Brian Rafalski was more important to the Devils than Niedermayer in the years they overlapped............okay, fight me!

[Brodeur]

I can support this thesis - I think Rafalski gave the Devils exactly what they lacked.

If anyone wants yet another reason to pile on me, I also really liked how Vladimir Malakhov looked with the Devils.

Rafalski was a big addition, aside from his offensive skill he was a much needed RHD back when Lyle Odelein was the only other one on the roster. In those days, LD/RD wasn't as strict but it was a common critique when the Devils had their post-1995 playoff disappointments. There were rumors back then that they tried to get Boris Mironov to fill that void. I don't think the Devils make it to the SCF three times in that span without Rafalski.

Rafalski was a more natural PPQB than Niedermayer. Nied's play was just more subtle. Rafalski would put up more points, Stevens would make more thunderous hits, but Niedermayer would lead the team in ice time but in an inconspicuous manner. Niedermayer's game was tough to appreciate if you were judging from the box scores or highlights.

Just to reiterate, Craig Button did a podcast a few years back and he was talking about the 2000 run when he was still with Dallas. He said the coaching staff (Ken Hitchcock was Niedermayer's junior coach coincidentally) was more concerned with how to forecheck Niedermayer's pairing than Stevens/Rafalski. Button said something to the effect of "we couldn't figure out an answer."

I'm curious to see how Jake Sanderson does as a pro since he was doing some Niedermayer-esque stuff in college in terms of using his skating to diffuse forechecks. Thomas Chabot will probably continue to pile up points on PP1 like Rafalski, but Sanderson may end up getting the more difficult even strength minutes.

---------------------

Malakhov was such a luxury for the 2000 run. Lou tried to get him back in 2004 with Stevens injured but the Rangers refused to deal him to the Devils. Malakhov ended up playing really well for the Flyers who knocked us out in the first round. Unfortunately that led to Lou signing Malakhov in 2005 when Niedermayer left. Malakhov's tools were tremendous: 6'4 who could skate, play physical, and had offensive skill. But he seemingly had an on/off switch.

 

[MS]

Rafalski was a great Devil but he also was regualrly paired with Stevens.

Having watched almost every game these 2 played as Devils I can tell, Niedermayer was better in every zone, he made every play look absolutely effortless.

The amount of disrespect Niedermayer get on these boards is nothing short of spectacular. You'd think the was just an average 3-4 defenseman that most teams have a couple of

I don't think many people think that.

His career through age 30 was basically the same as Jay Bouwmeester except on a good team. A brilliant skater who would generally have been ranked somewhere in the #10-15 range of NHL defenders but was considered somewhat disappointing relative to early hype and draft position. A bit better than Darryl Sydor who was also in that 10-15 range for most of the late 1990s.

I think most people would recognize that his late-career push might put him inside the top 20 defenders of all time and maybe on the bottom end of the top 100 players.

But when you see ratings like a respected journalist in Ken Campbell putting him as the #4 defender of all time ahead of Bourque and Potvin ... it's just insanity, and there is going to be a reaction to that.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

I don't think many people think that.

His career through age 30 was basically the same as Jay Bouwmeester except on a good team. A brilliant skater who would generally have been ranked somewhere in the #10-15 range of NHL defenders but was considered somewhat disappointing relative to early hype and draft position. A bit better than Darryl Sydor who was also in that 10-15 range for most of the late 1990s.

I think most people would recognize that his late-career push might put him inside the top 20 defenders of all time and maybe on the bottom end of the top 100 players.

But when you see ratings like a respected journalist in Ken Campbell putting him as the #4 defender of all time ahead of Bourque and Potvin ... it's just insanity, and there is going to be a reaction to that.

I don't know anyone who thinks Ken Campbell is a respected journalist, but Niedermayer is a lot closer to Bourque and Potvin than he is to Sydor, he was just overshadowed by being on the same team as Stevens

I also think playing in NJ really hurt his overall perception, not just because of the style of play but because even when they were winning, nobody was watching. I'd be surprised if many posters on this board have watched him play more than 10-15 regular season games in his entire career, most people only watched him if they happened to be playing their favorite team and in the playoffs.

