Breaking the Union

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PecaFan

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Nov 16, 2002
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I think you're wrong. The court system doesn't convict him, then remove it from his record after a year. It's done the opposite way, he's not convicted, he's discharged, if he violates the terms then he has to appear again, and then he'd be convicted. The word convicted was only ever used in the press in the conditional "Bertuzzi got a discharge, if he *had* been convicted he could have got 18 months", etc.

The court also specifically made reference to international travel requirements of his job, and a discharge was made specifically so as to *not* interfere with that.

Regardless, even if I'm wrong and it is a conviction, this case still fails all the other stuff I pointed out. It was a complete waste of time and money.
 

Wetcoaster

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PecaFan said:
I think you're wrong. The court system doesn't convict him, then remove it from his record after a year. It's done the opposite way, he's not convicted, he's discharged, if he violates the terms then he has to appear again, and then he'd be convicted. The word convicted was only ever used in the press in the conditional "Bertuzzi got a discharge, if he *had* been convicted he could have got 18 months", etc.

The court also specifically made reference to international travel requirements of his job, and a discharge was made specifically so as to *not* interfere with that.

Regardless, even if I'm wrong and it is a conviction, this case still fails all the other stuff I pointed out. It was a complete waste of time and money.

And your law degree and experience with immigration matters is from where exactly?

Bertuzzi is criminally inadmissible to the US because of his conviction. He may be eligible for a waiver unless the US deems him an aggravated felon, in which case he is barred from the US for 20 years and there are no discrtionary remedies available to him.

It is your opinion that it was a waste of time and money. Other informed opinions held are different than yours.
 

PecaFan

Registered User
Nov 16, 2002
9,243
521
Ottawa (Go 'Nucks)
Wetcoaster said:
And your law degree and experience with immigration matters is from where exactly?

Bertuzzi is criminally inadmissible to the US because of his conviction. He may be eligible for a waiver unless the US deems him an aggravated felon, in which case he is barred from the US for 20 years and there are no discrtionary remedies available to him.

It is your opinion that it was a waste of time and money. Other informed opinions held are different than yours.

My "law degree" comes from reading the actual text of the decision. Section 47 specifically states that since his occupation requires international travel, a discharge is in his best interest. It's extremely clear that one of the main reasons for doing the discharge was to allow him to travel.

Bertuzzi will have no troubles travelling to the US.

As for the waste of time and money, the only people that have benefitted from this case are the lawyers. The general public hasn't been served, and Steve Moore certainly doesn't feel served.

Care to show just what benefits came out of this, to prove it wasn't a waste?
 

Wetcoaster

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PecaFan said:
My "law degree" comes from reading the actual text of the decision. Section 47 specifically states that since his occupation requires international travel, a discharge is in his best interest. It's extremely clear that one of the main reasons for doing the discharge was to allow him to travel.

Bertuzzi will have no troubles travelling to the US.

As for the waste of time and money, the only people that have benefitted from this case are the lawyers. The general public hasn't been served, and Steve Moore certainly doesn't feel served.

Care to show just what benefits came out of this, to prove it wasn't a waste?

Being as judges are overturned all the time on appeal on matters of Canadian law, it is not surprising the judge would be wrong on matters of US law. That is not the law- at least not the law the Bertuzzi will have to deal with. I have set out the applicable law below.

In numerous cases over the years the US implications of Canadian convictions and pleas have not been properly considered or evaluated by counsel. This is a very technical and complex area and not surprising since canadian lawyers often get the Caandian immigration implications wrong.

SportsNet had a US immigration lawyer on who stated that Bertuzzi is criminally inadmissible under US immigration law. He pointed out that with recent amendements to US law it is not easy to obtain some form of waiver or discetionary relief for crimes of violence any longer. CBC also noted that Bertuzzi would be facing US immigration problems.

The US immigration law is clear that Bertuzzi is inadmissible for his conviction under US INA 212(a)(2)(A)(ii) since it is a crime of moral turpitude and it carries a maximum potential sentence in excess of one year (in this case 18 months maximum for ABH when charged summarily).

