Burke out - Good or Bad?

[Leafidelity]

The very vocal minority who have been bashing Burke for years are still bashing Burke. They're content for a moment, because they believe that everything will magically change all of a sudden.

I would put large sums of money on the fact that almost all of them will be complaining about Nonis in a couple months.

 

[Mess]

I would put large sums of money on the fact that almost all of them will be complaining about Nonis in a couple months.

For those fans where the team results actually matter, and want a winning team again, will place the same level of accountability on the new GM as the last one.

If he makes bad trades or UFA signings and the team struggles, Nonis is not going to be immune from future criticism, if he doesn't perform.

 

[Leafidelity]

For those fans where the team results actually matter, and want a winning team again, will place the same level of accountability on the new GM as the last one.

If he makes bad trades or UFA signings and the team struggles, Nonis is not going to be immune from future criticism, if he doesn't perform.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. I expect many will demand a drinking horse or nothing - just like last time.

 

[hotpaws]

The very vocal minority who have been bashing Burke for years are still bashing Burke. They're content for a moment, because they believe that everything will magically change all of a sudden.

Who ever said it would magically change ?

After 4 years the team still finished in the lottery and what's worse is he still has a prospect pool rated in the bottom half of the league .

I guess that may spell success to some fans but it doesn't for me .

 

[hotpaws]

I would put large sums of money on the fact that almost all of them will be complaining about Nonis in a couple months.

I'll judge Nonis on the moves he makes just like i did for Burke . Burke was a failure but i have higher hopes for Nonis .

 

[Mess]

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. I expect many will demand a drinking horse or nothing - just like last time.

Any GMs ultimate job responsibility in his job description is to build a winning team, and why he was hired.

Has that changed or is it different in Toronto?

 

[Leafidelity]

Any GMs ultimate job responsibility in his job description is to build a winning team, and why he was hired.

Has that changed or is it different in Toronto?

Only in Toronto does the timeframe have to be in short order. 9 GMs in 24 years shows that quite clearly.

29 franchises a year don't have a winning team. Should Ken Holland be fired because he hasn't produced a winner since '08?

 

[Cor]

Any GMs ultimate job responsibility in his job description is to build a winning team, and why he was hired.

Has that changed or is it different in Toronto?

That is the goal everywhere.

I think people are upset because Burke only had 3 1/2 years to clean up the disgraceful roster JFJ left behind, and turn it into a contender, which just can't happen.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

That is the goal everywhere.

I think people are upset because Burke only had 3 1/2 years to clean up the disgraceful roster JFJ left behind, and turn it into a contender, which just can't happen.

If the team Burke inherited was such a "disgraceful roster", shouldn't it be relatively easy for Burke to show some improvement? It's been almost 4 years for heavens sake...

We don't score more goals, don't prevent more goals, don't win more games, have lower rated prospects, and have a Marlies team with a worse overall record (albeit winning one more game in the playoffs).

If you're building from nothing, shouldn't it have been pretty easy to show some sort of improvement in almost 4 years?

 

[legendinblue]

I'm pretty indifferent tbh.

 

[Mess]

Only in Toronto does the timeframe have to be in short order. 9 GMs in 24 years shows that quite clearly.

29 franchises a year don't have a winning team. Should Ken Holland be fired because he hasn't produced a winner since '08?

Ken Holland's Red Wings haven't missed the playoffs in over 20 years and have won 4 Stanley Cups (1997,1998, 2002 & 2008) under his direction as GM. In fact he is the most successful NHL GM currently employed.

If that is the brush you want to use to judge GM performance on as a benchmark than Leaf Nation would be delighted with his results, and can only dream of having Detroit's level of success.

If your standards for success are that high that no Cup in 4 years brings into question the job performance of Holland, than surely 4 non playoff, bottom 10 finishes by Burke in comparison should help explain his dismissal.

 

[egd27]

You should really do your own research if you're trying to refute something. You can't ask your opponent to make your case for you while debating.

How does one "research" something that hasn't happened? I could cite numerous examples of GM's that inherited bad teams and took more than four years to turn them around, but that is not the argument.

NYR ? No
NJD? No
LA? No
CBJ? No
NYI? No
EDM? No
etc.

Where are all these GM's that turned bad teams around in four years or less?

What's the point?
You'll just use rhetoric and spin to claim that the leafs were a worse team four years ago.