Even Stevens, people here think all he did was throw hits, people have no idea how good he was in the offensive zone, as he was overshadowed by playing at the same time as Bourque

Heck even Rafalski was relatively unknown until he went to Detroit.

 

[vikash1987]

@Brodeur mentioned ice time. During the 1999-00 season, Niedermayer led the Devils in ice time in 42 games. (Stevens was the leader in the other 40). And during the 2000 playoffs:

Florida series
1. Stevens 26:21
2. Niedermayer 25:17
3. Rafalski 21:46

Toronto series
1. Niedermayer 24:32
2. Stevens 23:47
3. Rafalski 20:52

Philly series
1. Stevens 23:44
2. Niedermayer 23:25
3. Rafalski 19:36

Dallas series
1. Niedermayer 28:52
2. Stevens 28:26
3. Rafalski 23:52

What's the pattern? Clearly, Stevens and Niedermayer were the consistent leaders in ice time, followed by a drop off to Rafalski at 3rd.

This, of course, is just one indicator---and I'd have to double-check the other seasons. But it does tend to support the position, held by Ken Daneyko and plenty of others in the know, that Stevens and Niedermayer were the two keys.

EDIT: the pattern holds for 2001-04 in the playoffs, where Niedermayer led in ice time in 8 of 10 more playoff series, and in a couple cases, the gap with Rafalski was as much as 5 mins. (see below)

 

[MadLuke]

A little off topic but this thread reminded me of this atrocious top 100 all time list by the Hockey News' Ken Campbell. He put Niedermayer at #19 ahead of guys like Bourque, Shore, and Potvin.

Seem internally coherent to me and not that bad either.

Jagr has 1921 points in the NHL regular seasons over 2200 in top professional leagues.

I would like to hear his Beliveau > Howe (I imagine the 10 cups would be mostly it here).

It is not the top 100 at playing hockey for sure, much more a top 100 career in the nhl angle (while seeming to consider the very close to nhl part of their career has well), with winning a lot/longevity heavily weighted, that put the Niedermayer/Brodeur/Beliveau really high because of it.

 

[shadow1]

I can't say I agree. I think New Jersey's defense would've crumpled without Niedermayer, but we know they could be elite without Rafalski (because they were before he arrived on the scene).

The pendulum is definitely swinging; Niedermayer has somehow gone from overrated to underrated the last few years, IMO.

He wasn't, IMO.

To me he's the ultimate coattail rider, he was lucky to spend his career next to Stevens and Pronger. Not to say he wasnt a good player, but good god his media overrating is beyond epic

Niedermayer played with Ken Daneyko in New Jersey and Francois Beachemin in Anaheim. By comparison, Rafalaski played with Stevens almost his entire time in New Jersey, and then Nick Lidstrom his entire time in Detroit.

 

[Brodeur]

And just for the walk down memory lane, here are the approximate PP units during that time. Niedermayer's production took a hit once he lost PP ice time to Rafalski. Then it rebounded a bit once he got PP1 time again. The Devils PP was better than I would have guessed in the couple seasons preceding Rafalski's arrival.

1997-98: Devils (18.9% - 2nd in NHL)
PP1: Gilmour-Holik-Sykora-Arnott-Niedermayer
PP2: Andreychuk-Elias-[MacLean/Rolston]-Bodger-(Niedermayer/Odelein)

Niedermayer led the team with 4:53 in PP/game and seemingly looks like he played the full PP on a lot of occasions. Also funny seeing Bill Guerin and Brian Rolston barely getting any PP time; Guerin was disgruntled because of this and requested a trade that eventually netted Jason Arnott.