An important element of moral turpitude is mens rea. Evil intent must be present in order for a crime to be one of moral turpitude. There can be no strict liability offenses that equate to crimes of moral turpitude. In general, most acts involving fraud fall within the parameters of crimes of moral turpitude. Examples of crimes of moral turpitude include: assault with intent to commit ****; assault with intent to commit serious bodily harm; assault with a dangerous or deadly weapon; contributing to the delinquency of a minor; gross indecency; kidnapping, and prostitution. Interestingly, there are a number of crimes that have been held not to be crimes of moral turpitude. For example, impaired driving, firearms violations, immigration violations and simple assault.

Situations that do not give rise to inadmissibility to the United States should be noted carefully. If an individual has been convicted of, or admits to having committed, a single crime of "moral turpitude", and the crime carries no more than a maximum penalty of one year, and the person is actually sentenced to less than six months in prison, the person is not inadmissible and may enter the United States without prior permission. For most purposes, this means that a person convicted in Canada of a single summary conviction offense (or a hybrid offense where the Crown has proceeded summarily) is admissible; but be cautious about the new summary conviction offences which provide for an eighteen month sentence.

Conclusion
In conclusion, criminal lawyers should be very careful when advising a client about the potential consequences of Canadian criminal proceedings on the client’s ability to enter the United States.
http://www.criminallawyers.ca/newslett/19-4/segal.htm

It is that potential 18 month sentence (even though no jail time was imposed) that catches Bertuzzi. The conditional discharge is meaningless for the purpose of US immigration law.

He will have difficulties with US immigration authorities because pleading to ABH makes him criminally inadmissible under the crimes involving moral turpitude AND aggravated felony provisions of US immigration laws. The fact it is a conditional discharge matters not since he admitted guilt (the plea) and he was in fact convicted. US law does not recognize the subsequent discharge (or even a Canadian pardon for that matter). While he will not have a criminal record for the purposes of Canadian law after he satisfies his conditions, he does have a conviction for the purposes of US immigration law.

This is most problematical since there is very little discretion to waive the inadmissibility if you are an aggravated felon. As an aggravated felon a person is prohibited from applying to enter the US as a visitor or immigrant for a period of 20 years after termination of any sentence.

The problem is that as an aggravated felon the usual waiver of criminal inadmissibility procedure is not available and since he is outside of the US the "withholding of deportation" option is not available. Aggravated felons are inadmissible to the US for 20 years following termination of any sentence.

In the case of Matter of Soriano, the US AG held that the bar to waiver relief available under Immigration and Nationality Act section 212(c) mandated by the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 (AEDPA) must be applied. According to the law if you are an aggravated felon you are barred from seeking a waiver of your criminal inadmissibility.

However, the passage of the Immigration Act of 1990 (IMMACT 90)2 had a profound effect on aliens convicted of aggravated felonies. IMMACT 90 limited discretionary reliefs such as 212(c) waiver, suspension of deportation, voluntary departure, asylum, and withholding of deportation for aliens convicted of aggravated felonies. Moreover, the number of years of the sentence were factored into the definition of an aggravated felony. Four years later, the definition was again revised with the advent of Immigration and Nationality Technical Correction Act of 1994 (INTCA).3 The distinct feature of INTCA was the expansion of aggravated felonies to include common, less serious crimes such as fraud, burglary, theft, and others. (MY NOTE - ASSAULT CAUSING BODILY HARM IS UNDER THIS EXPANDED DEFINITION) However, the year of 1996 brought even greater dramatic and sweeping changes to immigration law by two acts of legislation known as the Illegal Immigrant Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996, "IIRAIRA"4 and the Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996, "AEDPA
......
When an alien is deemed an aggravated felon, he is barred from the U.S. for twenty years and ineligible for virtually any form of reliefs.14 Therefore, it is very important, whether one is determining an appropriate criminal plea or defending a criminal alien in removal proceedings, to be on guard for the term of aggravated felony.
http://library.lp.findlaw.com/artic...ath Penalty Act/filename/immigrationlaw_1_644

Here is a more expansive version of moral turpitude problems. Note the problem Bertuzzi has is that by pleading to Assault Causing Bodily Harm (a moral turpitude offense) he does not benefit from the "petty offense" exception to a conviction because ABH carries a maximum penalty of 18 months. If he had pleaded to simple assault he would have been fine since it is not a moral turpitude offense.

The nature of the offense, the maximum punishment possible and the sentence actually ordered are all relevant. I will explain below.

