Player Discussion Buffalo Pickers - The Search For Serviceable Defensemen, Summer of '23 Edition

[Sabresfansince1980]

Being better than the previous #4 guy does not make you a legit top 4 D.

Clifton seems like a guy much like Miller was. The analytics look good in a lesser role on a better team. History tells us that a bet like that is 50/50 at best when it comes to working out. Clifton very likely turns out to be Jokiharju/Boosh-ish here and we are again looking for an ever elusive 4th top 4 D again next summer.

This is exactly what we have...a bunch of options of bottom-pair quality. It's not horrible. It's not BAD that we have more and possibly a better 3rd pair guy. But having Clifton as that guy for 3 yrs is rather underwhelming. My hope is that after EJ and Lyubushkin move on next summer, Clifton can be the regular 3rd pair guy, and someone else can be acquired. I don't feel confident in an undersized Clifton withstanding multiple playoff rounds of playoff forechecking, and maybe like this past April having his TOI reduced to the point of being a healthy scratch.

These moves don't solve anything, they just improve the options of a mediocre area on the roster. Clifton isn't becoming a better player at age 28, he's done developing. I still have hopes of a Joker/Bryson/Lyubushkin/Comrie/UPL trade that can be packaged with a nice pick to get a true 2nd pair guy this month, but I doubt it. We'll still be mediocre in this portion of the roster during the regular season, and probably weak there in the playoffs.

I can live with CC and EJ for this season though. It's not like a SC win hinges on these guys, not for now.

 

[MOGlLNY]

It’s definitely underwhelming overall but any true no doubt Top 4 guy is gonna be acquired in a trade. Clifton was one of the best options if we are talking strictly FA. Our defense is definitely better.

Guess we will see what Pesce goes for before I’m disappointed. But all the 1 year deals, Olofsson gone and Dahlin’s extension boost will clear 10 million or around there for next year; it kinda makes me think we are planning to trade for someone else as well.

 

[Jim Bob]

Asking him to be the defensive thumper for Power, playing 14 or so ES min a night with 2 to 3 PK min is a reasonable ask for his skillset

The challenge is that Power averaged over 20 minutes a game at ES as a rookie. So, if Clifton is only playing 14 min or so a game at ES, that isn’t going to be as Power’s partner unless the plan is to play Dahlin and Power together at ES for 6-7 minutes a game.

I think we should first look, then draw conclusions, it would be fair.

Also, you ignored my examples, are there top 4 defenders or do you consider them all to be bad options and players not from the top 4.

All those other examples would be similar to me as guys that might be better than Jokiharju but unproven as big minute too 4 guys that we really need as Power’s partner.

Unless the game plan is to put Dahlin and Power together and then Samuelsson with Clifton as a shutdown pair like Carolina has done with Skjei and Pesce.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

It’s definitely underwhelming overall but any true no doubt Top 4 guy is gonna be acquired in a trade. Clifton was one of the best options if we are talking strictly FA. Our defense is definitely better.

Guess we will see what Pesce goes for before I’m disappointed. But all the 1 year deals, Olofsson gone and Dahlin’s extension boost will clear 10 million or around there for next year; it kinda makes me think we are planning to trade for someone else as well.

Seven UFAs will definitely be off the roster next summer (if not sooner), opening up 19.5 mil.

 

[Fjordsen]

All those other examples would be similar to me as guys that might be better than Jokiharju but unproven as big minute too 4 guys that we really need as Power’s partner.

Unless the game plan is to put Dahlin and Power together and then Samuelsson with Clifton as a shutdown pair like Carolina has done with Skjei and Pesce.

Well, yes, most of them are wild cards, but that doesn't mean it won't work. Clifton seems to be the type of player that suits us. I think we will draw conclusions during the season.

 

[MOGlLNY]

Seven UFAs will definitely be off the roster next summer (if not sooner), opening up 19.5 mil.

So i think hypothetically if nobody else is added we’d have about 25.5?

then Dahlin’s extension eats 4 of that if the 10 x 8 is true. Power could eat a third of 21.5 / Mitts extension / etc.