1998-99: Devils (19.7% - 4th in NHL)
PP1: Elias-Holik-Sykora-Arnott-Niedermayer
PP2: Andreychuk-Morrison-McKay-Rolston-(Niedermayer/Odelein)

Interesting to see that Niedermayer (4:09 per game) a full minute more per game than the next Devil (Sykora at 3:01).

Niedermayer: 46 points in 72 games (.639 per/game)

1999-00: Devils (20.1% - 3rd in NHL)
PP1: Elias-Holik-Sykora-Arnott-Rafalski
PP2: Lemieux-Gomez-[Morrison/Mogilny]-[Stevens/Malakhov]-Niedermayer

Looks like Niedermayer started on the top unit and eventually got usurped by Rafalski.

Niedermayer: 38 points in 71 games (.535)
Rafalski: 32 points in 75 games (.427)

2000-01: Devils (22.9% - 1st in NHL)
PP1: Elias-Holik-Sykora-Arnott-Rafalski
PP2: McKay-Gomez-Mogilny-Stevens-Niedermayer

Full year of Mogilny meant that 2nd unit was pretty good. Niedermayer held out for the first ~20 games of the season due to a contract dispute.

Niedermayer: 35 points in 57 games (.614)
Rafalski: 52 points in 78 games (.667)

2001-02: Devils (16.9% - 9th in NHL)
PP1: Elias-Holik-Sykora-Arnott-Rafalski
PP2: McKay-Gomez-Brylin-Zyuzin?-Niedermayer

Hit a slump, partially with Mogilny leaving via free agency. Also some fatigue from two deep runs + Olympics. Mix in some salary disputes and there were off ice ego things dragging the team down.

Niedermayer: 33 points in 76 games (.434)
Rafalski: 47 points in 76 games (.618)

2002-03: Devils (11.9% - 30th in NHL)
PP1: Elias-Gomez-[Marshall/Brylin]-Rafalski-Niedermayer
PP2: Friesen-Nieuwendyk-Langenbrunner-Stevens-Tverdovsky

Sobering going from the best PP in 2000-01 to the worst in just two seasons. Elias/Gomez were like oil and water for most the year. The Nieuwendyk line was used as PP1 with Rafalski/Niedermayer at times.

Niedermayer: 39 points in 81 games (.481)
Rafalski: 40 points in 79 games (.506)

2003-04: Devils (16.4% - 15th in NHL)
PP1: Elias-Gomez-[Brylin/Gionta]-Rafalski-Niedermayer
PP2: Friesen-[Larionov/Kozlov]-Langenbrunner-Stevens-Martin

Niedermayer: 54 points in 81 games (.667)
Rafalski: 36 points in 69 games (.522)

Funny to look back and see that Brian Gionta had zero PP goals that season but started to get PP time later. Elias/Gomez started to gel finally.

 

[vikash1987]

Just to reiterate, Craig Button did a podcast a few years back and he was talking about the 2000 run when he was still with Dallas. He said the coaching staff (Ken Hitchcock was Niedermayer's junior coach coincidentally) was more concerned with how to forecheck Niedermayer's pairing than Stevens/Rafalski. Button said something to the effect of "we couldn't figure out an answer."

This is spot on. Niedermayer was the Devil who kept the Stars' coaching staff up at night: he could throw many different moves at you, and he was highly unpredictable. And Hitchcock was one to know, as you say.

Barry Melrose said this prior to the 2000 Finals: "Scott Stevens....he's the physical leader, he's the emotional leader....but I think the key to this series for the Devils is Niedermayer. He had a great series in '95 when they won the Stanley Cup.....I think he is the dark horse. We know what Stevens is gonna give us; we don't know what Niedermayer's gonna give us...."

 

[Big Phil]

The popular story with Niedermayer is that the Devils kept him from achieving his offensive potential. So it's thought he would have had much higher point totals in other systems.

