Brisson confirms that EP40 dealt with injury which prevented him from Off-season Training.

[Hodgy]

You should just stop at "he may, of course, still have an injury".

I need to continually state this to you because you continually strawman my argument.

Dhaliwal doesn't change anything on that front by himself.

It's disingenuous to be biased toward Dhaliwal's information now when you dismissed him before as a rumour peddler. Same with Friedman.

This is another strawman from you. I didn’t dismiss Dhaliwal or Friedman because they were reporting rumours. I preferred evidence from a primary source which is rational. The fact that you don’t seem to understand this is troubling.

And then on top of that dismiss a primary source in Pettersson using his own words to refute the statement. You know this already.

Pettersson confirmed he was injured last season. And I have never dismissed this. He, as a primary source, hasn’t confirmed whether he continues to play injured. So there is no conflict of evidence in the instant matter which should be obvious.

I am glad that you are now running with rumours as legitimate information though. This is a good thing.

Again, another strawman.

A great thing would be for you to actually accurately present my arguments when responding to me. It’s not that difficult.

 

[Hodgy]

I mean we know that NHL players do not gain muscle throughout the season because it’s basically a cardio marathon. We hear all the time from NHL players that they workout like crazy in the offseason to prepare for the loss in strength that you get as part of the NHL grind.

If the root cause is lack of strength due to injury derailing his offseason training, then it’s super unrealistic to expect him to improve on it. There is just not enough downtime to do strength training to a degree that he actually gains strength. He would need to sit out for like 2 months.

Can you provide any examples of top 10-20 players in the NHL, who suffer an injury and they can’t train well in the off season, and they are still scoring at like half their usual rate FIVE MONTHS into the season?

Because lots of players need to rehab over the off season. This isn’t really unique.

Matthew Tkachuk had a broken sternum, and played late into June last season, and he’s got 57 points in 52 games. And his off season training was much shorter and likely more severely impacted by his injury.

Before this whole Pettersson debacle, I had never once ever heard, that a player who had poor off season training due to an injury, would need an entire season to return to form. It’s crazy, and absolutely ignores basically all evidence to the contrary.

 

[arttk]

Can you provide any examples of top 10-20 players in the NHL, who suffer an injury and they can’t train well in the off season, and they are still scoring at like half their usual rate FIVE MONTHS into the season?

WTF you do it, I ain’t doing shit just because you ask.

 

[settinguptheplay]

I mean we know that NHL players do not gain muscle throughout the season because it’s basically a cardio marathon. We hear all the time from NHL players that they workout like crazy in the offseason to prepare for the loss in strength that you get as part of the NHL grind.

If the root cause is lack of strength due to injury derailing his offseason training, then it’s super unrealistic to expect him to improve on it. There is just not enough downtime to do strength training to a degree that he actually gains strength. He would need to sit out for like 2 months.

This is my thought as well. He was injured (tendonitis) last year. Was probably told to rest over the summer. But Petey heard don't do anything till its better. So he sits around all summer till his leg muscles hit a point of atrophy. Came into camp looking like Bambi on skates. Caught an earful from his teammates and his confidence plummeted. I suspect the impact on him would be much greater than someone like Crosby who has tree trunks for legs. Petey has sticks at the best of times. With little chance to regain lost strength during the season his ability to rebound is rather small. He doesn't have the frame to hold a bunch of muscle to begin with.

We can only hope a full off season to rebuild strength and to recalibrate his mindset will do wonders. Anyone hoping for an in season rebound will likely be disappointed. He is lost in the weeds right now. Very hard to pull out of. The constant media pressure, whether we agree with it or not, is just adding fuel to the fire.

 

[BWW71]

Amazing how many people do mental gymnastics to blame everyone and everything beside the player that took the money and is running with it.

The Canucks will never win with Petterson! Debate it all you want but anyone that has ever played competitive sports should know it.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I need to continually state this to you because you continually strawman my argument.

This is another strawman from you. I didn’t dismiss Dhaliwal or Friedman because they were reporting rumours. I preferred evidence from a primary source which is rational. The fact that you don’t seem to understand this is troubling.

Pettersson confirmed he was injured last season. And I have never dismissed this. He, as a primary source, hasn’t confirmed whether he continues to play injured. So there is no conflict of evidence in the instant matter which should be obvious.