I think there’s room to fit Pesce extension and a stopgap goalie in there while covering the raises. We shall see what happens

 

[Dirty Dog]

It was a low risk high upside move. KA at the worse got a 5 RHD at a reasonable rate that can slide higher in the pairings, while insulating himself for next off-season when Lybushkin and EJ move.

Right, he either establishes himself as a great fit for power OR he goes on the third pairing the next year. Win - Win

 

[Old Navy Goat]

What you're failing to account for is a better 3rd pairing will eat some of those minutes so I'd expect Power and Dahlin to get reduced ES min

 

[dkollidas]

I believe many are technically correct when they state that neither Johnson nor Clifton (yet) are top-4 defensemen.
But I do believe these were good signings for a few reasons...

1) Clifton may yet prove himself to be a top-4 defenseman, limited opportunity in Boston and he does have good analytical number
2) Johnson adds a veteran presence this team needs on the back end. Last season Lybushkin was their most veteran D with about 200 careeer Games Played.
3) Clifton & Johnson may have cost a bit more than some thought he would, but the term, (3yrs for Clifton & 1yr for Johnson) allow the team to build young depth behind these players, while not being stuck with them long term either.
4) It must also be considered that when you have 3 defensemen like Dahlin, Power, and Samuelsson, you have to consider that about 70-75 minutes per night are covered by those three. 120 minutes need to be played in a typical game by a teams' defense group, but cut it down another 5min bc on PP's there's usually only one defneseman. So 115 - 70 = 45 minutes to be played by the other three. That equates to roughly 15min each for the bottom 3 defensemen on our team. Johnson & Clifton, and whomever of Jokhiharju, Stillman, Lybushkin, & Bryson that they keep & dress can cover that.

-Also, those that believe having 9 d-men will necessitate a trade are incorrect imo. One of Bryson, Lybushkin, Stillman (and I believe strongly it'll be Bryson) will be placed on waivers, and if it's Bryson I believe he'll have a good chance of clearing to Rochester.

 

[Dubi Doo]

What you're failing to account for is a better 3rd pairing will eat some of those minutes so I'd expect Power and Dahlin to get reduced ES min

This cannot be overstated.

 

[Jim Bob]

Well, yes, most of them are wild cards, but that doesn't mean it won't work. Clifton seems to be the type of player that suits us. I think we will draw conclusions during the season.

When players hit UFA they tend to be fully baked and it is rare that they elevate and fill a bigger role than they ever had in their career. Kind of like how people, myself included, had hope that Comrie could be more than he had been previously last season.

Those kinds of bets keep casinos in business.

 

[Fjordsen]

When players hit UFA they tend to be fully baked and it is rare that they elevate and fill a bigger role than they ever had in their career.

Those kinds of bets keep casinos in business.

Sorry, but I think it's nonsense, different players get into the UFA. This may or may not work. I trust eye test and statistics. I also believe in Granato that he can reveal players very well.

 

[Jim Bob]

What you're failing to account for is a better 3rd pairing will eat some of those minutes so I'd expect Power and Dahlin to get reduced ES min

I will believe that when I see it, quite honestly.

Sorry, but I think it's nonsense, different players get into the UFA. This may or may not work. I trust eye test and statistics. I also believe in Granato that he can reveal players very well.

It is nonsense that most players that hit UFA in their late 20s to early 30s rarely elevate their play?

Did Comrie or Boosh elevate their play last season?

The best case scenario is less that Clifton elevates his play than it is that Power is able to carry him along.

 

[Fjordsen]

It is nonsense that most players that hit UFA in their late 20s to early 30s rarely elevate their play?

Did Comrie or Boosh elevate their play last season?

The best case scenario is less that Clifton elevates his play than it is that Power is able to carry him along.

Why not? Comrie is a different story altogether, he's a goaltender and played 10 good games in the NHL by the age of 27 before signing with the Buffalo. He is an AHL goaltender. Lyubushkin constantly played with an injury, also a bad example. I bet a lot of players after the UFA began to play better in other teams and under the guidance of other coaches.

 

[EichHart]

Lets not forget Dahlin, Power, and Samuelsson are all 1 yr older and should be getting better each year as they develop. That alone is the biggest improvement of our defense this season.

 

[SabresFanNorthPortFL]

I’m surprised by a lot of doom and gloom by the Clifton signing.

