Brisson confirms that EP40 dealt with injury which prevented him from Off-season Training.

[ExarKun80]

Alvin is GM mostly in name. He is more of scout and it's JR that makes the important decisions and deals. Anyone who thinks otherwise has not been paying attention.

 

[credulous]

petey was probably being bullied during the travis green days/ bruce boudreau and it to a boil until this season and has had enough. therefore Miller "the toxic one" got dealt. why didnt mgmnt deal with it sooner or least petey come and speak with benning and company beforehand. they let this dragged on for years and years.

miller has stories like this going way back. he was run out of new york and tampa and only jimbo was stupid enough to give up assets for him. the canucks would have traded him years ago if there was a market for him but until new york's collapse and drury getting desperate no one would take him off their hands except for scraps

all the media stories about how carolina and colorado and dallas were interested was just vultures trying to get him next to free because they knew he had no value. literally no team outside of vancouver in 2019 and new york in 2024/25 want him in their room

 

[PuckMunchkin]

yes exactly i have and you and PM have kept pushing a narrative that it's all Miller or Management or Coaching or Doctors to the point you have aggravated a lot of other posters to be as equally biased in their opinions and shove that right back at you.
And now this is supposed to be some moment of clarity?

I find the player the most culpable here because first off he could have easily taken some maintenance days as last year winded down. Secondly he stupidly opened his mouth at post game media meetings which is faux pas (whether you want to say it's archaic or whatever) you don't throw your teammates under the bus by using it as an excuse when they did not. This is hockey culture 101 just like picking up the puck for a players first NHL goal is yet??.

And lastly maybe if he sat down and communicated at camp what was going on and why it could have been a completely different outcome with different optics and maybe even Miller is still here.

At least your willing to accept a disconnect which is clearly a thing. Tocchet might be a bit of an old school hard ass but he's a great communicator. It still boggles my mind what has transpired

No.

It started with the conspiracy theories that Elias Pettersson was never injured.. Spread by a handful of more or less openly biased posters.

All I have done is tried to keep the discussion grounded in reality by pushing back on this conspiracy theory and its latter iterations when Ive had the energy to do so.

Im not sure I buy the theory that Millers behaviour directly affected EPs play on ice. If it did so, it would be highly unusual. But their rift pretty clearly affected the vibes of the entire team.

 

[Bleach Clean]

yes exactly i have and you and PM have kept pushing a narrative that it's all Miller or Management or Coaching or Doctors to the point you have aggravated a lot of other posters to be as equally biased in their opinions and shove that right back at you.
And now this is supposed to be some moment of clarity?

I'm not fully blaming Pettersson for a lack of communication in the offseason. He already rang the alarm in the post-season presser. (And in season)

Communication is a two way street. If management felt concern, they can implement a plan. They did not. They didn't even consider it an 'injury'.

I find the player the most culpable here because first off he could have easily taken some maintenance days as last year winded down. Secondly he stupidly opened his mouth at post game media meetings which is faux pas (whether you want to say it's archaic or whatever) you don't throw your teammates under the bus by using it as an excuse when they did not. This is hockey culture 101 just like picking up the puck for a players first NHL goal is yet??.

And lastly maybe if he sat down and communicated at camp what was going on and why it could have been a completely different outcome with different optics and maybe even Miller is still here.

At least your willing to accept a disconnect which is clearly a thing. Tocchet might be a bit of an old school hard ass but he's a great communicator. It still boggles my mind what has transpired

What has transpired isn't confusing.

From the time of injury to now, Pettersson and Management/Coach have been misaligned. Brisson confirms he was injured and may yet be. If that is what you ascribe to my narrative, then it's been proven true. Bias or no bias.

Miller has been a problem for 5 years. Pettersson taking maintenance days or keeping injuries secret does nothing to change that. Miller had to go.

For most culpable, start looking at the managers who left Miller unchecked in the room. Or the coach who thought Miller could mentor Pettersson. That is tone deaf leadership.

Pettersson may have been unreachable (not good), but there's a reason these particular people could not reach him.

 

[F A N]

I'm not fully blaming Pettersson for a lack of communication in the offseason. He already rang the alarm in the post-season presser. (And in season)

Communication is a two way street. If management felt concern, they can implement a plan. They did not. They didn't even consider it an 'injury'.