In 1998 when Niedermayer was having a good season there was an article in The Hockey News about him. The talk was the Devils - and Lemaire - were holding him back. I know I thought maybe they were at the time too. In the article I can remember it saying how Lemaire encourages Niedermayer to join the rush MORE. Niedermayer himself in the article said "I play my own game". Honestly, I just think he didn't push himself in those years. That's my thought. He probably could have been his 2004, 2006 and 2007 versions if he had tried, but he never was.

Some Ducks fans will crucify me for this, but I didn’t find Niedermayer that impressive when he played. I preferred Pronger over him.

I’m still confused as to why he got his jersey retired when he wasn’t even there for a long period of time

Most take Pronger over Niedermayer. Even as a Duck.

A little off topic but this thread reminded me of this atrocious top 100 all time list by the Hockey News' Ken Campbell. He put Niedermayer at #19 ahead of guys like Bourque, Shore, and Potvin.

Ken Campbell ranks the Top 100 NHL players of all time

The NHL is releasing its list of Top 100 players on Friday night, but won't actually rank them in order. So THN's Ken Campbell did.

www.google.com

Yeah, well, Ken Campbell. These guys at THN aren't like they used to be.

I can also remember in 2007 when Niedermayer briefly retired Pierre McGuire on TSN talking about how he is a top 7 defenseman of all-time. I sort of chuckled, and then I looked at the ones he had ahead of him and I was like "Wait a minute...............he's not joking." I think it was Coffey, Chelios, Robinson, Shore among others BEHIND him. Huh? It was mind boggling.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Niedermayer would have had a slight edge - based mainly on his 1997-98 season which was a pretty big outlier in his career pre-2003 breakout - but it wasn't a huge difference.

Sydor's best Norris finishes were 7th and 11th, Niedermayer was 5th and 12th. Niedermayer's best offensive seasons were 57 and 46 points, Sydor's were 48 and 48. They played the same role for elite teams, were nearly the same age, and were even junior teammates.

I remember a bunch of talk in the 2000 Finals about how these players were basically bookends for their respective teams.

i don’t like this comp at all

both were middle pair d behind an all-world defensive top pair on defence-prioritizing teams. but sydor was the #4 on those dallas teams and paired with a player better than him, zubov. niedermayer was the #2 on nj and was the main guy on his pairing, with daneyko. we’re talking about a 23-25 minute dman vs a 20-23 minute one. as far back as we have the data, 1999, niedermayer’s outlier lowest icetime is still higher than sydor’s equally outlying highest.

by the time rafalski got to nj, niedermayer was #1 in icetime over stevens as often as he wa #2 behind him. sydor was never even #3 above matvichuk.

and re the thread’s premise, niedermayer also always played heavier minutes than rafalski, and often by very large margins.

back to sydor, they had the same rookie year but nieds was a year younger. niedermayer scored ten more pts and made the all-rookie team. my memory is early on, sydor was a bottom pair who got PP time. my sense is even as early as the 94 run niedermayer was a more important player, but i’ll defer to the nj fans here.

 

[mrhockey193195]

i don’t like this comp at all

both were middle pair d behind an all-world defensive top pair on defence-prioritizing teams. but sydor was the #4 on those dallas teams and paired with a player better than him, zubov. niedermayer was the #2 on nj and was the main guy on his pairing, with daneyko. we’re talking about a 23-25 minute dman vs a 20-23 minute one. as far back as we have the data, 1999, niedermayer’s outlier lowest icetime is still higher than sydor’s equally outlying highest.

by the time rafalski got to nj, niedermayer was #1 in icetime over stevens as often as he wa #2 behind him. sydor was never even #3 above matvichuk.

and re the thread’s premise, niedermayer also always played heavier minutes than rafalski, and often by very large margins.

back to sydor, they had the same rookie year but nieds was a year younger. niedermayer scored ten more pts and made the all-rookie team. my memory is early on, sydor was a bottom pair who got PP time. my sense is even as early as the 94 run niedermayer was a more important player, but i’ll defer to the nj fans here.