Again, another strawman.

A great thing would be for you to actually accurately present my arguments when responding to me. It’s not that difficult.

I have, you're just caught in flip-flopping on how you select for evidence. Example: Your use of rumours as legitimate sources now and not before.

You didn't take Pettersson at his word in the offseason either. You posited that because management had the gall to call him out for preparation, that they would not likely do this if he was injured (paraphrase). Then Brisson (another primary source right??) took the legs out from that argument.

Why don't you prefer Pettersson or Brisson as the primary source now? What happened? Is management the primary source now? Dhaliwal? When you figure it out, let me know.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Amazing how many people do mental gymnastics to blame everyone and everything beside the player that took the money and is running with it.

The Canucks will never win with Petterson! Debate it all you want but anyone that has ever played competitive sports should know it.

Everyone and their dog in 1995 knew you couldn’t win with Yzerman.

People sure do love being wrong.

 

[Jay26]

Thoughts?

I think it makes way more sense than him playing through an injury that is apparently serious enough to completely neuter him as an offensive player. This is a situation where people can't have their cake and eat it too. He has struggled so much for so long that it's either an injury he should not be playing through, or it's not a bad enough injury to explain what's been going on with him for a year now (+ the stretch at the end of Green's tenure after the bubble playoffs).

 

[Jay26]

I think this is the important thing. Someone else raised this point waaaaay back in this thread (or another one, I can't recall) and this is probably accurate just given the nature of being a pro hockey skatey-shooty guy.

I don't think there's an overarching debilitating medical condition or that Canucks medical staff are bordering on malpractice levels of incompetence.

I do think that he's probably been banged up here and there which hasn't helped, and that the larger issue is mental/attitude/testicular fortitude/whatever term you wanna use.

There was an article in the Province the other day where it seems like even the media are starting to tire of EP.

This is bang on. We can't deny there have been injuries, but injuries are not the whole picture. Not even close. You can tell when it's in a players head because you can distinguish between when a player is not doing things vs unable to do things.

 

[BWW71]

Everyone and their dog in 1995 knew you couldn’t win with Yzerman.

People sure do love being wrong.

So you went back 30 years to reference one of the best players of all time? Well you have me convinced!

 

[Canucker]

Except, EP did use that exact reason for his poor play last year? His poor play hasn't changed since.

The probable injury is a reason, not an excuse. The only ones framing it as an excuse are the ones that can't accept it as a possibility. Only one side is closing off that range... Without sufficient information to do so.

Sure, he did…but he also said his knee was fine when he came to camp. So we are to believe him when its a reason for his poor play but not when he says its fine?

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

So you went back 30 years to reference one of the best players of all time? Well you have me convinced!

My past reference is at least based in something other than opinion. It’s not supposed to apples for apples, it’s illustrating a point. I don’t have to convince you, you’ve already convinced yourself.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Sure, he did…but he also said his knee was fine when he came to camp. So we are to believe him when its a reason for his poor play but not when he says its fine?

Did you believe him when he said he was injured last year? (Well before camp)

If you did, then was that an excuse or a reason?

 

[Canucker]

Did you believe him when he said he was injured last year? (Well before camp)

If you did, then was that an excuse or a reason?

I usually take people at their word until I have reason not to…if he was injured, he’d have a reason for poor performance. This season I don’t believe he is injured.

 

[nowhereman]

My past reference is at least based in something other than opinion. It’s not supposed to apples for apples, it’s illustrating a point. I don’t have to convince you, you’ve already convinced yourself.

Except it's a terrible comparison. Yzerman was criticized for being an offense-only player who consistently put up tremendous, superstar-level numbers but couldn't will his team to playoff success and didnt play a strong enough two-way game. Pettersson is barely a top six player, at this point, and is consistently outperformed by players making a small fraction of his paycheque. How are the two situations even remotely comparable?

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Except it's a terrible comparison. Yzerman was criticized for being an offense-only player who consistently put up tremendous, superstar-level numbers but couldn't will his team to playoff success and didnt play a strong enough two-way game. Pettersson is barely a top six player, at this point, and is consistently outperformed by players making a small fraction of his paycheque. How are the two situations even remotely comparable?