Not all crimes are considered moral turpitude offenses. Driving under the influence or common assault are generally not considered to be crimes of moral turpitude. However, sexual offenses usually do involve moral turpitude (MY NOTE as is assault causing bodily harm but not common or simple assault).

Assuming that the offense is a crime of moral turpitude, there is something called the petty offense exception, which is discussed here. According to this exception, excludability will not occur where:

a. the alien has committed only one crime of moral turpitude;

b. the maximum penalty possible for the crime for which the alien was convicted did not exceed one year of imprisonment; and

c. the alien was not sentenced to imprisonment for a term greater than six months, regardless of the extent to which the sentence was ultimately satisfied.

If the maximum penalty is more than one year of imprisonment, the exception does not apply. Also, if the actual period of imprisonment (if any) imposed was greater than six months, the exception does not apply. Clearly, both are relevant to the issue of excludability.

Here is the actual US law that governs:

Sec. 212. [8 U.S.C. 1182]

(a) Classes of Aliens Ineligible for Visas or Admission.-Except as otherwise provided in this Act, aliens who are inadmissible under the following paragraphs are ineligible to receive visas and ineligible to be admitted to the United States:

(2) Criminal and related grounds.-

(A) Conviction of certain crimes.-

(i) In general.-Except as provided in clause (ii), any alien convicted of, or who admits having committed, or who admits committing acts which constitute the essential elements of-

(I) a crime involving moral turpitude (other than a purely political offense or an attempt or conspiracy to commit such a crime), or

(II) a violation of (or a conspiracy or attempt to violate) any law or regulation of a State, the United States, or a foreign country relating to a controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802)), is inadmissible.

(ii) Exception.-Clause (i)(I) shall not apply to an alien who committed only one crime if-

(I) the crime was committed when the alien was under 18 years of age, and the crime was committed (and the alien released from any confinement to a prison or correctional institution imposed for the crime) more than 5 years before the date of application for a visa or other documentation and the date of application for admission to the United States, or

(II) the maximum penalty possible for the crime of which the alien was convicted (or which the alien admits having committed or of which the acts that the alien admits having committed constituted the essential elements) did not exceed imprisonment for one year and, if the alien was convicted of such crime, the alien was not sentenced to a term of imprisonment in excess of 6 months (regardless of the extent to which the sentence was ultimately executed).

If you want a quick course on inadmissibility to the US here is a well-prepared PowerPoint presentation:
http://www.region7.nafsa.org/moralturp.ppt#1

A second and more serious ground of inadmissibility is that the conviction would also be considered an aggravated felony for which there is no waiver or discretionary entry.

Here is a comprehensive explantion of both moral turpitude crimes and aggravated felonies:

Aggravated Felony
General

The immigration consequences for a non-citizen convicted of an aggravated felony, and who has already entered the United States, is deportation. A non-citizen who tries to enter the country with an aggravated felony conviction is deemed inadmissible. The term inadmissible means that the aggravated felony can be a basis for keeping someone from immigrating to the United States or for denying that person a green card. See INA § 237(a)(2)(A)(iii). A person who is deported for an aggravated felony is permanently barred from re-entering the United States. INA § 212(a)(9)(A)(i).

What is an Aggravated Felony?

Aggravated felonies are enumerated by statute at INA § 101(a)(43).
In the immigration context, the term “aggravated felony†is not analogous to the use of that same term under federal criminal law. In fact, a federal or state crime that is classified as a misdemeanor can be an “aggravated felony†for immigration purposes if it meets the immigration definition of “aggravated felony.†The BIA held in Matter of Crammond, 23 I&N 9 (BIA en banc 2001) that if a person is convicted of an offense that has a potential sentence of less then one year, then the offense is not an aggravated felony. However, there are two exceptions to this rule. First, the ruling does not necessarily apply to drug offenses. Second, some federal courts have held that some misdemeanors can be aggravated felonies.

Crimes that are considered aggravated felonies can be found at: www.ins.gov/lpBin/lpext.dll/inserts...?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm#slb-act101. Note that any drug offense other than the first conviction for simple possession is likely to be an aggravated felony. Any theft crime—including a large number of relatively minor offenses—for which the sentence is one year or more, is also an aggravated felony.

What Constitutes a Conviction for Immigration Purposes?

