even strength) (#10 Marshall Warren, #24 Case McCarthy)

18:15
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#6 Jack Hughes (even strength) (#11 Trevor Zegras)

5:46
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#2 Cam York (even strength) (#6 Jack Hughes, #13 Cole Caufield)

10:43
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (even strength) (#6 Jack Hughes)

9:55
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (power play) (#11 Trevor Zegras, #6 Jack Hughes)

13:23
U.S. National Under-18 Team
#13 Cole Caufield (power play) (#6 Jack Hughes, #11 Trevor Zegras)

Head coach John Wroblewski really likes that duo together; Caulfield has been the other regular on Hughes' line.

January 15: Corey Pronman on Twitter

January 12:


January 8:


- Hughes gone from U18 team in December -

November 23:


November 21: USA Hockey NTDP on Twitter

November 17: USA Hockey NTDP on Twitter

November 9: USA Hockey NTDP on Twitter

October 28: USA Hockey NTDP on Twitter

October 22: USA Hockey NTDP on Twitter

October 20: USA Hockey NTDP on Twitter

October 19: USA Hockey NTDP on Twitter

October 13: USA Hockey NTDP on Twitter

October 12: USA Hockey NTDP on Twitter

This is just to say that Zegras is definitely carrying his weight when the two play together, which is often. The frequency with which they produce on that line seems to be more dependent on Zegras' ability to have a primary impact on goals than Hughes, hence the primary point disparity.

This attests to the style of game that Hughes plays, which is about neutral zone rushes, zone entries and delegating the puck to other players upon entering the offensive zone. This would correlate with secondary assist production -- one such player would break into the offensive zone, make a pass, and then have that player look to make a play deeper in the zone.

It also means that Hughes needs to play with other high-end talent to be productive; he doesn't drive scoring on his own. That is to be expected of a player whose weaknesses include his forechecking and shooting skills.

Hughes scored 3 primary points today, bringing his total up to 37 primary points out of 56 total points -- we'll use the new figure. That's 66.1% of his points that are primary points.

Compare to Keller's 47 primary points out of his 55 points, the figure we used yesterday: that's 85.5% of his points that were primary points up to that point.

I'll use figures from another post on HF -- Nico Hischier. As of the WJC break, he had 42 primary points out of 48 total points: that's 87.5% of his points that were primary up to that point.

I believe that Hughes' ceiling is in the Hischier-Ehlers-Keller tier of point production in the NHL, but comparing his primary point production to those of Hischier and Keller -- both of whom were similar in their primary points percentages -- he is less individually important in his production so far than they were.
The ice time estimates and the visualizations come from prospect stats and consider their USHL games only.

Jack Hughes - Prospect-Stats
Clayton Keller - Prospect-Stats

y8zGeQ9.jpg
 
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Using Keller as the central point of an argument against Hughes is ridiculous for several reasons, and I won't even get into the actual eye test or live assessments.

1. Keller was the focal point of Team USA's offense. That's it. Trent Frederic was the 2C and he spent a lot of time on dzone draws and PK1. Keller had the same linemates for practically the entire seasons -- Joey Anderson on the Right and Kiefer Bellows on the left. If you think line chemistry isn't important, be my guest. Hughes has had every single NTDP winger on his flank at least once this season. Go look at Keller's scoring logs and then look at Hughes's. The majority of Keller's points came within a tighter group. Hughes's production at 5v5 is all over the place. I will bet my life that if Jack played the full season only with Zegras and Caufield or Boldy and Caufield, he'd have 15-20 more points. He's played with Moynihan, Gildon, Judd, etc. Hughes is leading scorer by six points and played six less games than Zegras.

2. Hughes is going to smash Keller's career NTDP marks. He will literally be the greatest scorer in NTDP history with about a month and a half to spare. Keller's NTDP scoring avg was 1.54 in his two seasons. Hughes's is at 1.94 -- a full half point better. It was 1.93 last season, 1.96 through today. And the schedule gets easier. When all is said and done, Hughes (barring injury) should finish with 30-40 more points than Keller in about 10-15 less games. Keller officially played in 123 NTDP games in two seasons. Hughes is at 87, with about 25 or more to go. Literally more points in less games against a tougher NCAA schedule and a WJC that Keller wasn't even invited to.