We’ve missed the playoffs for over a decade, he came from a club that’s been in the playoffs for over a decade, and one that just had the best nhl regular season record ever…and he floated between 2nd/3rd pairings playing behind a stud in McAvoy and Carlo…not bad. Not to mention he came from a team that has historically beat us up physically (yeah, gonna mention Lucic running over Miller) and he almost doubled our hits leader….yes, please give me a part of that big, bad Bruins mystique!!!!

We have TWO #1 ToP OF THE DRAFT defenseman, which should mean TWO STUDS…..they’re gonna run our defense, not their partners.

I think Adams hit at least a double/triple with the two pickups.

Tiers:

1: Dahlin



Power

2: Sammy

3: clifton

4: Lubby, Stillman, Joker

5: Bryson, Johnson, Clague, whoever else

We’re looking good here!!!

 

[Snippit]

Late to the party. My first thought, without reading any other posts, is that we have not acquired our established top 4 guy to pair with Power, and that's what I think we desperately needed.

So I hope the 2 signings don't preclude us from trying to make a trade for such a player, but I doubt it's coming given the surplus of D now.

Clifton is a good signing, but I would have wanted Clifton on top of a legit top 4 guy like Pesce.

At least we'll have lots of options for bottom pair defenseman and are insulated against injury.

 

[Jim Bob]

Why not? Comrie is a different story altogether, he's a goaltender and played 10 good games in the NHL by the age of 27 before signing with the Buffalo. He is an AHL goaltender. Lyubushkin constantly played with an injury, also a bad example. I bet a lot of players after the UFA began to play better in other teams and under the guidance of other coaches.

That trajectory is not pointing up.

 

[NotABadPeriod]

That trajectory is not pointing up.

I mean, once a player hits UFA they're almost always on the wrong side of the aging curve, so of course the trajectory is going to point down.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

I believe many are technically correct when they state that neither Johnson nor Clifton (yet) are top-4 defensemen.
But I do believe these were good signings for a few reasons...

1) Clifton may yet prove himself to be a top-4 defenseman, limited opportunity in Boston and he does have good analytical number
2) Johnson adds a veteran presence this team needs on the back end. Last season Lybushkin was their most veteran D with about 200 careeer Games Played.
3) Clifton & Johnson may have cost a bit more than some thought he would, but the term, (3yrs for Clifton & 1yr for Johnson) allow the team to build young depth behind these players, while not being stuck with them long term either.
4) It must also be considered that when you have 3 defensemen like Dahlin, Power, and Samuelsson, you have to consider that about 70-75 minutes per night are covered by those three. 120 minutes need to be played in a typical game by a teams' defense group, but cut it down another 5min bc on PP's there's usually only one defneseman. So 115 - 70 = 45 minutes to be played by the other three. That equates to roughly 15min each for the bottom 3 defensemen on our team. Johnson & Clifton, and whomever of Jokhiharju, Stillman, Lybushkin, & Bryson that they keep & dress can cover that.

-Also, those that believe having 9 d-men will necessitate a trade are incorrect imo. One of Bryson, Lybushkin, Stillman (and I believe strongly it'll be Bryson) will be placed on waivers, and if it's Bryson I believe he'll have a good chance of clearing to Rochester.

Good points, and I guess I’m just willing to see how Clifton works with Power before I make any judgments. A meh Boston defenseman might be legit for us, and chemistry with a partner can go a long way. Adams seems to be targeting specific guys he thinks will work, so if he says this is good I’m willing to wait and see.

My question is about who our top 6 are. We have:
Samuelsson- Dahlin
Power- Clifton
Jokiharju- Johnson.

Boosh plays RD, correct? Can he play LD?

Just feels somewhat a waste of a decent player. He has warts, he’s bottom pairing, but he hits and blocks shots, I like the dude. I think I get what we’re trying to do with EJ, if he can make Joki not suck then that’s probably an overall improvement (he can probably help advise Clifton as well)- but is EJ really better than Boosh? Just feels like there’s some redundancy there now. Are we just looking to have a strong 7th option instead of having to deal with Bryson or Stillman? And what happens with Stillman then? He didn’t look too awful, we traded for the dude, but now he’d be 8th? I don’t question the Clifton deal, willing to give that a shot, I’m just not sure about the logjam at the bottom.

