Value of: Broberg to NYR

McJedi

Registered User
Apr 21, 2020
10,769
7,680
Florida
bern doing some research
kudos to blues for OSing him

what are st louis current needs, pref in order of priority?
blues fans in particular pls weigh in

I am compiling one of my blueprints and I want to see if there is a match, most likely prospects/picks, that is a fit.

also,
merry Christmas

any interested can go to the OT thread at the Rs board and check out my 2 Christmas songs!
ENJOY!!
I'm pretty sure the Blue's GM is high fiving himself for the two offer sheets. Holloway and Broberg have both played well enough to merit the pay raises they received in switching clubs. Getting Holloway for a 3rd round pick was a heck of a piece of GM work by St Louis.

I think those two offers sheets will make future NHL off seasons much more interesting. Because there are 32 NHL teams that should be using the offer sheet tool in order to pluck those mid level rookies off other teams, esp those that are contenders with no cap space to work with (much of the NHL).

It's not and never should have been a Bedard signing an OS that NHL team's should have worried about.

It's the Matt Knies, Marco Rossi, C Zary and Tyson Foerster tiers of players that should be the most in play. St Louis gave the rest of the NHL a roadmap when they pulled off their OS move this summer.

Bravo to them in doing so. I'm thrilled for the potential of what they've done and how it can upend many future off-seasons. Shocking it took so long for teams to figure it out. Hats off to Doug Armstrong for having the stones to pull this off.
 

McJedi

Registered User
Apr 21, 2020
10,769
7,680
Florida
I like Miller's tools, but he is a mess. Very basic hockey reads, too. There's a point at which not everyone can be damaged goods on the Rangers, but there's also a point at which you're giving up the kind of value that could get a return you're a lot more certain about.
K'Andre Miller is overrated IMO. And I suspect that opinion is becoming increasingly common in NHL circles.
 

Reality Czech

Registered User
Apr 17, 2017
6,119
9,927
I'm pretty sure the Blue's GM is high fiving himself for the two offer sheets. Holloway and Broberg have both played well enough to merit the pay raises they received in switching clubs. Getting Holloway for a 3rd round pick was a heck of a piece of GM work by St Louis.

I think those two offers sheets will make future NHL off seasons much more interesting. Because there are 32 NHL teams that should be using the offer sheet tool in order to pluck those mid level rookies off other teams, esp those that are contenders with no cap space to work with (much of the NHL).

It's not and never should have been a Bedard signing an OS that NHL team's should have worried about.

It's the Matt Knies, Marco Rossi, C Zary and Tyson Foerster tiers of players that should be the most in play. St Louis gave the rest of the NHL a roadmap when they pulled off their OS move this summer.

Bravo to them in doing so. I'm thrilled for the potential of what they've done and how it can upend many future off-seasons. Shocking it took so long for teams to figure it out. Hats off to Doug Armstrong for having the stones to pull this off.

Let's get honest, Edmonton also gave the league a roadmap on how not to handle quality young RFAs as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bernmeister

tmg

Registered User
Jul 10, 2003
3,011
1,819
Ottawa
Yeah--double checked it and he can not be traded till August 2025

Can you link to where you found this?

I’ve seen it stated that if a team matches an offer sheet, they can’t trade the player for one year … but I’ve never seen any statement of restriction on an accepted (and not matched) offer sheet, like Broberg’s.
 

McJedi

Registered User
Apr 21, 2020
10,769
7,680
Florida
Let's get honest, Edmonton also gave the league a roadmap on how not to handle quality young RFAs as well.
I suppose... But those two were hardly the only RFAs unsigned on the day St Louis got Holloway and Broberg to ink offer sheets.

NHL teams (beyond the Oil) had this sense of invincibly and leverage in RFA discussions and that sense was destroyed to tiny bits and pieces the day Doug Armstrong pulled this caper off.

Edmonton's real problem was parity and the salary cap. And that's hardly just an Edmonton problem. It's at least half the NHL any given off-season.. most of the contenders.

Where does Dallas get the money to resign Wyatt Johnston this summer if Calgary comes along and offers the same deal as St Louis did for Broberg?

Team's are going to be able to really screw over the contenders and make them pay much more for the RFAs thanks to Doug Armstrong.