3. Keller's production in his draft year dropped in the second half by a considerable margin. In his first 31 games, he was on fire with 63 points in 31 games (2.03 p/g). In the second half, he dropped by more than a full half point -- 44 in 31 (1.42). In a 14-game stretch that began in early Feb. 2016 with Five Nations, Keller went 2-7-9. It took a monster U18 worlds to get back on track.

4. Keller is fourth among 2016 draftees in NHL scoring, and he plays for one of the league's worst offenses. He is on pace for his second straight 60 point season and turned 20 six months ago. There is absolutely no reason to think that Keller will not hit 80 or 90 in a season. Why? Here are other eventual 80+ point scorers in their first two NHL seasons:

Kucherov (18 and 65)
Gaudreau (64 and 78)
MacKinnon (63 and 38)
Giroux (27 and 47)
Hall (42 and 53)
Kane (72 and 70)
Scheifele (34 and 49)
Benn (41 and 56)
Thornton (7 and 41)
Tavares (54 and 67)
D. Sedin (34 and 32)
H. Sedin (29 and 36)

So say if Hughes does become Keller. The question should be -- What's the problem if Hughes becomes Clayton Keller?? Is that the worst-case scenario??? You want Hughes to become Clayton Keller, just like you wanted Keller to be Giroux or MacKinnon.
Why is Hughes' D-1 season even a factor in this conversation? It was only ever relevant prior to this season because he was projected to improve upon it -- his trajectory was high.

This season, he has not improved. The only thing separating Hughes' career totals with the USNTDP from some of the others' is that he was more suited for the U18 team than most other players at the same age; however, he is still playing at the same level and has not improved, while other former U18 players matched this level of production at his current age.

Meanwhile, other talents like Auston Matthews, Patrick Kane among others would likely have torn the U18 program to shreds had they stayed an extra year.

Nolan Patrick was the favorite in 2017 because he had 102 points in 72 games as a D-1 player. He did not improve his total as a D+0 player. The D-1 season went out the window when Patrick did not show any improvement; others had caught up.

At Hughes' current age, he is not better than Keller was at the same age.

I'm not saying that Keller is the worst-case scenario at all; that would be a splendid outcome. I think Keller (and Ehlers, points-wise) are closer to the ceiling for Hughes, especially with all of the deficiencies that he possesses. He is a one-dimensional puck rusher. He is limited in what he is capable of as he lacks a shot, is poor at forechecking, is a defensive liability, is easily pushed off of the puck, and can have tunnel vision off the rush. One's doubts about his ability to translate are completely justified.
 
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Why is Hughes' D-1 season even a factor in this conversation? It was only ever relevant prior to this season because he was projected to improve upon it -- his trajectory was high.

This season, he has not improved. The only thing separating Hughes' career totals with the USNTDP with some of the others' is that he was more suited for the U18 team than most other players at the same age; however, he is still playing at the same level and has not improved, while other former U18 players reached this level of production at this age.

Meanwhile, other talents like Auston Matthews, Patrick Kane among others would likely have torn the U18 program to shreds had they stayed an extra year.

Matthews and Kane played two years in the program, just like Hughes. Mathews was moved up from the U17 team to the U18 squad during his first year in the program, just like Hughes. The only difference between the two is that Matthews was a late birthday, so he was not eligible for the NHL Draft immediately upon leaving the NTDP after two seasons (same with Kane).
 
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Matthews and Kane played two years in the program, just like Hughes. Mathews was moved up from the U17 team to the U18 squad during his first year in the program, just like Hughes. The only difference between the two is that Matthews was a late birthday, so he was not eligible for the NHL Draft immediately upon leaving the NTDP after two seasons (same with Kane).
Kane played his D-2 and D-1 seasons with the USNTDP.

Matthews played his D-1 season with the USNTDP.

Neither played their D+0 season with the USNTDP. Kane was in the OHL with 62 goals, 145 points in 58 games (2.5 PPG). Matthews scored 24 goals, 46 points in 36 games with Zurich in the NLA.

These are both greater achievements than maintaining the same D-1 season level of production in one's D+0 year with the USNTDP. They improved.

Hughes has stagnated.
 
Kane played his D-2 and D-1 seasons with the USNTDP.

