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C Brad Lambert - HIFK U20, Jr. A SM-liiga (2022 Draft)

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Daximus said:
Per Capita Ontario alone out produces both Finland and Sweden in terms of NHL talent.
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... Saying "per capita" and "Ontario alone" is pretty odd to me. It makes it sound like "even Ontario accomplishes that", which sounds like a false premise to me. After all, Ontario is where hockey's most popular in Canada. That gives "Ontario alone" an advantage in a "per capita" comparison to Finland's entire population. We could consider it fairer if we used the area of Finland where hockey's most popular.

In any case, the reality is that the amount of absolute top tier talent has actually been higher coming out of Finland than Ontario in recent years - This in spite of the fact that Ontario has thrice the people.
 
ijuka said:
... Saying "per capita" and "Ontario alone" is pretty odd to me. It makes it sound like "even Ontario accomplishes that", which sounds like a false premise to me. After all, Ontario is where hockey's most popular in Canada. That gives "Ontario alone" an advantage in a "per capita" comparison to Finland's entire population. We could consider it fairer if we used the area of Finland where hockey's most popular.

In any case, the reality is that the amount of absolute top tier talent has actually been higher coming out of Finland than Ontario in recent years - This in spite of the fact that Ontario has thrice the people.
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Since about the 2016 draft, so 3 years. But Ontario has a track record Finland will never touch.

So let me get this straight. Ontario doesn't count because it's "where hockey is most popular". Finland is about on par with British Columbia as a province. Produces a lot of great talent and a high end guy here and there. But no one really on par with what Ontario produces.

Trust me you don't want to get into a discussion about Gretzky, McDavid, Francis, Esposito, Lindros, Hawerchuk, Hull, Potvin, Robinson, Dryden being better than pretty much anyone Finland has produced.
Finland will never ever touch that resume. They produce some high end talent but not at the volume or peak that Ontario does.
 
Daximus said:
Since about the 2016 draft, so 3 years. But Ontario has a track record Finland will never touch.

So let me get this straight. Ontario doesn't count because it's "where hockey is most popular". Finland is about on par with British Columbia as a province. Produces a lot of great talent and a high end guy here and there. But no one really on par with what Ontario produces.

Trust me you don't want to get into a discussion about Gretzky, McDavid, Francis, Esposito, Lindros, Hawerchuk, Hull, Potvin, Robinson, Dryden being better than pretty much anyone Finland has produced.
Finland will never ever touch that resume. They produce some high end talent but not at the volume or peak that Ontario does.
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Finland is getting now top 3 picks every year :)
 
Daximus said:
So let me get this straight. Ontario doesn't count because it's "where hockey is most popular". Finland is about on par with British Columbia as a province. Produces a lot of great talent and a high end guy here and there. But no one really on par with what Ontario produces.
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My problem was using "per capita" as some argument. I hope you realize that that means that Ontario needs to provide 3 times as many top NHL players. Indeed, since 2016 it's not even close, and doesn't look like it'll become any closer in the future drafts. Especially considering that Ontario would require almost 3 times as many players. Finland's winning a straight 1:1 comparison, even.
 
Salmonsnake said:
Finland is getting now top 3 picks every year :)
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Yeah since about 2016. And they will likely have another one this year. But it's more about long term outlook. We've had a rough couple of years here but I wouldn't get to comfortable with that. We have plenty of talent on the horizon and definitely a higher volume still than anyone else is producing by a lot.
 
ijuka said:
My problem was using "per capita" as some argument. I hope you realize that that means that Ontario needs to provide 3 times as many top NHL players. Indeed, since 2016 it's not even close, and doesn't look like it'll become any closer in the future drafts. Especially considering that Ontario would require almost 3 times as many players. Finland's winning a straight 1:1 comparison, even.
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Wings5 said Finland produces more per capita. I was replying to his statement I didn't introduce the word to the discussion. But if you look into it there are currently 48 Finnish hockey players that have played at least 1 game recently in the NHL. Contrast that with 161 players from Ontario and you can easily see it's actually well over 3 times the players.

You guys have done this for 3 years. We've been producing top talent for f***ing decades. Plus you look on the Horizon and we have guys like Lafreniere, Wright, Savoie, Bedard. Canada was sunk for 3 years but don't get to comfortable in thinking you have us beat because I promise you we aren't done producing the worlds most elite players anytime soon. :nod:
 
Daximus said:
Wings5 said Finland produces more per capita. I was replying to his statement I didn't introduce the word to the discussion. But if you look into it there are currently 48 Finnish hockey players that have played at least 1 game recently in the NHL. Contrast that with 161 players from Ontario and you can easily see it's actually well over 3 times the players.

You guys have done this for 3 years. We've been producing top talent for ****ing decades. Plus you look on the Horizon and we have guys like Lafreniere, Wright, Savoie, Bedard. Canada was sunk for 3 years but don't get to comfortable in thinking you have us beat because I promise you we aren't done producing the worlds most elite players anytime soon. :nod:
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This argument actually includes Lambert as what we are saying is development wise with the recent improvements in Finland's development system, it would not be any worse and perhaps would be better for him to develop in Finland. We are not talking about the past where yes Canada/Ontario has outproduced Finland in NHL talent mostly due to size. It's the fact that you need to compare a nation to a bigger province shows how well they are doing. Since Barkov there has almost been an elite prospect every year or every other year, Rantanen, Laine, Heiskanen and alot of solid players plus more to come.
 
wings5 said:
This argument actually includes Lambert as what we are saying is development wise with the recent improvements in Finland's development system, it would not be any worse and perhaps would be better for him to develop in Finland. We are not talking about the past where yes Canada/Ontario has outproduced Finland in NHL talent mostly due to size. It's the fact that you need to compare a nation to a bigger province shows how well they are doing. Since Barkov there has almost been an elite prospect every year or every other year, Rantanen, Laine, Heiskanen and alot of solid players plus more to come.
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If I was Canadian I would be worried about USA and Finland beating them :D
 
Why are people arguing about what countries develop the best/most nhl caliber players. Seems like a useless argument.
 
Mercedes Benn said:
I am a Canadian and I'm not worried about either of those countries. For best on best Canada's team is still FAR better than both countries.
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No country is far better than the others best on best for mens hockey. If talking about youth hockey your claim has even less merit.
 
wings5 said:
No country is far better than the others best on best for mens hockey. If talking about youth hockey your claim has even less merit.
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Im talking NHL'ers - evidenced by the way Canada dominated the last two big tournaments featuring NHL players - the 2014 Olympics and 2016 World cup.
 
Little something on Lambert himself instead of arguing which country is the best place to develop:

A game report on the national team exhibition game vs Sweden from today where he scored 1G, 1A.
 
ijuka said:
... Saying "per capita" and "Ontario alone" is pretty odd to me. It makes it sound like "even Ontario accomplishes that", which sounds like a false premise to me. After all, Ontario is where hockey's most popular in Canada. That gives "Ontario alone" an advantage in a "per capita" comparison to Finland's entire population. We could consider it fairer if we used the area of Finland where hockey's most popular.

In any case, the reality is that the amount of absolute top tier talent has actually been higher coming out of Finland than Ontario in recent years - This in spite of the fact that Ontario has thrice the people.
Click to expand...
Hockey isn't anymore popular in Ontario then most other provinces, probably less then others actually.Also, the thrice the population argument is very misleading as Ontario has a HUGE immigrant population where love and involvement with hockey is lukewarm at best.

Still, I would say at the moment Finland probably is outproducing Ontario per capita and in top end, whether that remains long term remains to be seen, that stuff can change pretty quickly and it is only very, very recently that Finland has been doing that.

Guaranteeing this is the way it will be forever going forward would be quite the pronouncement.
 
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wings5 said:
We are everywhere because we have far more players, also don't think the bolded part makes sense. Ontario alone has over 254, 000 registered hockey players . The whole country of Finland has a bit over 73, 000 which even if unreported would not touch the Ontario numbers. This would mean to be really fair ,you'd have to compare Finland to one of the Canadian provinces with similar amount of registered players. Even against provinces with far more players, Finland stacks up well with any province with perhaps a slight edge to Ontario who have far more registered players.
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There is no question that right now Finland is doing very,very well for a country with it's population.

Outstanding really, impressive stuff.
 
FinPanda said:
Because he has lived most of his life in Finland and was born there? His mother is Finnish.
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I guess he has made his choice for which national team he wants to play for? At what age is that decided , do you know? Like if he does play for team Finland at U18 , does that kind of lock him for team Finland for good?
 
StiffSquid said:
I guess he has made his choice for which national team he wants to play for? At what age is that decided , do you know? Like if he does play for team Finland at U18 , does that kind of lock him for team Finland for good?
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When he has played in IIHF tournament, he is locked for one team until he plays 4 years in another country or something.

He participated the Pohjola camp where there is this thing called "Leijona-vala" (lionvow). The U15 players promise to proudly carry the Leijonajersey (Finnish national team jersey) and they say some other things too. So it would be awful to change for Canada later. But at this point, he is not locked, no.
 
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FinPanda said:
When he has played in IIHF tournament, he is locked for one team until he plays 4 years in another country or something.

He participated the Pohjola camp where there is this thing called "Leijona-vala" (lionvow). The U15 players promise to proudly carry the Leijonajersey (Finnish national team jersey) and they say some other things too. So it would be awful to change for Canada later. But at this point, he is not locked, no.
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I think that is at the very max as engaging as a wedding vow...

Btw. not trying to derail this back to the ontario vs finland debate but just have to pick up the "40 finnish players in the NHL vs 160 players from Ontario" to the guys who made this argument, you dont think that is mainly becose of the fact that, you know, the NHL is played in NA, an all the minor leagues are based there? If the NHL based in Europe most of the 3rd and 4th liners would be european.
 
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