Because if the better player can be that quick to be written off, why shouldn’t we try to learn from past mistakes? Especially needlessly chicken little ones?

 

[Bleach Clean]

I usually take people at their word until I have reason not to…if he was injured, he’d have a reason for poor performance. This season I don’t believe he is injured.

Ok so last year you believe he was injured because he said so. Check.

This year he said he had to train around the injury, and he said he's fine. His play is still poor.

Meaning, you have one statement contradicting two statements about his injury and his persistent poor play. This is enough to dismiss the possibility of injury this year.

Have I interpreted your position correctly?

 

[nowhereman]

Because if the better player can be that quick to be written off, why shouldn’t we try to learn from past mistakes? Especially needlessly chicken little ones?

Because there's a difference between writing off a 155 point offensive juggernaut who needs to tighten up their defensive game and a guy who is a complete non-factor the majority of the time he steps on the ice. There's also some irony in comparing Pettersson to a guy who led his team to multiple Stanley Cups, playing through an excruciating knee injury that essentially hobbled him and was something he dealt with for the majority of his career .

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

There's also some irony in comparing Pettersson to a guy who led his team to multiple Stanley Cups, playing through an excruciating knee injury that essentially hobbled him and was something he played through for the majority of his career .

There’s more irony in completely and deliberately missing the point.

In fact I shortened your post to max the irony for the less intellectually gifted to comprehend. I’m done talking to you about it. Agree to s disagree.

 

[Canucker]

Ok so last year you believe he was injured because he said so. Check.

This year he said he had to train around the injury, and he said he's fine. His play is still poor.

Meaning, you have one statement contradicting two statements about his injury and his persistent poor play. This is enough to dismiss the possibility of injury this year.

Have I interpreted your position correctly?

I’m not sure…He said he was injured last season, came to camp and said he felt good and his knee was fine…I believe both of those statements. What I believe I have to dismiss the claim of injury is the fact he’s still playing, played in the 4 Nations tourney when he could have taken time away and nobody with the team has made any claim of injury causing his poor play. Thats my position.

 

[GranvilleIsland]

Elias Pettersson excuse thread.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I’m not sure…He said he was injured last season, came to camp and said he felt good and his knee was fine…I believe both of those statements. What I believe I have to dismiss the claim of injury is the fact he’s still playing, played in the 4 Nations tourney when he could have taken time away and nobody with the team has made any claim of injury causing his poor play. Thats my position.

Pettersson said he was injured in the year end presser (well before camp this year). He still played while Injured. Had a terrible second half.

This year, he said he had to train around said injury, and he that he was fine. He has played poorly the majority of the year. (Just like the second half)

All statements taken together, the one that sticks out is "I'm fine". The two other statements and the consistently poor play contradict it.

If I have interpreted you correctly, you are taking the outlier statement to dismiss the possibility of injury. Is that logical?

 

[Canucker]

Pettersson said he was injured in the year end presser (well before camp this year). He still played while Injured. Had a terrible second half.

This year, he said he had to train around said injury, and he that he was fine. He has played poorly the majority of the year. (Just like the second half)

All statements taken together, the one that sticks out is "I'm fine". The two other statements and the consistently poor play contradict it.

If I have interpreted you correctly, you are taking the outlier statement to dismiss the possibility of injury. Is that logical?

I don’t believe his statement is an “outlier”…and just because he played injured and played poorly last season, isn’t a reason to believe he’s just doing it again this year…one would think they wouldn’t want to continue down the same bad road as last season…you know, the “definition of insanity”and all.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I don’t believe his statement is an “outlier”…and just because he played injured and played poorly last season, isn’t a reason to believe he’s just doing it again this year…one would think they wouldn’t want to continue down the same bad road as last season…you know, the “definition of insanity”and all.

What has changed in his play across the two years?

"I'm fine" is the outlier statement. Both the year end presser and his return statement confirm the presence of injury, even if he thought he could overcome it. His continued play, however, suggests otherwise.

To put it all on that one statement...

 

[PavelBure10]

At this point I think a trade would be best for all parties. Pettersson may come back as a player, but I don't think it will be with the Canucks. After tonight's game there is evidence that he is dogging it out there.