Matthews played his D-1 season with the USNTDP.

Neither played their D+0 season with the USNTDP. Kane was in the OHL with 62 goals, 145 points in 58 games (2.5 PPG). Matthews scored 24 goals, 46 points in 36 games with Zurich in the NLA.

These are both greater achievements than maintaining the same D-1 level of production in the USNTDP in one's D+0 year.

These "achievements" were based purely on when they were born during the year. Had Matthews been born two days earlier, he would have been on the exact same path as Hughes.
 
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I decided to look up all of the game day starting rosters from this season.

Zegras and Hughes have started on the same line 13 times out of the 28 games Hughes has played so far this season, the earliest being on October 12, 2018.

As of today, Hughes and Zegras have factored in on 19 of the same goals, which is 33.9% of Hughes' scoring. Of those 19 goals, 10 have been primary points and 9 have been secondary assists for Jack; 16 have been primary points and 3 have been secondary assists for Zegras.

Zegras is collecting more primary points than Hughes when both combine for a goal.


Head coach John Wroblewski really likes that duo together; Caulfield has been the other regular on Hughes' line.

January 15: Corey Pronman on Twitter

January 12:


January 8:


- Hughes gone from U18 team in December -

November 23:


November 21: USA Hockey NTDP on Twitter

November 17: USA Hockey NTDP on Twitter

November 9: USA Hockey NTDP on Twitter

October 28: USA Hockey NTDP on Twitter

October 22: USA Hockey NTDP on Twitter

October 20: USA Hockey NTDP on Twitter

October 19: USA Hockey NTDP on Twitter

October 13: USA Hockey NTDP on Twitter

October 12: USA Hockey NTDP on Twitter

This is just to say that Zegras is definitely carrying his weight when the two play together, which is often. The frequency with which they produce on that line seems to be more dependent on Zegras' ability to have a primary impact on goals than Hughes, hence the primary point disparity.

This attests to the style of game that Hughes plays, which is about neutral zone rushes, zone entries and delegating the puck to other players upon entering the offensive zone. This would correlate with secondary assist production -- one such player would break into the offensive zone, make a pass, and then have that player look to make a play deeper in the zone.

It also means that Hughes needs to play with other high-end talent to be productive; he doesn't drive scoring on his own. That is to be expected of a player whose weaknesses include his forechecking and shooting skills.

Hughes scored 3 primary points today, bringing his total up to 37 primary points out of 56 total points -- we'll use the new figure. That's 66.1% of his points that are primary points.

Compare to Keller's 47 primary points out of his 55 points, the figure we used yesterday: that's 85.5% of his points that were primary points up to that point.

I'll use figures from another post on HF -- Nico Hischier. As of the WJC break, he had 42 primary points out of 48 total points: that's 87.5% of his points that were primary up to that point.

I believe that Hughes' ceiling is in the Hischier-Ehlers-Keller tier of point production in the NHL, but comparing his primary point production to those of Hischier and Keller -- both of whom were similar in their primary points percentages -- he is less individually important in his production so far than they were.


y8zGeQ9.jpg


I was the person on this forum thats been hyping up Zegras since before the season when some didn’t consider him a first round prospect, so I don’t need convincing that he’s very good. I don’t really regard what the stats say. I’ve been watching these two players for two years. Hughes is the better hockey player. Hughes is a better possession player who impacts the game more often. Zegras skating and vision are pretty equal to Hughes and his two way game is better, but he’s not as good of a goal scorer, doesn’t have the same level of puck skills, hockey IQ or possession game as Hughes.
 
Ahhh, the primary vs secondary debate....I remember this one well. Matthew Tkachuk was absolutely trashed on these boards for his "secondary" contributions.

It truly feels like an opinion has been derived by a certain poster, and every analysis being done is trying to "prove" that opinion.

It makes for a terrible thread. From the clips last night Hughes had a dominating performance, yet we're in here reading about why he's not good and hasn't improved.

I also just laugh my face off when I read that Hughes isn't agile. L O effin L
 
Ahhh, the primary vs secondary debate....I remember this one well. Matthew Tkachuk was absolutely trashed on these boards for his "secondary" contributions.
You remember so? I'm not sure about such a discussion, but I think Matthew Tkachuk was recognized for participating in some 91% of London's points while he was on the ice. That's pretty significant.