I think it's going to have a negative impact on older UFAs that have less money available as teams will have to allocate more to the younger RFAs (which, quite frankly, is better business).

I think you guys and I will see a much different RFA landscape next summer and I believe that new landscape will become the norm. I mean... St Louis crushed this IMO. They got two key young guys for minimal compensation relative to value. IMO - that is exactly what makes a good GM.
 

Reality Czech

Registered User
Apr 17, 2017
6,119
9,927
I suppose... But those two were hardly the only RFAs unsigned on the day St Louis got Holloway and Broberg to ink offer sheets.

NHL teams (beyond the Oil) had this sense of invincibly and leverage in RFA discussions and that sense was destroyed to tiny bits and pieces the day Doug Armstrong pulled this caper off.

Edmonton's real problem was parity and the salary cap. And that's hardly just an Edmonton problem. It's at least half the NHL any given off-season.. most of the contenders.

Where does Dallas get the money to resign Wyatt Johnston this summer if Calgary comes along and offers the same deal as St Louis did for Broberg?

Team's are going to be able to really screw over the contenders and make them pay much more for the RFAs thanks to Doug Armstrong.

I think it's going to have a negative impact on older UFAs that have less money available as teams will have to allocate more to the younger RFAs (which, quite frankly, is better business).

I think you guys and I will see a much different RFA landscape next summer and I believe that new landscape will become the norm. I mean... St Louis crushed this IMO. They got two key young guys for minimal compensation relative to value. IMO - that is exactly what makes a good GM.

They weren't the only unsigned RFAs but they were the only to sign an offer sheet. Why do you think that was? You can't really use the salary cap as an excuse because every team has the same cap and parity affects everyone.

I'd say the only guys who are at risk of signing an OS are ones who feel they aren't being treated fairly in negotiations with their team, are highly valued by another team and perhaps more importantly, are willing to leave the situation they are in.

I'm willing to bet Wyatt Johnson won't sign an OS, especially with Calgary, because he probably doesn't wanna leave Dallas for on and off ice reasons. Of course if Dallas low balls him or they let him sit without a contract for long enough, then he might reconsider.

If anything, the main change going forward will probably be that teams won't take their RFAs for granted and will address the situation sooner than later rather than just letting them sit for months without at least making a competitive offer. The Oilers should have been shopping Broberg then moment they knew he wasn't likely to re-sign there. Colossal screw up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kahvi

DJN21

Registered User
Aug 8, 2011
10,039
3,366
Rochester
betw it being Christmas and the sarcasm icon, I'll let that slide
at this pt ONLY match for Zib relocation is VAN

KAM is a broadly similar skillset some at Rs board are improperly disillusioned with when yeah, he makes the odd bonehead play but prob has mostly been tried to do too much w/Trouba as partner, and now am trying to find an optimal fit

Down the road, development, etc
but right now KAM for Bro is basically lateral

thanks all we have enuf for now
this can die a natural death...
The bolded makes me scared for whats going on upstairs with you.....
 

Reality Czech

Registered User
Apr 17, 2017
6,119
9,927
After Thomas and Dvorsky, Broberg might be the 3rd to last Blues player I'd want to trade right now. This thread can be locked.
 

bernmeister

Registered User
Jun 11, 2010
29,202
4,533
Da Big Apple
The bolded makes me scared for whats going on upstairs with you.....
you need to come off the high horse in a failed bid to take a dig at me

"we" there obv refers to me and anyone else who took the thread seriously to entertain the ?

Blues properly want a lot.
The ? is whether or not NYR had sufficient value in correct currency to even have a discussion
we do not
our currency is either too much or too little
 

SupremeTeam16

5-14-6-1
May 31, 2013
9,036
9,149
Baker’s Bay
I suppose... But those two were hardly the only RFAs unsigned on the day St Louis got Holloway and Broberg to ink offer sheets.

NHL teams (beyond the Oil) had this sense of invincibly and leverage in RFA discussions and that sense was destroyed to tiny bits and pieces the day Doug Armstrong pulled this caper off.

Edmonton's real problem was parity and the salary cap. And that's hardly just an Edmonton problem. It's at least half the NHL any given off-season.. most of the contenders.

Where does Dallas get the money to resign Wyatt Johnston this summer if Calgary comes along and offers the same deal as St Louis did for Broberg?