What has transpired isn't confusing.

From the time of injury to now, Pettersson and Management/Coach have been misaligned. Brisson confirms he was injured and may yet be. If that is what you ascribe to my narrative, then it's been proven true. Bias or no bias.

Miller has been a problem for 5 years. Pettersson taking maintenance days or keeping injuries secret does nothing to change that. Miller had to go.

For most culpable, start looking at the managers who left Miller unchecked in the room. Or the coach who thought Miller could mentor Pettersson. That is tone deaf leadership.

Pettersson may have been unreachable (not good), but there's a reason these particular people could not reach him.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you and I have both defended Petey and criticized him. My view is that a player's ability to essentially play through injuries is unfortunately a requirement in the NHL. But I do believe this has become a separate discussion most of the time here.

I just think the whole thing stinks. It's extremely odd that two star players playing on different lines can get to a point where one needs to be traded because individual and team performance is affected. You can say Miller has been a problem but he reportedly is the guy organizing team events. Regardless he is gone. I also think it's odd for management and head coach to downplay a star player's claims of being injured. Like the comments made about Hodgson back in the day was shocking but Hodgson was just a prospect who haven't proven anything in the NHL. Petey on the other hand is a the anointed franchise C who the team gave the richest contract to in team history. Have you ever heard NHL management or HC (nevermind together and in unison) question a star player / downplay his claim of injury like this?

 

[Diversification]

Pretendonitis Pete feeling the heat now that JT can’t shelter him so he has his agent do damage control on his behalf.

Never seen a more high maintenance hockey player in my life. Dude is just a total headache all the time for the team, coaching and management.

I completely disagree with your takes on Pettersson, but I have to respect that that's a killer nickname. Well done.

 

[Bobby9]

I completely disagree with your takes on Pettersson, but I have to respect that that's a killer nickname. Well done.

It works because the pretendonitis flares up whenever he goes through a poor stretch. Fans, agents all have that in their back pocket now.

 

[Hodgy]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you and I have both defended Petey and criticized him. My view is that a player's ability to essentially play through injuries is unfortunately a requirement in the NHL. But I do believe this has become a separate discussion most of the time here.

I just think the whole thing stinks. It's extremely odd that two star players playing on different lines can get to a point where one needs to be traded because individual and team performance is affected. You can say Miller has been a problem but he reportedly is the guy organizing team events. Regardless he is gone. I also think it's odd for management and head coach to downplay a star player's claims of being injured. Like the comments made about Hodgson back in the day was shocking but Hodgson was just a prospect who haven't proven anything in the NHL. Petey on the other hand is a the anointed franchise C who the team gave the richest contract to in team history. Have you ever heard NHL management or HC (nevermind together and in unison) question a star player / downplay his claim of injury like this?

There is one key assumption that @Bleach Clean hasn’t proven: that management and Pettersson were not aligned on the severity of the injury. This, of course, may be true, but there isn’t any real evidence to suggest it is. The evidence being relied on is his poor performance (NHL edge numbers) but those are not evidence of causation but are evidence of his poor performance which is self evident. Moreover, the NHL edge numbers show he exhibited a 10% decline in his speed pre-injury.

Brisson seems to be defending Pettersson’s off season training. And that seems to be where management and the Pettersson disagree (I.e., whether Pettersson could have trained better in the off season).

 

[I am toxic]

petey was probably being bullied during the travis green days/ bruce boudreau and it to a boil until this season and has had enough. therefore Miller "the toxic one" got dealt. why didnt mgmnt deal with it sooner or least petey come and speak with benning and company beforehand. they let this dragged on for years and years.

If you understood hockey culture and dressing room dynamics, you would understand why this virtually never happens

 

[SopelFanThe3rd]

Allegedly Miller was also very hard on the goalies over the years and that may be why Demko was unhappy

 

[strattonius]

Alvin is GM mostly in name. He is more of scout and it's JR that makes the important decisions and deals. Anyone who thinks otherwise has not been paying attention.

Gaslighting people here.

It's not an accurate take and there's no evidence to suggest Alvin is Rutherford's puppet.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

It works because the pretendonitis flares up whenever he goes through a poor stretch. Fans, agents all have that in their back pocket now.

You are giving him way too much credit.

Pettersson is obviously too stupid and lazy to do anything of the sort.