A person must be “convicted†of a crime which constitutes an aggravated felony. A “conviction†under the INA requires that: 1) a judge or jury finds the person guilty or the person admits guilt, pleads no contest, or admits sufficient facts to support a finding of guilt; and 2) the judge orders some form of punishment, penalty, or restraint. This includes cases that have been sealed or expunged. Matter of Roldan, 22 I&N Dec. 512 (BIA 1999). Note that the 9th Circuit reversed the BIA’s decision in Roldan, holding that expungement, deferred adjudication, or other “rehabilitative relief†will eliminate the immigration effect of a first offense, simple possession conviction. Lujan-Armendariz v. INS (with Roldan v. INS joined), 222 F.3d 728 (9th Cir. 2000). Lujan-Armendariz only applies to immigration cases in the 9th Circuit.

Vacation of judgment and other post-conviction relief (including executive pardon) should remove aggravated felon status (with the exception of drug crimes—See Drug Convictions and Abuse for more information). The immigration definition of “conviction†does not include juvenile offenses, cases on direct appeal, and cases that have been referred to a state diversion program (unless a person is required to admit guilt, plead no contest, or admit sufficient facts to support a finding of guilt as a condition of referral to the program).

Inadmissible

Non-LPRs (Non-Legal Permanent Residents) convicted of an aggravated felony may apply for a waiver of inadmissibility under INA § 212(h) if: 1) he/she is the spouse, parent, or child (of any age) of a US citizen or LPR, and can prove that his/her removal from the United States would result in extreme hardship to the U.S. citizen or LPR relative; or 2) the crime occurred more than 15 years ago, his/her admission would not hurt national welfare or society, and he/she is rehabilitated. Individuals convicted of an aggravated felony who have ever had LPR status cannot apply for a waiver under INA § 212(h).

Cancellation of Removal

A non-citizen convicted of an aggravated felony is ineligible for release on bond from immigration custody, and is ineligible for asylum, cancellation of removal, or waiver of removal (if the person was a legal permanent resident at the time of his/her conviction). If a person who is deported for an aggravated felony attempts to re-enter the United States without permission, he/she is subject to a 20 year prison sentence under 8 U.S.C. § 1326(b)(2).

There is no remedy, waiver, or relief available to an LPR who has been convicted of an aggravated felony. However, an LPR who is convicted of an aggravated felony prior to September 30, 1996 (the date of enactment of the Illegal Immigration and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996) may be eligible for relief from deportation under the pre-1996 rules (which allowed aggravated felons to apply for cancellation of removal if they were legally present in the U.S. for seven years, including five as an LPR, and did not serve more than five years incarceration for the offense). INS v. St. Cyr, 121 S. Ct. 2271 (June 25, 2001).

Crimes Involving Moral Turpitude
General

Under INA § 237(a)(2)(A)(i)(ii), the immigration consequence for a non-citizen convicted of a crime involving moral turpitude (CIMT), and who has already entered the United States, is deportation. Under INA § 212(a)(2)(A)(i)(I), a person who tries to enter the country with a CIMT conviction is deemed inadmissible. The term inadmissible means that the CIMT can be a basis for keeping someone from immigrating to the United States or for denying that person a green card. Note that a person with a temporary legal status in the United States—or a permanent status that is subject to revocation—may not be able to immigrate through a relative later if he or she has ever committed a CIMT.

Deportation

The rules for deportability are less harsh than the rules for inadmissibility. A non-citizen is deportable for conviction of a CIMT (there must be a conviction) if, within five years of admission, he or she is convicted of a CIMT for which a sentence of one year or longer may be imposed. Conviction of any two CIMTs at any time after admission (not arising out of a single scheme of criminal misconduct), regardless of the potential sentence, also renders a non-citizen deportable.

What Constitutes a Conviction for Immigration Purposes?

A “conviction†under the INA requires 1) a judge or jury finds the person guilty or the person admits guilt, pleads no contest, or admits sufficient facts to support a finding of guilt; and 2) the judge orders some form of punishment, penalty, or restraint. This includes cases that have been sealed or expunged. Matter of Roldan, 22 I&N Dec. 512 (BIA 1999). Note that the 9th Circuit reversed the BIA’s decision in Roldan, holding that expungement, deferred adjudication, or other “rehabilitative relief†will eliminate the immigration effect of a first offense, simple possession conviction. Lujan-Armendariz v. INS (with Roldan v. INS joined), 222 F.3d 728 (9th Cir. 2000). Lujan-Armendariz only applies to immigration cases in the 9th Circuit.