Your point is well taken, but just to nit-pick: Sydor was easily the #3 behind Hatcher and Zubov. Matvichuk would have been the #4, despite being on the 1st pair with Hatcher.

I don't think the comparison is too off base, but I do agree that Niedermayer was a slightly higher stature than Sydor in the late 90s. That being said, I think Niedermayer was in that second tier of defensemen - and honestly, probably towards the bottom - which included Desjardins, Numminen, Hatcher, Zubov, Foote, Svehla, Kenny Jonsson, and a few others.

He ascended into the top tier after the 2003 regular season and stayed there for maybe 4 or 5 seasons? And even then, he was not at the level of Lidstrom or Pronger. Which makes the assertion that he's a top 40 defenseman of all time pretty baffling. Great peak, but not legendary, and the peak was quite short compared to other greats of the game. It's no insult to say he's a HOFer but did not accomplish the same amount as Stevens, Leetch, MacInnis, Pronger, Chara - all of whom are in the 15-40 range or so - let alone Chelios, Coffey, Lidstrom, etc. who are top 15 of all time.

Rafalski and Niedermayer had different strengths, and Rafalski filled a specific role on that d-corps (puck moving D, PP QB), but I think Niedermayer at the time was, again, slightly held in higher regard. Part of that too may have been underrating just how good Rafalski was and would become, part of that may have been overrating Niedermayer's actual contributions at the time and obsessing over his unreached potential, but I think the vast majority of the hockey world still takes Niedermayer over Rafalski in 2001.

 

[vikash1987]

In 1998 when Niedermayer was having a good season there was an article in The Hockey News about him. The talk was the Devils - and Lemaire - were holding him back. I know I thought maybe they were at the time too. In the article I can remember it saying how Lemaire encourages Niedermayer to join the rush MORE. Niedermayer himself in the article said "I play my own game". Honestly, I just think he didn't push himself in those years. That's my thought. He probably could have been his 2004, 2006 and 2007 versions if he had tried, but he never was.

The point, though, is that Lemaire's defense-first system DID hold Niedermayer back earlier on, and there was often confusion over when and where Niedermayer was supposed to have the green light to join the offensive rush. The lack of offensive production was largely a function of just that.

As far as '97-'98 goes, there's no question that Niedermayer "leveled up" compared to prior seasons, but what's often forgotten is that Niedermayer had a potent offensive outlet for the first time in the form of Gilmour. Those two combined on 1/3 of Niedermayer's points that year (it would've been more had Gilmour not gone down with injury). Prior to that, the Devils never had an offensive, impact star at center ice, and Niedermayer was often carrying the puck and transitioning/skating without that impact center.

This, of course, has little to do with the topic of Niedermayer and Rafalski (2000-04)

 

[DRW895]

Niedermayer was very overratted player. Except 2003 postseason and 2003/04 regular he never was really key defenceman for his team. Bruce Driver is above him in points per game for Devils. Aint it funny?

 

[Big Phil]

The point, though, is that Lemaire's defense-first system DID hold Niedermayer back earlier on, and there was often confusion over when and where Niedermayer was supposed to have the green light to join the offensive rush. The lack of offensive production was largely a function of just that.

As far as '97-'98 goes, there's no question that Niedermayer "leveled up" compared to prior seasons, but what's often forgotten is that Niedermayer had a potent offensive outlet for the first time in the form of Gilmour. Those two combined on 1/3 of Niedermayer's points that year (it would've been more had Gilmour not gone down with injury). Prior to that, the Devils never had an offensive, impact star at center ice, and Niedermayer was often carrying the puck and transitioning/skating without that impact center.

This, of course, has little to do with the topic of Niedermayer and Rafalski (2000-04)

But Lemaire was fired by 1998. Niedermayer still didn't flourish. Not under the friendly confines of Robinson as coach either. He just seemed to have this self-inflicted way of holding himself back.