Still, it's pretty well-known primary points translate better, there's shown to be correlation.
 
You remember so? I'm not sure about such a discussion, but I think Matthew Tkachuk was recognized for participating in some 91% of London's points while he was on the ice. That's pretty significant.

Still, it's pretty well-known primary points translate better, there's shown to be correlation.

Tkachuk was criticized by *some* for racking up secondary assists on a very good London team in his draft year. Of course he has been proven to be a line driver in the NHL.
 
You remember so? I'm not sure about such a discussion, but I think Matthew Tkachuk was recognized for participating in some 91% of London's points while he was on the ice. That's pretty significant.

Still, it's pretty well-known primary points translate better, there's shown to be correlation.
I'm not sure it's "known" but there is definitely people who subscribe to it more than others.

I prefer to analyze what I see. There are plenty of "secondary" assists that are better or more important than a primary assist.

Go peruse the Matthew Tkachuk threads in this forum from his draft year. He's 15th in scoring in the NHL this year.
 
Why is Hughes' D-1 season even a factor in this conversation? It was only ever relevant prior to this season because he was projected to improve upon it -- his trajectory was high.

This season, he has not improved. The only thing separating Hughes' career totals with the USNTDP from some of the others' is that he was more suited for the U18 team than most other players at the same age; however, he is still playing at the same level and has not improved, while other former U18 players matched this level of production at his current age.

Meanwhile, other talents like Auston Matthews, Patrick Kane among others would likely have torn the U18 program to shreds had they stayed an extra year.

Nolan Patrick was the favorite in 2017 because he had 102 points in 72 games as a D-1 player. He did not improve his total as a D+0 player. The D-1 season went out the window when Patrick did not show any improvement; others had caught up.

At Hughes' current age, he is not better than Keller was at the same age.

I'm not saying that Keller is the worst-case scenario at all; that would be a splendid outcome. I think Keller (and Ehlers, points-wise) are closer to the ceiling for Hughes, especially with all of the deficiencies that he possesses. He is a one-dimensional puck rusher. He is limited in what he is capable of as he lacks a shot, is poor at forechecking, is a defensive liability, is easily pushed off of the puck, and can have tunnel vision off the rush. One's doubts about his ability to translate are completely justified.


1. Hughes's draft-1 year is totally relevant. Why? Because sans Keller, all the elite players produced by the NTDP -- Matthews, Tkachuk, Kessel, Kane, Eichel -- were late birthdays. So you can only use their draft-1's NTDP seasons as a measuring stick since. Matthews and Hughes's draft-1's were identical -- the two best NTDP seasons in history. The rest didn't come close. There is no reason to think Hughes could not have been an NLA MVP candidate or Hobey Baker winner had he been a late birthday and played his draft year in a tougher league. You are punishing him over a birthdate, which no NHL scout or GM will do.

Hughes was 16 for his entire draft-1 season, as was Keller. Matthews, Eichel, Tkachuk, Kane and Kessel were 17 either to start their final NTDP seasons. Has nothing to do with being "more suited" for the program. It's called having or not having a late birthday.

2. The only thing more ridiculous than asking a player with a 1.93 p/g in his draft-1 year to improve it the following season is actually saying a 2.00 p/g draft-year average is "not improving". By your rationale, if Hughes simply had an above-average NTDP draft-1 season (by NTDP standards) like Keller did, then his explosion in production for this season would be acknowledged. Brilliant. Just brilliant.

3. You ignored Keller's massive drop off in scoring in the second half. Hughes sits at 2.00 p/g through 28 games. You are cherry picking primary points as the basis of your argument. Keller had 23 points in his first 13 USHL games -- 10 coming in two games -- but only 18 in his final 14. Hughes has 22 points in his first 13 USHL games. You wanna argue that Hughes also will have Keller's second-half dip in production, be my guest. All signs points towards Hughes having the superior season by the end of the U18s in April.

4. The bolded:

-- "Lacks a shot" -- He's a playmaking center with an accurate shot. Accurate as in, he forces a goalie into making a tough save. It would be more of a concern if he was a winger. Plus, he's 17. Shot velocity and accuracy improve with age anyway. Giroux had an average shot his draft year. Jarome Iginla and Anze Kopitar were scouted as having a "good shot" -- which is CSB's way of saying it's nothing special. The Sedins had poor shots as teens. Marian Hossa had a poor shot but a nice touch.