Team's are going to be able to really screw over the contenders and make them pay much more for the RFAs thanks to Doug Armstrong.

I think it's going to have a negative impact on older UFAs that have less money available as teams will have to allocate more to the younger RFAs (which, quite frankly, is better business).

I think you guys and I will see a much different RFA landscape next summer and I believe that new landscape will become the norm. I mean... St Louis crushed this IMO. They got two key young guys for minimal compensation relative to value. IMO - that is exactly what makes a good GM.
I think the reason this hasn’t become commonplace is because gm’s understand that offer sheets for somewhat unproven rfa’s are inflationary, it offers negotiating leverage to agents and drives up AAV’s, drives up qualifying offers and drives up comparables during arbitration which is become more common and more contentious. Most executives aren’t generally so shortsighted and understand that by doing this it may benefit them slightly in the short term but long term they’re just driving up the cost on players you try to keep the cost down on to supplement your roster during critical competitive phases so in reality you’re kinda screwing your future self when you’ll be the contending team trying to keep your window open.

It also makes negotiations harder, if you look at comparables to these two players this summer, Armstrong blew them out of the water because he had to in order to ensure Edmonton walked away but those become the new comparables for agents, so even if you’re a GM who wants to offer a fair contract, an agent would be doing his client a disservice in signing an extension before getting to the period where he can go to other teams and fish for an above market offer, and at the very least use that leverage to squeeze more out of his clients current team.

I could see this creating a situation where besides the absolute top picks on bad teams many of these mid range prospects don’t see an NHL ice surface at all until their elc is done. Make it more difficult for other organizations to assess these players upside and make it far more risky for them to offer higher AAV’s and locking themselves in to higher qualifying offers. You take that leverage away from agents and reduce the risk of teams poaching guys coming off their elc.
 

McJedi

Registered User
Apr 21, 2020
10,769
7,680
Florida
I think the reason this hasn’t become commonplace is because gm’s understand that offer sheets for somewhat unproven rfa’s are inflationary, it offers negotiating leverage to agents and drives up AAV’s, drives up qualifying offers and drives up comparables during arbitration which is become more common and more contentious. Most executives aren’t generally so shortsighted and understand that by doing this it may benefit them slightly in the short term but long term they’re just driving up the cost on players you try to keep the cost down on to supplement your roster during critical competitive phases so in reality you’re kinda screwing your future self when you’ll be the contending team trying to keep your window open.

It also makes negotiations harder, if you look at comparables to these two players this summer, Armstrong blew them out of the water because he had to in order to ensure Edmonton walked away but those become the new comparables for agents, so even if you’re a GM who wants to offer a fair contract, an agent would be doing his client a disservice in signing an extension before getting to the period where he can go to other teams and fish for an above market offer, and at the very least use that leverage to squeeze more out of his clients current team.

I could see this creating a situation where besides the absolute top picks on bad teams many of these mid range prospects don’t see an NHL ice surface at all until their elc is done. Make it more difficult for other organizations to assess these players upside and make it far more risky for them to offer higher AAV’s and locking themselves in to higher qualifying offers. You take that leverage away from agents and reduce the risk of teams poaching guys coming off their elc.
You offer many interesting and logically sound thoughts so kudos for writing this and thinking it thru as you did. You're no dummy.

Let me offer a retort though. The GMs make pretty good money. Many over $2MM per year. A few over $3MM per. And these guys aren't guaranteed to be around all that long. Like the NFL... and most pro sports leagues, the NHL is a win now endeavor.

We've gone thru a few bad lockouts because owners and GMs can't help themselves from signing bad player contracts. So we've got evidence they can't really help themselves when it comes to trying to improve a team with some bizarre contracts and trades.

I think a lot of these GMs, esp the GMs of the bad teams, are incentivized differently than your long dated point of view. And lets be honest - the Blues aren't good. They haven't made the playoffs for a few years now and probably won't make them this season either. But I hear absolutely no one critizing Doug Armstrong for those two offer sheets today. Have you heard this?

It's usually the bad teams that have the most cap space and GMs in the most precarious positions. And now you use an offer sheet to steal a good young player from a contender and give up a measly 2nd or 3rd round pick in doing so? That is a tidy piece of business in the short run.