All he is good for is stealing your hard earned canadian dollars, falling down and crying in europeanees.

#apologist

There is one key assumption that @Bleach Clean hasn’t proven: that management and Pettersson were not aligned on the severity of the injury. This, of course, may be true, but there isn’t any real evidence to suggest it is. The evidence being relied on is his poor performance (NHL edge numbers) but those are not evidence of causation but are evidence of his poor performance which is self evident. Moreover, the NHL edge numbers show he exhibited a 10% decline in his speed pre-injury.

Brisson seems to be defending Pettersson’s off season training. And that seems to be where management and the Pettersson disagree (I.e., whether Pettersson could have trained better in the off season).

There is video evidence that Tocchet and Pettersson were not aligned. It follows that...

 

[Peter Griffin]

Allegedly Miller was also very hard on the goalies over the years and that may be why Demko was unhappy

Allegedly? We saw it in person when he publicly berated what’s his face when he didn’t head to the bench for the extra attacker.

I think Miller probably had two sides to him. The overly passionate on-ice player who would often go to far in criticizing his teammates when he himself was often prone to poor play. And the off-ice guy who by all accounts was the type of guy to organize events and generally be someone that most guys liked being around. I think far too often the first guy reared his ugly head and it got to be too much for the team to accept.

 

[strattonius]

Allegedly? We saw it in person when he publicly berated what’s his face when he didn’t head to the bench for the extra attacker.

I think Miller probably had two sides to him. The overly passionate on-ice player who would often go to far in criticizing his teammates when he himself was often prone to poor play. And the off-ice guy who by all accounts was the type of guy to organize events and generally be someone that most guys liked being around. I think far too often the first guy reared his ugly head and it got to be too much for the team to accept.

It's Blake Wheeler 2.0.

We are in a better place to move forward without Miller.

 

[Hodgy]

There is video evidence that Tocchet and Pettersson were not aligned. It follows that...

That’s fair, you could interpret that as a difference in opinion as to severity. But as I already stated, and others have stated as well, that can just as easily be explained by Pettersson and management having a different threshold in terms of when to disclose an injury. As I have always said, I thought Pettersson looked sheepish when he disclosed it, and just because he disclosed it but the team did not doesn’t mean that they disagreed on the severity.

Lots of players won’t disclose injuries. That’s not abnormal. And teams typically let the player make the decision whether to disclose an injury or not.

 

[bossram]

Which again begs the question why is he playing in the 4 Nations when critical rest time could be allocated? I'm referencing recent games not last year or October.

He's instinctively a good defensive player. I'm questioning his mental preparation that allows for optimal physical output. He hasn't matured much in this regard if some games he's got it and other's he doesn't. Again this goes back to pretty much 5 out of 7 seasons and he's been called out for it. You literally have Ray Ferraro saying in one game he looks good and another he looks barely a NHL player. There have been past precedent not just this year and then a week later he's good to go for Sweden in a fun tourney managing a crippling injury???

You don't know what was being conveyed and what wasn't. What choices were made by Pearson and Mikhayev and if the surgical staffs had much to do with our doctors and the recommendations vs mistakes and/or complications. I will definitely agree about not deserving benefit of the doubt but it's never black and white like some around here are acting.

EP40 has had mostly 4-4.5 months on his own to manage his own programs every summer. If he's hiring shit trainers that are unable to mange him through rehab plus training then he needs to find some that can. Again the CBA does not allow for team's to enforce much if anything during those times

If the tendonitis is to such a degree that it is still there, I don't think two weeks off would really solve it at this point. If the issue was more his offseason strength/conditioning training was compromised because of the tendonitis, then again, two weeks is not going to get you "in shape". Should he still skip the 4 Nations? Maybe. I just don't see it fixing anything. If the issue is more mental, perhaps being in a fun, more positive environment would help.

You don't know what brass or the medical team's choices were either. We know the results though, and there seemed to have been significant mismanagement of injuries. The constant is on the team side, not who else the players were consulting.

Has Petey been out of shape coming into camp most years? He's never looked this slow to start a season, so to me, that pretty plausibly indicates a physical limitation to his training last offseason.