 

[dkollidas]

Good points, and I guess I’m just willing to see how Clifton works with Power before I make any judgments. A meh Boston defenseman might be legit for us, and chemistry with a partner can go a long way. Adams seems to be targeting specific guys he thinks will work, so if he says this is good I’m willing to wait and see.

My question is about who our top 6 are. We have:
Samuelsson- Dahlin
Power- Clifton
Jokiharju- Johnson.

Boosh plays RD, correct? Can he play LD?

Just feels somewhat a waste of a decent player. He has warts, he’s bottom pairing, but he hits and blocks shots, I like the dude. I think I get what we’re trying to do with EJ, if he can make Joki not suck then that’s probably an overall improvement (he can probably help advise Clifton as well)- but is EJ really better than Boosh? Just feels like there’s some redundancy there now. Are we just looking to have a strong 7th option instead of having to deal with Bryson or Stillman? And what happens with Stillman then? He didn’t look too awful, we traded for the dude, but now he’d be 8th? I don’t question the Clifton deal, willing to give that a shot, I’m just not sure about the logjam at the bottom.

I think a lot of folks will disagree with me but I’d bet the 6th defenseman is Stillman.

I’d assume Johnson with his pedigree could possibly play the left side???

But I see the depth chart as follows:

D1: Samuelsson-Dahlin
D2: Power-Clifton
D3 Stillman-Johnson
Extras:
-Lybushkin
-Jokhiharju

*Bryson placed on waivers, I believe he’s clear.

+ don’t forget Ryan Johnson maybe by mid-season could be worthy of a Call-Up.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

I’m surprised by a lot of doom and gloom by the Clifton signing.

We’ve missed the playoffs for over a decade, he came from a club that’s been in the playoffs for over a decade, and one that just had the best nhl regular season record ever…and he floated between 2nd/3rd pairings playing behind a stud in McAvoy and Carlo…not bad. Not to mention he came from a team that has historically beat us up physically (yeah, gonna mention Lucic running over Miller) and he almost doubled our hits leader….yes, please give me a part of that big, bad Bruins mystique!!!!

We have TWO #1 ToP OF THE DRAFT defenseman, which should mean TWO STUDS…..they’re gonna run our defense, not their partners.

I think Adams hit at least a double/triple with the two pickups.

Tiers:

1: Dahlin



Power

2: Sammy

3: clifton

4: Lubby, Stillman, Joker

5: Bryson, Johnson, Clague, whoever else

We’re looking good here!!!

You need serious depth on D to survive the season so I’d prefer that we keep all of them, or at the most let only one in that last tier go.

 

[Jim Bob]

I think a lot of folks will disagree with me but I’d bet the 6th defenseman is Stillman.

I’d assume Johnson with his pedigree could possibly play the left side???

But I see the depth chart as follows:

D1: Samuelsson-Dahlin
D2: Power-Clifton
D3 Stillman-Johnson
Extras:
-Lybushkin
-Jokhiharju

*Bryson placed on waivers, I believe he’s clear.

+ don’t forget Ryan Johnson maybe by mid-season could be worthy of a Call-Up.

I believe they did play Jokiharju a little bit on the left side last season.

Stillman/Jokiharju - Lyubushkin/Johnson might be the 3rd pair vs healthy scratch battle.

 

[TageGod]

Coba-Dahlin
Power-Clifton
Boosh-Johnson

I am gonna trade Joker here, in a package for...something.

 

[joshjull]

I think a lot of folks will disagree with me but I’d bet the 6th defenseman is Stillman.

I’d assume Johnson with his pedigree could possibly play the left side???

But I see the depth chart as follows:

D1: Samuelsson-Dahlin
D2: Power-Clifton
D3 Stillman-Johnson
Extras:
-Lybushkin
-Jokhiharju

*Bryson placed on waivers, I believe he’s clear.

+ don’t forget Ryan Johnson maybe by mid-season could be worthy of a Call-Up.

Stillman might be the #6 dman if Joker gets traded. I know Donny feels he can get more from him. His adaption to playing for us got derailed by getting injured fighting Jeannot. It led to minimal ice time after. But next season is a fresh start for him.

But if Joker is here, there is no way he sits for Stillman or Boosh.