All will be Hall of Famers.

--"Poor at forechecking" -- Nobody cares but you. For real. Nobody cares about Hughes's forechecking when he's relentless on the puck in the offensive zone and is a possession fiend. That's all people care about. You are trying to imply a lack of hockey sense or poor effort, and neither are true.

--"Defensive liability" -- Again, nobody cares but you. Steve Yzerman won a Selke. I repeat -- Steve friggin Yzerman won a Selke. Mike friggin Modano was a Selke finalist. Easily two of the most criticized finesse forwards for the first 7 or 8 years of their NHL careers developed into elite two-way centers.

--"Easily pushed off the puck" -- Pat Kane was 5'11/160 for London. Won a Calder the next season. Hughes's edge work is among the best of any pre-draft player in history. Balance will improve with age. A valid concern but a risky one to use as the basis for not drafting him.

--"Tunnel vision off the rush" -- A simple Twitter search debunks this. He's a puck hog, that's it. So was McDavid. So was Crosby. If he's so predictable, than why can't anybody at three levels -- USHL, NCAA and INTL -- stop him? His speed and agility create massive openings for his linemates and back defenders in well off the line.
 
Guys, it is impossible to change a mind that has already been made up. Just saying.

Hughes is great. He's not a unanimous #1 but guys like him don't come around every year. He's shifty, smart and extremely talented. He makes his teammates better.
 
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Ahhh, the primary vs secondary debate....I remember this one well. Matthew Tkachuk was absolutely trashed on these boards for his "secondary" contributions.

It truly feels like an opinion has been derived by a certain poster, and every analysis being done is trying to "prove" that opinion.

It makes for a terrible thread. From the clips last night Hughes had a dominating performance, yet we're in here reading about why he's not good and hasn't improved.

I also just laugh my face off when I read that Hughes isn't agile. L O effin L

Tkachuk was criticized by *some* for racking up secondary assists on a very good London team in his draft year. Of course he has been proven to be a line driver in the NHL.
The big thing with Tkachuk was partly the secondary assists, but it was more he was put on a top line which played with Ryan Rupert the year before, and Marner's production didn't really change (went from a 2 point per game guy to a 2.04 point per game guy), Dvorak's went slightly up but he had an elite season the year before. People were wrong in retrospects, but it wasn't just the secondary assists. Now, its why people wish there were deeper numbers to delve into because Tkachuk probably helped fuel improvement in possession and scoring chances (along with their natural growth).

Tkachuk has played most of his career with Backlund, who has always been a strong possession driving center. Tkachuk is a hell of a player and the best player on his line though, and does almost all the small things right.
 
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1. Hughes's draft-1 year is totally relevant. Why? Because sans Keller, all the elite players produced by the NTDP -- Matthews, Tkachuk, Kessel, Kane, Eichel -- were late birthdays. So you can only use their draft-1's NTDP seasons as a measuring stick since. Matthews and Hughes's draft-1's were identical -- the two best NTDP seasons in history. The rest didn't come close. There is no reason to think Hughes could not have been an NLA MVP candidate or Hobey Baker winner had he been a late birthday and played his draft year in a tougher league. You are punishing him over a birthdate, which no NHL scout or GM will do.

Hughes was 16 for his entire draft-1 season, as was Keller. Matthews, Eichel, Tkachuk, Kane and Kessel were 17 either to start their final NTDP seasons. Has nothing to do with being "more suited" for the program. It's called having or not having a late birthday.

2. The only thing more ridiculous than asking a player with a 1.93 p/g in his draft-1 year to improve it the following season is actually saying a 2.00 p/g draft-year average is "not improving". By your rationale, if Hughes simply had an above-average NTDP draft-1 season (by NTDP standards) like Keller did, then his explosion in production for this season would be acknowledged. Brilliant. Just brilliant.

3. You ignored Keller's massive drop off in scoring in the second half. Hughes sits at 2.00 p/g through 28 games. You are cherry picking primary points as the basis of your argument. Keller had 23 points in his first 13 USHL games -- 10 coming in two games -- but only 18 in his final 14. Hughes has 22 points in his first 13 USHL games. You wanna argue that Hughes also will have Keller's second-half dip in production, be my guest. All signs points towards Hughes having the superior season by the end of the U18s in April.