The definition of “conviction†does not include juvenile offenses, cases on direct appeal, and cases that have been referred to a state diversion program (unless a person is required to admit guilt, plead no contest, or admit sufficient facts to support a finding of guilt as a condition of referral to the program).

Inadmissible

A person is inadmissible (but not deportable) for a CIMT even if he or she has never been convicted. If a non-citizen admits to an officer that he or she committed a CIMT, that person is inadmissible. Attempts and conspiracy to commit a CIMT are also grounds of inadmissibility.

Generally, it takes only one commission of a CIMT to make a non-citizen inadmissible (but not deportable) to the United States. See INA § 212(a)(2)(A)(i)(I). However, there are two exceptions for people who have committed only one CIMT: 1) if the person commits the crime when he or she is under the age of 18 and the crime is committed (and the person was released from prison or jail) more than five years before the date of application for the visa (the “juvenile offender exceptionâ€); or 2) the maximum penalty for the crime is one year or less and the sentenced imposed for the crime is six months or less (the “petty offense exceptionâ€). Under the INA, a “sentence†includes a suspended sentence—even if the person never spends a day in jail. If a judge “suspends imposition of a sentence†or “suspends execution†of a sentence, it has the same immigration consequences as a sentence of incarceration. When the non-citizen falls under either one of the two above-referenced categories, the person is not considered inadmissible by the INS, and will not suffer the immigration consequences of inadmissibility discussed above.

What is a CIMT?

Unfortunately, there is no statutory definition of a “crime involving moral turpitude.†CIMT is defined only by case law. Courts have generally described it as a crime that is “inherently base, vile or depraved and contrary to the accepted rules of morality and the duties owed between persons or to society in general…and as an act which is per se morally reprehensible and intrinsically wrong, or malum in se so it is the nature of the act itself and not the statutory prohibition of it which renders a crime one of moral turpitude.†Matter of Franklin, 20 I&N Dec. 867 (BIA 1994). The immigration judge will examine the elements of the offense to determine if it is a CIMT. The actual facts of a case may not be as important as the elements of the offense. For example, a crime that involves intent to commit fraud or theft, intent to do great bodily harm, lewd intent in some sex offenses, or in some cases recklessness or malice, is considered a CIMT. Immigrant Legal Resource Center, A Guide for Immigration Advocates, 2001 edition (www.ilrc.org). A list of crimes which have been designated as CIMTs can be found at http://www.criminalandimmigrationlaw.com/cmt/cmt.html.

As I said, Bertuzzi is facing US immigration difficulties.

And again I ask where did you obtain your law degree and expereince in immigration matters?
 

PecaFan

Registered User
Nov 16, 2002
9,243
521
Ottawa (Go 'Nucks)
Wetcoaster said:
As I said, Bertuzzi is facing US immigration difficulties.

Perhaps, if he was just Joe Citizen, instead of Mr. Multi Millionaire Athlete. Bertuzzi and the NHL's lawyers will have no trouble arranging entry. Talk to me if he's denied entry.

And again I ask where did you obtain your law degree and expereince in immigration matters?

Comprehension problems? I answered that in my first sentence in my last post.
 

Wetcoaster

Guest
PecaFan said:
Perhaps, if he was just Joe Citizen, instead of Mr. Multi Millionaire Athlete. Bertuzzi and the NHL's lawyers will have no trouble arranging entry. Talk to me if he's denied entry.



Comprehension problems? I answered that in my first sentence in my last post.

Which is why you obviously do not know what you are talking about.
 

CarlRacki

Registered User
Feb 9, 2004
1,442
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thinkwild said:
Thats pretty comprehensive thanks. I think the crown did a pretty good job, and i trust their discretion.

But the line of when it crosses into criminal from league matter was what I was wondering. Surely there would be some grey areas making a concise description of the particular parameters that would get them involved would be valuable. At our local midget games, is there a guideline for when to call the police if no video evidence is available? If (a) a conviction is likely to result in a very small or insignificant penalty; I guess I was wondering if there were any lines drawn for when more than just league suspension is warranted. Perhaps reasonable men would know it when they see it.