Niedermayer was very overratted player. Except 2003 postseason and 2003/04 regular he never was really key defenceman fir his team. Bruce Driver is above him in points per game for Devils. Aint it funny?

A bit, yeah. A little higher scoring era though to be fair if we are to compare.

 

[NigerianNightmare]

Ken Daneyko was equally important as an unsung hero for that team

 

[vikash1987]

But Lemaire was fired by 1998. Niedermayer still didn't flourish. Not under the friendly confines of Robinson as coach either. He just seemed to have this self-inflicted way of holding himself back.

Are you talking about offensive production? Niedermayer averaged 0.41 even strength pts. per game in '99-'00, eclipsed only by Lidstrom, Pronger and Gonchar among d-men in the league; and he averaged 0.42 even-strength pts. per game in '00-'01, eclipsed only by Leetch and Blake among d-men. He seemed to be "flourishing" just fine under Robinson (and Fetisov, who handled the defense).

Remember: the Devils were consistently dead last in the league in PP opportunities, and, when Rafalski came into the picture, Niedermayer's PP minutes eventually got re-balanced. Niedermayer was so valuable because of his presence in all situations, and in all three zones. In terms of transitioning the puck out of the D zone, and getting his team out of trouble, few were better (Rafalski included)

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Your point is well taken, but just to nit-pick: Sydor was easily the #3 behind Hatcher and Zubov. Matvichuk would have been the #4, despite being on the 1st pair with Hatcher.

I don't think the comparison is too off base, but I do agree that Niedermayer was a slightly higher stature than Sydor in the late 90s. That being said, I think Niedermayer was in that second tier of defensemen - and honestly, probably towards the bottom - which included Desjardins, Numminen, Hatcher, Zubov, Foote, Svehla, Kenny Jonsson, and a few others.

in icetime, sydor was the consistent #4, but if you want to argue that under a coach that wasn’t hitchcock he could have been the #3 i wouldn’t argue with that.

and i agree that if we are talking about 98-02 niedermayer he is not an elite guy, i def would agree with that too.

the clear top guys are lidstrom, pronger, and blake.

then desjardins, hatcher, zubov, gonchar, ozolinsh, foote, and maybe a few others.

niedermayer is somewhere near the top of the third tier, and i think guys like jonsson and svehla are definitely his peers, along with hamrlik and aucoin, off the top of my head. but he’s certainly ahead of sydor. i mean at the end of the day we are talking about a discrepancy of 2+ minutes a game every year and both guys played on contenders.

 

[Admiral Awesome]

Rob Niedermayer never played with Rafalski though.

 

[Big Phil]

Are you talking about offensive production? Niedermayer averaged 0.41 even strength pts. per game in '99-'00, eclipsed only by Lidstrom, Pronger and Gonchar among d-men in the league; and he averaged 0.42 even-strength pts. per game in '00-'01, eclipsed only by Leetch and Blake among d-men. He seemed to be "flourishing" just fine under Robinson (and Fetisov, who handled the defense).

Remember: the Devils were consistently dead last in the league in PP opportunities, and, when Rafalski came into the picture, Niedermayer's PP minutes eventually got re-balanced. Niedermayer was so valuable because of his presence in all situations, and in all three zones. In terms of transitioning the puck out of the D zone, and getting his team out of trouble, few were better (Rafalski included)

So why don't you think Niedermayer was given PP time? To me, I think it is because Rafalski was better offensively. I don't think it is a myth that Niedermayer was a bit of a letdown in his career early on. His Norris voting record (or lack of it) prior to 2004 wasn't pretty at all. This isn't to say he wasn't valuable, no one says that about him, not even his pre-2003 days, but I think he didn't live up to his potential early on.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

to me what’s interesting about those nj teams is why couldn’t rafalski and niedermayer coexist on the top pp unit before 2003? and what was it that made it work eventually?

it’s maybe like, why were elias and gomez so bad together for most of the 2003 season but so phenomenal together in 2004 and post-lockout?

or perhaps more directly, in vancouver right now, our best two offensive dmen by far are both LHDs: quinn hughes and oliver ekman-larsson. they even have complementary skillsers: one is an elite passer, line-holder, and dancer on the blueline, but shoots like me when i was twelve, while the other has a still near-elite ability to get pucks through from the point. but they don’t gel so you can only play one of them at a time on the top unit. if our coaching staff has any sense, they’ll spend all summer at the drawing board figuring out how thosw two can work together.