Burke "rebuilt" this team for almost four years.
The team Burke inherited finished higher in the standings, had higher rated prospects (according to professional nhl scouts), and had a marlies team that were substantially better in the regular season (albeit winning one less game in the playoffs).

After four years, shouldn't SOMETHING have improved?

I'm am not asserting that Burke's tenure was a success. It wasn't. I'm asking the OP to defend his argument that other GM's have turned bad teams around it 4 years or less.

So you aren't able to provide any examples either? No problem.

 

[Platapie]

If the team Burke inherited was such a "disgraceful roster", shouldn't it be relatively easy for Burke to show some improvement? It's been almost 4 years for heavens sake...

We don't score more goals, don't prevent more goals, don't win more games, have lower rated prospects, and have a Marlies team with a worse overall record (albeit winning one more game in the playoffs).

If you're building from nothing, shouldn't it have been pretty easy to show some sort of improvement in almost 4 years?

Two things.

1. There is no debate that the team he inherited was a disgrace. The most talented forward on the roster by a country mile was Antropov-- a mediocre first liner. Kaberle had started to decline on the back end.

2. There has been significant improvement in the talent level of the squad. Some of it through drafting/just being a crappy team, but a non-insignificant portion from extremely lopsided trades where he clearly got the upper hand.

The Leafs are STILL paying for the Quinn/JFJ/Fletcher years where youth was tossed aside and competitiveness was bought. EVERYONE knew that wouldn't last-- the Leafs were warned about it for about half a decade, until the lockout/"new" NHL forced their hand. Belfour's decline (again, predicted), was the capper. We no longer could mask our terrible squad with elite goaltending. Thus began this nightmare.

 

[achtungbaby]

I would put large sums of money on the fact that almost all of them will be complaining about Nonis in a couple months.

If Nonis has the same level of fail that Burke has had, you're damn right I'll be complaining about it. I cheer for the Leafs, not the GM.

 

[achtungbaby]

Only in Toronto does the timeframe have to be in short order. 9 GMs in 24 years shows that quite clearly.

29 franchises a year don't have a winning team. Should Ken Holland be fired because he hasn't produced a winner since '08?

His teams consistently make the playoffs and are in the discussion of the top teams in the league on a yearly basis. Would you fire him or are you just looking for something to complain about?

 

[kilgro]

I love the argument saying Burke hasnt improved our team since hes been here. Coming from people who have been around the block too. Just total hard ons for hating Burke when he's the reason we are set up so well moving forward under the new CBA. 3.5 yrs on the job and now hopefully nonis will reap the benefits. I'm gonna miss all the whining on this board and most of all I'm gonna miss Burke ripping the media apart. God bless you Brian Burke you god amongst men

 

[New Liskeard]

Ken Holland's Red Wings haven't missed the playoffs in over 20 years and have won 4 Stanley Cups (1997,1998, 2002 & 2008) under his direction as GM. In fact he is the most successful NHL GM currently employed.

If that is the brush you want to use to judge GM performance on as a benchmark than Leaf Nation would be delighted with his results, and can only dream of having Detroit's level of success.

If your standards for success are that high that no Cup in 4 years brings into question the job performance of Holland, than surely 4 non playoff, bottom 10 finishes by Burke in comparison should help explain his dismissal.

Odd you would use Holland as a reference. Holland himslef said a GM, in order to be judged and graded properly, needs 10 years of work to be properly graded.

 

[FerrisRox]

Happy he's gone?

There's no question that the Maple Leafs are better off without this bombastic comically overrated blowhard in the General Manger's chair.

Now Leaf fans can stop pretending he was some sort of misunderstood hockey genius and stop defending his idiotic "principals" that governed his out-dated code of conduct that took the Maple Leafs out of most free agent conversations and they can stop trying to justify his spotty track record and laughable free agent track record.

He came in, made some questionable moves and took a crappy team and made a crappy team with a better farm system. Enough is enough. Good riddance.

 

[Confucius]

If Nonis has the same level of fail that Burke has had, you're damn right I'll be complaining about it. I cheer for the Leafs, not the GM.

Absolutely, the only difference would be I would not be giddy about it. Sort of like when Maurice got axed, he wasn't getting it done but you had to feel bad for him because he was a classy guy. Not some loudmouth.

 

[ULF_55]

Odd you would use Holland as a reference. Holland himslef said a GM, in order to be judged and graded properly, needs 10 years of work to be properly graded.

Does that apply to all GM's or just Burke?