I still think I'm right and the long dated risks you speak of (which are very valid points you made, clever ones) don't outweigh the rewards in the short term nature of this well paying, but fleeting NHL job of GM.

Lets have a gentlemen's bet you and I. I bet you $1 preverbal dollar we see another offer sheet next summer and the compensation will be a 2nd or 3rd round pick going back to the team that has the decision to match or not. I think the new paradigm will be offer sheets on the mid tier young players like Holloway and Broberg. Not the elite ones like Bedard or Bouchard.

My retort to what I just wrote... It will be the agents, not the players, that are nervous about offer sheets and how the NHL GMs will react to this potential paradigm shift. I think Broberg and Holloway have amazing agents, but I bet several NHL GMs do not feel the same way about what happened with the Oilers this summer... using the reasons you illuminate in your post. It's an interesting dance Doug Armstrong started this summer.
 
Last edited:

SupremeTeam16

5-14-6-1
May 31, 2013
9,036
9,149
Baker’s Bay
You offer many interesting thoughts so kudos for writing this and thinking it thru as you did. You're no dummy.

Let me offer a retort though. The GMs make pretty good money. Many over $2MM per year. A few over $3MM per. And these guys aren't guaranteed to be around all that long. Like the NFL... and mot leagues, the NHL is a win now league.

We've gone thru a few bad lockouts because owners and GMs can't help themselves from signing bad player contracts.

I think a lot of these GMs, esp the GMs of the bad teams, are incentivized differently than your point of view. And lets be honest - the Blues aren't good. They haven't made the playoffs for a few years now and probably won't make them this season either. But I hear absolutely no one critizing Doug Armstrong for those two offer sheets today. Have you heard this?

It's usually the bad teams that have the most cap space and GMs in the most precarious positions. And now you use an offer sheet to steal a good young player from a contender and give up a measly 2nd or 3rd round pick in doing so? That is a tidy piece of business in the short run.

I still think I'm right and the long dated risks you speak of (which are very valid points you made, clever ones) don't outweigh the rewards in the short term nature of this well paying, but fleeting NHL job of GM.

Lets have a gentlemen's bet you and I. I bet you $1 preverbal dollar we see another offer sheet next summer and the compensation will be a 2nd or 3rd round pick going back to the team that has the decision to match or not. I think the new paradigm will be offer sheets on the mid tier young players like Holloway and Broberg. Not the elite ones like Bedard or Bouchard.
Definitely it’s a results driven business for GM’s and I think in this situation that plays a factor and even though Armstrong is long tenured selling any sort of long term rebuild vision is probably a tough sell given the St. Louis market, the fact they are on the lower end of the revenue scale for franchises and they’ve got a large ownership group. So he has to get creative and take shots like this to try and keep them getting into the playoffs as much as possible but I see at a team that lacks the kind of high end talent needed to build a contender with an extended window, they had an unlikely run to a cup that’s been bookended by missing the playoffs or being first/second round fodder. I think that moves like this just continue to keep them in the mushy middle where they aren’t getting high enough in the draft in consecutive years to get those elite building blocks but always fighting for a playoff spot and getting half a dozen to a dozen playoff games a year.


to your retort, I don’t think Darren Ferris is a particularly good agent, I think he’s known for shady tactics and people don’t like dealing with him and I think that’s reflected in his dwindling client base which is frankly quite weak for a guy who’s been in the game just as long as Brisson/Oster/Milsten/Barry and others who have far better client lists. Ferris has one marquee name in Marner and it wouldn’t shock me if Marner is repped by someone else come this summer, after Marner he’s got a pretty dog shit client list. Fleecing a desperate Flames on the Kadri deal is his next best contract. As for Holloways newby agent, I’d say that guy is getting really lucky that Holloway is covering the bet so far. We’ve seen so often lately teams walking away from young guys who didn’t cover on their second contract and teams aren’t qualifying them because they don’t want to risk an arb award. Alot of these guys end up having to take a cheaper short term deals somewhere to try and rebuild value. It’s still early for Holloway and Broberg for that matter, if they cool off, have an underwhelming season next year, get a season derailed by injury whatever the case may be they could very well find themselves in a tough situation instead of looking at signing a bigger money long term deal.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad