Busting The Patrick Roy Myth

[Stephen]

There is no way you actually believe this

There's no way to have a serious discussion about the relative abilities of the Canadiens in 1986 and 1993 to other Stanley Cup champions if you won't actually compare the teams.

 

[Stephen]

1995 Devils that ended the season were a much better team than either of Roy's Cup winning teams. They were bascially the same team as the 1994 team (minus their scoring line centers), a team that was second best in the league. They started the season in a slump because Scott Stevens was playing poorly because of a contract dispute. By the playoffs, they had a #1 center acquired at the deadline and a Stevens with a new attitude. That team would have been much higher than a 5th seed if the season was 82 games long, not 48.


IMO, only Tampa Bay is debatable, but their offense blows Montreal's out of the water.

It's probably very close. Lemieux, Richer, Broten and MacLean were inferior to Damphousse, Muller and Bellows in Montreal in 1993, Guerin was not yet the Guerin he would become. The defense was better. Stevens was in a different class than anyone in Montreal, and they had a young Niedermayer, but Montreal also had young guys like Leclair, Schneider, Desjardins sprinkled throughout the lineup who hadn't reached their primes.

New Jersey had a host of grinders who were pretty good players like McKay, Driver, Holik, but Montreal also had Keane, Odelein, Carbonneau etc. who were fixtures on later contenders in the 1990s.

Tampa Bay was actually a pretty good team, but they get downrated because they weren't kept intact after the lockout, so they have a fluke vibe to them.

 

[PhillyBluesFan]

I showed that he got poor goal support for a Cup Winner so what you said was incorrect.

And you do realize that we can't compare them to Montreal's opponents during their Cup runs because if they don't score well in the playoffs, that would be because they were trying to score against Roy. So that would prove nothing and would in fact make Roy look better, which would go against your "agenda."

Anyways, please continue. You're trying very hard to antagonize people (which I suspect is your real goal) and your efforts are entertaining.

Comparing the scoring to teams in different years is meaningless. The Habs were 9th in goal scoring during the 93 regular season and 6th in 1986.

I also have yet to hear of a goalie that had more protection than Roy had in 86 with Robinson, Chelios, Carbonneau and Gainey.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Comparing the scoring to teams in different years is meaningless. The Habs were 9th in goal scoring during the 93 regular season and 6th in 1986.

I also have yet to hear of a goalie that had more protection than Roy had in 86 with Robinson, Chelios, Carbonneau and Gainey.

You mean other than Hasek in '02 with Lidstrom, Yzerman, Fedorov, Datsyuk, Chelios and Draper?

 

[Stephen]

You mean other than Hasek in '02 with Lidstrom, Yzerman, Fedorov, Datsyuk, Chelios and Draper?

Or in 1997 and 1998 with Lidstrom, Yzerman, Fedorov, Konstantinov, Fetisov, Rouse?

Or Brodeur with Niedermayer, Stevens, Holik, McKay, Driver, Jacques Lemaire's brain, Broten etc in 1995 alone?

 

[PhillyBluesFan]

There's no way to have a serious discussion about the relative abilities of the Canadiens in 1986 and 1993 to other Stanley Cup champions if you won't actually compare the teams.

Ok I'll take:
Chelios
Robinson
Naslund
Lemiuex
Smith
Carbonneau
Gainey

over 89 Flames, 90 Oilers, 92 Pens(post Coffey), 94 Rangers, 95 Devils, 96 Avs, 99 Stars, and 04 Lightning.

 

[PhillyBluesFan]

Or in 1997 and 1998 with Lidstrom, Yzerman, Fedorov, Konstantinov, Fetisov, Rouse?

Or Brodeur with Niedermayer, Stevens, Holik, McKay, Driver, Jacques Lemaire's brain, Broten etc in 1995 alone?

None of those are as good as what Roy had.

 

[Killion]

Pretty sure that's Doug Soetaert...

... isnt that just wild. I have no recollection whatsoever of Soetaert having played for the Habs.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

None of those are as good as what Roy had.

To quote you earlier in the thread, "There is no way you actually believe this".

 

[Stephen]

I guess the "Myth" wasn't Busted.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

How many of Robinson, Chelios, Gainey, and Carbonneau were in their primes in 1986? The fact that you keep name dropping Chelios after it was pointed out to you that he was a season removed from being a rookie in 1986 makes it seem like you aren't interested in having an honest conversation

Chelios received a few postseason All Star votes in 1985, but didn't receive any again until 1988. And he didn't receive a single vote for the Norris until 1988 and not a single first place vote until 1989, when he actually won.