 

[Grantham]

I am shocked that what most sane posters have been saying based on evidence was true…

Yeah I'm literally laughing at the triggered responses to this "revelation"

Read between the lines my peeps, this has been clear for months. Logic and wisdom are key

Also I don't blame the players at all... The coach and management downplaying injuries are the cause. "Tough guy" garbage

 

[AzNightmare]

Look at him go!!


Honestly... highlight of the 4 Nations for me is just to see what happens to Pettersson from the tournament, and post tournament.

 

[Hodgy]

You don't know what brass or the medical team's choices were either. We know the results though, and there seemed to have been significant mismanagement of injuries.

How do we know there was any significant mismanagement of the injury? Isn't it possible it was managed fine and that the injury just resulted in him having less power/speed for his skating? Isn't it possible the team gave Pettersson an off season training regime and he failed to execute it (i.e., why Allvin called him out in the public). It may be that the injury was mismanaged but I am failing to see what evidence there is of this.

The constant is on the team side, not who else the players were consulting.

But what's the standard here? Surely you are not expecting perfection, so its something less. Negligence would be a good standard, I think. But then you'd have to compare the Canucks medical staff to other medical practitioners at large, and other teams medical staff, and conclude that the Canucks medical staff were negligence. And how would you be in a position to even try this? I am assuming you lack the required medical training to even begin to make this assessment, and if you had it, you need to have a very good understanding of not only the Canucks medical staff but all of the other NHL teams' medical staff.

And the point isn't that the Canucks medical staff doesn't suck. Who knows, maybe it does. I just don't know why posters have such a conviction that it does suck notwithstanding that they are almost certainly in no position to provide any accurate judgment.

Has Petey been out of shape coming into camp most years? He's never looked this slow to start a season, so to me, that pretty plausibly indicates a physical limitation to his training last offseason.

I guess the obvious thing that change is that he got award 90 million dollars in guaranteed money.

But, with that said, I do agree that he has seemingly been a very dedicated player so I wouldn't have expected this.

 

[AzNightmare]

Pettersson has had slow starts before.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall 2020-21 and 2021-22 were both slow starts.
His season ended short in 2020-21 so small sample size. He was picking up steam a bit before he was out for the rest of the season due to injury.
2021-22 was bad the first half, then he started to play better in the 2nd half of the season.

IMO, that's his career in a nutshell... he goes through massive performance swings, and his sudden vanishing act has to now be seen as just who he is as a whole within a larger sample size.

And it has nothing to do with his paycheque. His performance suddenly dipped well before he signed that contract last year.

He does seem like a competitive guy though.

 

[bossram]

How do we know there was any significant mismanagement of the injury? Isn't it possible it was managed fine and that the injury just resulted in him having less power/speed for his skating? Isn't it possible the team gave Pettersson an off season training regime and he failed to execute it (i.e., why Allvin called him out in the public). It may be that the injury was mismanaged but I am failing to see what evidence there is of this.

With respect to "mismanagement", I was talking about the experience of other significant player injuries (i.e. Pearson, Mikheyev, Dickinson, terrible load on management on Demko), not specifically Petey. However, the outcomes for these players is some evidence that Petey's injury was managed poorly as well.

But what's the standard here? Surely you are not expecting perfection, so its something less. Negligence would be a good standard, I think. But then you'd have to compare the Canucks medical staff to other medical practitioners at large, and other teams medical staff, and conclude that the Canucks medical staff were negligence. And how would you be in a position to even try this? I am assuming you lack the required medical training to even begin to make this assessment, and if you had it, you need to have a very good understanding of not only the Canucks medical staff but all of the other NHL teams' medical staff.

And the point isn't that the Canucks medical staff doesn't suck. Who knows, maybe it does. I just don't know why posters have such a conviction that it does suck notwithstanding that they are almost certainly in no position to provide any accurate judgment.

Like I said already, I don't have any insider knowledge here. But multiple players before Petey had seemingly very questionable outcomes regarding how their various injuries were handled. Those are the only pieces of evidence any of us knows about and that's what I'm looking at. Like, they literally didn't know Dickinson had a broken hand. Tanner Pearson was jerked all around. Mikheyev was playing on a destroyed knee. The former two have spoken publicly that they think they were not treated properly, Seems bad.

I guess the obvious thing that change is that he got award 90 million dollars in guaranteed money.

But, with that said, I do agree that he has seemingly been a very dedicated player so I wouldn't have expected this.