4. The bolded:

-- "Lacks a shot" -- He's a playmaking center with an accurate shot. Accurate as in, he forces a goalie into making a tough save. It would be more of a concern if he was a winger. Plus, he's 17. Shot velocity and accuracy improve with age anyway. Giroux had an average shot his draft year. Jarome Iginla and Anze Kopitar were scouted as having a "good shot" -- which is CSB's way of saying it's nothing special. The Sedins had poor shots as teens. Marian Hossa had a poor shot but a nice touch.

All will be Hall of Famers.

--"Poor at forechecking" -- Nobody cares but you. For real. Nobody cares about Hughes's forechecking when he's relentless on the puck in the offensive zone and is a possession fiend. That's all people care about. You are trying to imply a lack of hockey sense or poor effort, and neither are true.

--"Defensive liability" -- Again, nobody cares but you. Steve Yzerman won a Selke. I repeat -- Steve friggin Yzerman won a Selke. Mike friggin Modano was a Selke finalist. Easily two of the most criticized finesse forwards for the first 7 or 8 years of their NHL careers developed into elite two-way centers.

--"Easily pushed off the puck" -- Pat Kane was 5'11/160 for London. Won a Calder the next season. Hughes's edge work is among the best of any pre-draft player in history. Balance will improve with age. A valid concern but a risky one to use as the basis for not drafting him.

--"Tunnel vision off the rush" -- A simple Twitter search debunks this. He's a puck hog, that's it. So was McDavid. So was Crosby. If he's so predictable, than why can't anybody at three levels -- USHL, NCAA and INTL -- stop him? His speed and agility create massive openings for his linemates and back defenders in well off the line.
1. If we look at D-1 seasons, what comes to mind is Nail Yakupov's D-1 season in Sarnia where he broke Steven Stamkos' D-1 scoring record, both in goals and points. Yakupov was considered to be a special talent entering his draft season; just as you've compared Hughes to Crosby, McDavid, Matthews and Kane in your latest article, some were calling Yakupov "better than Bure" and "the hottest thing" from Russia since Ovechkin.

D-1 seasons mean less than D+0 seasons. Not every player in one's D-1 is as developed as they are in the D+0 year, and it becomes even clearer in the D+1 year who the best prospects are in a draft class.

Sarnia Sting’s Nail Yakupov: scouts offer takes on NHL draft’s top-ranked prospect
Much like Steven Stamkos in 2008, John Tavares in 2009, and Ryan Nugent-Hopkins last year — Sarnia Sting star Nail Yakupov has apparently separated himself from the pack as the clear-cut top talent in the NHL's draft class of 2012.

Yakupov's impeccable offensive instincts and abilities are what make him great. This elite skill was evident in his first season in the Ontario Hockey League. He bested Stamkos' 92-point rookie season record in Sarnia with 49 goals and 101 points throughout 65 games. He also turned heads at the IIHF world under-18 championship, posting an outstanding six goals and 13 points in seven games for the Russians.
https://thehockeywriters.com/nail-yakupov-the-stinging-star/
Nail Yakupov: The Stinging Star
By David OConnor October 3rd, 2011

Size is not an issue for him, as he can use his tremendous skill level to get around larger opponents very easily, even though he is only 5’10 and 175 pounds. This CHL Rookie of the Year has loads of potential, and will surely be an NHL star very soon. An extremely skilled winger, Yakupov is the hottest thing to come out of Russia since Alex Ovechkin, and is already drawing comparisons to the superstar.
One of Yakupov’s idols growing up was another speedy Russian by the name of Pavel Bure. Nail has said that Bure is someone who he tries to pattern his game after, but the speed and goal-scoring ability of Yakupov might just be even better than Bure’s.
Are you actually suggesting that, if Hughes was eight months older, he would have matched Matthews' point totals this year in the NLA?

2. If Hughes had only recorded Keller's D-1 numbers last year, he would be exactly where Keller was at this point in 2016. You ranked Keller 11tth on your January 2016 list, so a player with Keller's D-1 and D+0 seasons up to this point would have that much value on your draft list. This "explosion" in scoring was only good enough for Keller to be 11th on your list.