 

[PhillyBluesFan]

How many of Robinson, Chelios, Gainey, and Carbonneau were in their primes in 1986? The fact that you keep name dropping Chelios after it was pointed out to you that he was a season removed from being a rookie in 1986 makes it seem like you aren't interested in having an honest conversation

Chelios received a few postseason All Star votes in 1985, but didn't receive any again until 1988. And he didn't receive a single vote for the Norris until 1988 and not a single first place vote until 1989, when he actually won.

Just because it took a while for Chelios and Carbonneau to get recognized doesn't mean they weren't already great. This is the case with just about all players who don't put up gaudy point totals. They were both in their mid 20's which is when players typically enter their prime.

Robinson clearly wasn't in his prime playing like a top 10 defensemen of all time but he was still one of elite defensemen that year. Gainey was probable slightly past his prime but still one of the elite two way forwards.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Just because it took a while for Chelios and Carbonneau to get recognized doesn't mean they weren't already great. This is the case with just about all players who don't put up gaudy point totals. They were both in their mid 20's which is when players typically enter their prime.

Robinson clearly wasn't in his prime playing like a top 10 defensemen of all time but he was still one of elite defensemen that year. Gainey was probable slightly past his prime but still one of the elite two way forwards.

So are you here to have a discussion, or to prosthelytize? You don't seem to care what anyone else has to say.

 

[Bexlyspeed]

... thanks Rhiessan! Now I remember. Old school
trapper with cheater & pads, plain mask but for the decal.

btw, re-call who his backup was that year?

My memory says it was brian hayward? but that doesnt look like him in that video

 

[Bear of Bad News]

My memory says it was brian hayward? but that doesnt look like him in that video

Hayward was traded from Winnipeg (for Penney) in the 1986 offseason.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

My memory says it was brian hayward? but that doesnt look like him in that video

Hayward joined the Habs in 87. Soetart was the backup in the playoffs in 86. The Habs went with a three goalie rotation in 86 with Roy, Soetart and Penney with Roy claiming the #1 spot in the 2nd half of the season. Soetart actually was the best goalie on the Habs that season until he suffered an injury.

 

[Zil]

Ok I'll take:
Chelios
Robinson
Naslund
Lemiuex
Smith
Carbonneau
Gainey

over 89 Flames, 90 Oilers, 92 Pens(post Coffey), 94 Rangers, 95 Devils, 96 Avs, 99 Stars, and 04 Lightning.

If that is your opinion, then there's no point reasoning with you. Most of those teams had vastly superior rosters than the 86 Canadiens and all them are at the very least on par.

It's like you're completely ignorant of era. Chelios of 86 was not Chelios of 89 and beyond. Larry Robinson of 86 had nice point totals, but this was not the Larry Robinson of the 70s. Naslund had his best season in 86, but still only finished eighth in scoring and that was his only top 10 finish. He was not a superstar. Lemieux, Smith, Carbonneau, and Gainey were nice secondary players. How does that roster, minus Roy stack up against:

89 Flames were completely stacked
Gilmour, Nieuwendyk, MacInnis, Loob, Mullen, McCrimmon, Vernon

90 Oilers were much better than the Canadiens minus Roy
Messier, Kurri, Anderson, Lowe, Tikkanen, Ranford in his big year, Simpson, plus young guys Beukeboom, Graves, Gelinas, etc

92 Penguins were stacked
Lemieux, Francis, Jagr, Mullen, Stevens, Barrasso, Murphy

94 Rangers were stacked
Messier, Leetch, Zubov, Richter, Graves, Kovalev, Tikkanen, Larmer, Beukeboom, Lowe

95 Devils were at very least comparable to the 86 Canadiens with Roy
Brodeur, Stevens, Niedermayer, Rolston, Guerin, Lemieux, Daneyko

96 Avalanche were stacked
Sakic, Forsberg, Roy, Foote, Ozolinsh, Deadmarsh, Lemieux

99 Stars were quite good
Modana, Nieuwendyk, Hull, Zubov, Belfour, Hatcher, Lehtinen,

04 Lightning were comparable and vastly superior offensively
St. Louis, Richards, Lecavalier, Boyle, Khabibulin

I don't see how you even make an argument for the 86 Canadiens against any of these teams other than the Lightning.

 

[Bexlyspeed]

Hayward joined the Habs in 87. Soetart was the backup in the playoffs in 86. The Habs went with a three goalie rotation in 86 with Roy, Soetart and Penney with Roy claiming the #1 spot in the 2nd half of the season. Soetart actually was the best goalie on the Habs that season until he suffered an injury.

thanks guys, I'm turning 40 in 2 weeks and it looks like the memory is not what it used to be

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Why do Hockey fans still believe the myth that Roy won with undermanned teams?