I highly doubt the issue is that Petey is lazy and simple doesn't want to be prepared. For the most part, it seems he comes out of the gates pretty hot early in the season.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

Pettersson has had slow starts before.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall 2020-21 and 2021-22 were both slow starts.
His season ended short in 2020-21 so small sample size. He was picking up steam a bit before he was out for the rest of the season due to injury.
2021-22 was bad the first half, then he started to play better in the 2nd half of the season.

IMO, that's his career in a nutshell... he goes through massive performance swings, and his sudden vanishing act has to now be seen as just who he is as a whole within a larger sample size.

And it has nothing to do with his paycheque. His performance suddenly dipped well before he signed that contract last year.

He does seem like a competitive guy though.

He picked up some points right before missing the rest of the 20-21 season, and then again in 2nd half 21-22, but he was never actually playing well. Same problems as what can be seen now. Bad skating, not finishing plays and just falling down, refusal to shoot.

This isn't an isolated incident, the problems have always been there, and aren't getting better. Many recognized it, and warned against a big contract. At some point the numbers were going to start matching the eye test, and the result is looking like a 50 point season.

How quickly people forget that despite his points early last year, he was not playing well, and some of his worst games were October-December. The only month he actually looked like a star player, was January playing wing on the lotto line. He started playing like ass again, and the line was broken up shortly after.

The PDO stuff was real, and skewers his large sample size numbers. In real life, he's wildly inconsistent. Even during his big season, he looked as he does now on the PP. That guy that will pass up an open net, skate into double coverage and fall down, has always been there, in some capacity.

A bounce back for EP likely looks more like Huberdeau this season, than a 100p player. Think 30g 40-50 apples, and not able to handle the big matchups. In a league where the Ross winners are scoring 130+, it's a far cry from what was expected.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Irrelevant to how he is playing. If he is injured NOW he shouldnt be playing but he's playing at a tournament.

They want his NTC to kick in so he can dictate where he goes. Dump him for the best return and move on.

Except he isn't playing bad. In fact, defensively, he's been excellent. It's his offensive production that's fallen off a cliff.

And no would be team is acquiring him would without first knowing he wants to play for them. Dumping him for the "best return" is essentially killing off any chance of us being relevant. We might as well trade Hughes because we have no one close to his actual skill level nor will we get one back in a trade.

 

[F A N]

There is one key assumption that @Bleach Clean hasn’t proven: that management and Pettersson were not aligned on the severity of the injury. This, of course, may be true, but there isn’t any real evidence to suggest it is. The evidence being relied on is his poor performance (NHL edge numbers) but those are not evidence of causation but are evidence of his poor performance which is self evident. Moreover, the NHL edge numbers show he exhibited a 10% decline in his speed pre-injury.

That's fair. I've pretty maintained a position where I'm more interested in solutions than making some sort of declaration as to whether Petey was/is injured. For me, whether there is misalignment or not, Petey is a super expensive asset to not treat properly. Like the team backed up the truck for him, handed him the keys, and then criticized how he drives.

Brisson seems to be defending Pettersson’s off season training. And that seems to be where management and the Pettersson disagree (I.e., whether Pettersson could have trained better in the off season).

Which as I said is exactly what Petey himself said though. Like the first training camp interview Petey said he was fine but had to train around his knee injury.

 

[strattonius]

Except he isn't playing bad. In fact, defensively, he's been excellent. It's his offensive production that's fallen off a cliff.

And no would be team is acquiring him would without first knowing he wants to play for them. Dumping him for the "best return" is essentially killing off any chance of us being relevant. We might as well trade Hughes because we have no one close to his actual skill level nor will we get one back in a trade.

It's more than fair to say he's playing bad. He has played bad all year. He has outlier performances where he looks engaged and a difference maker but it's not enough.

I understand the best course of action is to let him find his game and get back to the player we know he is. A more focused off season will do wonders and I think he's learned a valuable lesson. I am absolutely team Petey. There is just no path forward for this core unless he figures it out - and I believe he will.

But saying he isn't playing bad because of his defensive awareness is outright denial. And really it's just the extremist version of bobby9 on the other side of the spectrum. No one should be satisfied or think EP40 has been good. And that criticism is fine as long as you understand a level of patience with this process.