 

[Brodeur]

to me what’s interesting about those nj teams is why couldn’t rafalski and niedermayer coexist on the top pp unit before 2003? and what was it that made it work eventually?

We were just that deep back in those years. Even before Rafalski, the Devils had a top 5 PP unit. Arnott and Sykora were one time options with booming shots. Elias naturally was on the top unit as well.

Most people only remember Holik for his bad free agent contract, but he filled a specific role on the PP. He was usually close to 60% faceoff wins and he'd park his 6'4 230 pound frame in front of the goalie or help retrieve loose pucks along the wall. Holik had enough skill to not be a complete waste of a spot as well. Holik felt a little disrespected since he thought his presence opened up more ice for the skill guys to do their thing. Maybe partly the reason the Devils PP went from a top unit to worst unit by 2003.

Rafalski was just a more natural PPQB to distribute the puck to the big shots. Niedermayer was always more of a rover.

Along with Holik leaving for free agency, Arnott and Sykora were both traded in 2002. There was probably hope that their return (Nieuwendyk+Langenbrunner, Friesen+Tverdovsky) might fit on the PP but Niedermayer ended up being the better option.

 

[vikash1987]

So why don't you think Niedermayer was given PP time? To me, I think it is because Rafalski was better offensively. I don't think it is a myth that Niedermayer was a bit of a letdown in his career early on. His Norris voting record (or lack of it) prior to 2004 wasn't pretty at all. This isn't to say he wasn't valuable, no one says that about him, not even his pre-2003 days, but I think he didn't live up to his potential early on.

I never said Niedermayer wasn't given PP time. I said his PP time was re-balanced. Rafalski simply offered a different look on the PP: he was more of a QB (and he was a right-handed shot), whereas Niedermayer was more of a roving/rushing d-man. Different rhythm.

The Devils had the luxury of spreading out the minutes when Rafalski came in, though they didn't have the luxury of having an inordinate amount of PP time overall.

 

[wetcoast]

I think Niedermayer generally played more higher-leverage minutes, but it's but it's definitely closer than the common perception.

It remains fascinating how Scott Niedermayer had a very comparable career to Darryl Sydor until just before his 30th birthday and then had a great 2003 playoffs followed by 3 elite seasons before his first retirement ... and that somehow elevated him in the minds of most to one of the greatest defensemen in hockey history.

Nieds played really heavy Minutes for New Jersey over that time period and coaches usually don't play worse players that much do they?

There is a reason Rafalski has 3 times been 9th place in Norris voting as he was a very good complimentary Dman but never really the top dog.

 

[Stephen]

Feels like Niedermayer could have shone much brighter as an offensive defenseman as more of the primary superstar on another team. This goal in the 1995 finals on an end to end rush where Lidstrom and Coffey were both on the victim side was such a coming out party for Niedermayer. And even though the Devils went on to win the cup that year and was one of the best teams of that era, Niedermayer seemed to fall back into the team concept.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

So I have a question, and maybe this needs its own thread. But why were the Devils so committed to the trap? Not looking to troll Islanders fans, but I feel like the reason they've played their ultra defensive style the last couple of years is a lack of high end talent and them maximizing their roster. But with guys like Nidermayer and Rafalski and some underrated forwards like the A line guys and even Mogilny, why did the Devils choose to go super defensive? Their D was good enough on its own to shut teams down, wasn't it? And they had the scoring talent to score. And oh yeah they had some guy named Brodeur.