The 86 Habs were ridiculously talented with:
2 HOF defensemen(Chelios and Robinson)
3 great forwards(Lemiuex, Naslund and Smith)
2 of the greatest defensive forwards ever(Gainey and Carbonneau)

and on top of that Roy lucked out and didn't have to play a single division winner in the playoffs

Not repeating(or at least getting back to the Cup Finals) in 87 should of been considered a travesty. Roy got lit up like a Christmas tree against the Flyers in the playoffs.

The 93 Habs probable had the easiest road to the Cup in NHL history beating:
104 point Nords
86 point Sabres
87 point Isles
88 point Kings

Roy also got great goal support

The 96 Avs The most glaringly stupid of all the "Roy carried them on his back" narratives.

The 96 Avs were the highest scoring Stanley cup winner of the last 20 seasons.

The 01 Avs do I even have to go in to this? They were basically an all star team.

In conclusion we can say not only were none of the championship teams Roy played on were undermanned but they were so great that they probable could of won without a HOF caliber goalie. Roy also blew it on another team that should of at least played for a Stanley Cup(87 Habs)

It's pretty telling that in listing the three best forwards on the team, a rookie Claude Lemieux is amongst them, and this is supposed to help your case apparently. Or...I'm sorry....did you think that Lemieux was actually Mario?

 

[Killion]

Soetart actually was the best goalie on the Habs that season until he suffered an injury.

... huh. who knew? I wasnt even on this Continent in 86. Had no idea he'd ever played for the Habz. Penney I remember, not Soetart.

 

[green lantern]

even Roy's lone cup without a conn smythe in 1996; they took out the record breaking red wings. In the final game Roy stopped over 60 shots in a shutout to win the cup. Show me a granny who can do that?

 

[Stephen]

Just because it took a while for Chelios and Carbonneau to get recognized doesn't mean they weren't already great. This is the case with just about all players who don't put up gaudy point totals. They were both in their mid 20's which is when players typically enter their prime.

I think the way you resort to platitudes here indicates that you actually don't know what kind of players Chelios and Carbonneau were at this point in their careers.

Robinson clearly wasn't in his prime playing like a top 10 defensemen of all time but he was still one of elite defensemen that year. Gainey was probable slightly past his prime but still one of the elite two way forwards.

Curious comment about Robinson, who had his second best statistical year ever that season and was on the Second All Star team.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Hmmmm.....naw, others have covered it quite nicely

 

[ThisYearsModel]

The Avalanche team of 1996 played a very exciting brand of hockey. It was also wide-open, and without Roy they do not win that cup. Stephane Fiset would not have gotten it done. Roy was spectacular in that season and playoffs. The 2001 team was defensive, and Roy did OT need to be as good. Still, the years in-between when they lost out in the playoffs, Roy committed some epic gaffes that helped them fail. I was of the opinion that he was nothing but the product of a defensive system in Montreal until he came to Colorado. Seeing him live for 60 games that year convinced me that he was an exclellent goaltender.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Not repeating(or at least getting back to the Cup Finals) in 87 should of been considered a travesty.

The 1987 Canadiens finished 5th in the NHL in the regular season (fewest goals against, but also the 3rd fewest goals for). Seeing the 5th best team in the regular season lose in the conference finals is by no means a "travesty".

Roy got lit up like a Christmas tree against the Flyers in the playoffs.

Highly misleading. You fail to mention that Roy only played one game against the Flyers in 1987 (Hayward started all but one game that series). Yes, Roy played poorly, but it was just one game. Also worth mentioning that Roy's sole game against the Flyers was his first game in 20 days.

Roy also got great goal support

The 1993 Canadiens had essentially average goal support. In the playoffs, the Canadiens scored 3.30 goals per game. That spring, the sixteen playoff teams scored an average of 3.42 goals per game (weighted average). The Canadiens ranked 8th out of 16 in goals per game, and 5th out of the eight teams who made it past the first round.

The 93 Habs probable had the easiest road to the Cup in NHL history beating:
104 point Nords
86 point Sabres
87 point Isles
88 point Kings

Easier than the 1981 New York Islanders who beat Toronto (71 points), Edmonton (74 points), Rangers (74 points) and Minnesota (87 points)? Those four were the 9th, 13th, 14th and 16th best teams in a 21 team league.

How many of Robinson, Chelios, Gainey, and Carbonneau were in their primes in 1986?

It's obvious that none of those players were in their primes in 1986. Still, in fairness to PBF, Carbonneau and Gainey finished 3rd and 6th in Selke voting respectively in 1986. Although Selke voting is flawed, I think it shows that both players were among the best defensive forwards in the league that year.