Bertuzzi on Moore - Yes
Domi on Niermayer - No.
The difference between criminal and league prosection is ... public reaction?

There's also precedent. Like it or not, BC set a precedent when they prosecuted McSorely. After that, they're almost obligated to prosecute a similar act like Bertuzzi's.
 

YellHockey*

Guest
Wetcoaster said:
Which is why you obviously do not know what you are talking about.

What? You mean that you can't just read the text of a decision and be awarded a law degree?

C'mon! No one would really believe that.
 

PecaFan

Registered User
Nov 16, 2002
9,243
521
Ottawa (Go 'Nucks)
Wetcoaster said:
Which is why you obviously do not know what you are talking about.

Better to not have a law degree, but to be blessed with common sense than the opposite like yourself.

I've been dealing with your type online for over 25 years (yes, you read that right). When Bertuzzi crosses the border and plays his first game, you'll be nowhere near this thread admitting you were wrong.
 

Wetcoaster

Guest
PecaFan said:
Better to not have a law degree, but to be blessed with common sense than the opposite like yourself.

I've been dealing with your type online for over 25 years (yes, you read that right). When Bertuzzi crosses the border and plays his first game, you'll be nowhere near this thread admitting you were wrong.

Since we are dealing with legal analysis and interpretation - that comment makes no sense - common or otherwise.
 

Wetcoaster

Guest
CarlRacki said:
There's also precedent. Like it or not, BC set a precedent when they prosecuted McSorely. After that, they're almost obligated to prosecute a similar act like Bertuzzi's.

And you have to also bear in mind that Bertuzzi was charged under the exact same section of the Criminal Code as McSorley.
 

thinkwild

Veni Vidi Toga
Jul 29, 2003
11,045
1,713
Ottawa
PecaFan said:
Perhaps, if he was just Joe Citizen, instead of Mr. Multi Millionaire Athlete. Bertuzzi and the NHL's lawyers will have no trouble arranging entry. Talk to me if he's denied entry.


I dont see how you can say the law is wrong. The points Wetcoaster enumerated seem quite clear and damning. Bertuzzi seems destined for some tough immigration problems that seem by no means a lam dunk. Perhaps you will be right and the NHL lawyers will arrange to have Bertuzzi play as did Probert. (If he crosses the picket line one would presume. Would Bert be a scab for re-instatement?) But the times and the laws are a different

You raise some good common sense points that I as a lay person also find logical and would of thought too. Until confronted by the actual law Wetcoaster pointed put. For some curious reason, the actual law doesnt always seem to follow my logic I've found out, (who'd a thunk). I hope you're right and they do find a way for Bert to play again. But the actual law seems to suggest its goin to take some fancy lawyerin'. The NHLs current position seems to be taking the puck home for a couple of years anyway
 

Wetcoaster

Guest
thinkwild said:
I dont see how you can say the law is wrong. The points Wetcoaster enumerated seem quite clear and damning. Bertuzzi seems destined for some tough immigration problems that seem by no means a lam dunk. Perhaps you will be right and the NHL lawyers will arrange to have Bertuzzi play as did Probert. (If he crosses the picket line one would presume. Would Bert be a scab for re-instatement?) But the times and the laws are a different

You raise some good common sense points that I as a lay person also find logical and would of thought too. Until confronted by the actual law Wetcoaster pointed put. For some curious reason, the actual law doesnt always seem to follow my logic I've found out, (who'd a thunk). I hope you're right and they do find a way for Bert to play again. But the actual law seems to suggest its goin to take some fancy lawyerin'. The NHLs current position seems to be taking the puck home for a couple of years anyway

And Probert was no slam dunk. It took almost 4 years for him to get a waiver. If you recall he could not leave the US because if he did so he would not have been allowed back in so he was limited to playing against US based teams. Today Probert would never have been given a waiver under the amended legislation.

BTW Probert had been refused admission to the US several years earlier for an assault on a peace officer conviction in Windsor.

The other issue is that unlike Probert, Bertuzzi plays for a Canadian based team so there may be less incentive for USINS to give him any leeway. In Probert's case the Wings pushed hard and brought political pressure to bear as well.
 
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