The Draft Analyst | The Draft Analyst’s Rankings: The top 250 prospects for the 2016 NHL Draft (January)

If his D-1 season were the same as Keller's, logically, the increase in production would not be any more significant than that of Keller's points increase.

For the record, Keller was even younger at this point in 2016 than Hughes is now: Keller has a July birth date; Hughes has a May birth date.

3. As stated above, Keller's first half of the 2015-16 season was only good enough for 11th on your 2016 list, the decrease in production resulted in a drop of two spots on your March 2016 list.

The Draft Analyst | The Draft Analyst’s Rankings: The top 250 prospects for the 2016 NHL Draft (March)

If he had continued to score at the same rate all season, would you really have vaulted him all the way to Matthews' tier on your final list?

4. Not every player in the NHL improves in every aspect. If they did, there would be no need for scouting and no need to identify weaknesses. If deficiencies in a player were not a concern, there would never be any concerns about drafting any player.

You amusingly mention Henrik Sedin, who had a terrible shot by NHL standards. Canucks fans know this. We even have his hardest shot measurements from 2008: on two attempts, he measured 88.5 and 86.3 mph.

The Sedins were two of the most intelligent cycle players ever. Henrik only scored 20+ goals twice in his career, while Daniel scored most of his goals via puck movement and set plays with his brother.



Another pure playmaker with a sub-NHL shot was Scott Gomez.

This is the exact play that Hughes tried a couple of times at the WJC; it's a "highlight reel" play for him:



It's not a highlight in the NHL.

There are many NHL players right now whose shots are average at best, and even above-average shooters are not always elite scorers. There are a lot of NHL speedsters who aren't very good at shooting the puck. Some great skaters don't play in the NHL partly because they can't shoot the puck -- Alex Biega, for example. Biega has other deficiencies that hinder him too, but he is one of the better-skating Canucks of the last few years. He can get the puck past the offensive blue line, but is probably better served dumping it into the corner than laying one of his floaters into the goaltender's crest.

I can't fathom someone shrugging off poor forechecking, defensive issues, a tendency to lose puck battles, and a rush-centric, individualistic game as not being of any consequence.

Other scouts were aware of some of these issues in Nail Yakupov in 2012; would you have been in the other camp shrugging it off and marketing him as the next Bure?

Sarnia Sting’s Nail Yakupov: scouts offer takes on NHL draft’s top-ranked prospect
Scout's take: "Yakupov's skating is unrivaled in this year's draft," says Matt Moran of OHL Central Scouting. "He is blessed with a powerful stride and incredible four-way mobility that makes him a threat to score every time he touches the puck. Nail is so explosive and gets to top speed in the blink of an eye. On the offensive side of the blueline he consistently brings fans to the edge of their seats. He is a pure trigger man and is certainly NHL ready in that regard, which is something that can't be said for many forwards in this draft."

High expectations and lofty comparisons go hand in hand with being this good this fast. Yakupov has been touted as the NHL's next big star and franchise player, drawing some comparisons to the likes of New Jersey Devils sniper Ilya Kovalchuk and Washington Capitals star Alexander Ovechkin.
Scout's take: "In terms of franchise players, names like Crosby, Ovechkin and (Columbus Blue Jackets') Rick Nash come to mind, and I am not sure if Nail's game is as complete as those players in their respective draft years," says Moran. "Although he showed at the world junior this year he can distribute and use his teammates effectively, he is certainly a one-dimensional player right now."

"While his defensive play will no doubt develop with NHL coaching and more experience, I am not sure if he has a complete enough game right now. While he will no doubt be a first line talent for a long time in the NHL, I think to be a bona fide superstar Nail will need to focus on improving his play both away from the puck and in his own end."
 
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You’re analysis is terrible and I actually hope that you never post again. Hughes to Patrick is a horrible comparison. Arguing that Matthews, Kane, Eichel, etc. would’ve further improved on their point totals is speculation and not a real arguement. I think everyone would’ve said Hughes would improve on his totals as well this year. That is not true, so what makes it a for-gone conclusion that the others would. Not to mention Matthews and Kane were ineligible. You can’t just stat-watch and expect to have a deep understanding of the player.
 
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