Player Discussion Brady Tkachuk Part X

[Micklebot]

That's an irrelevant example for the matter at hand. He didn't have a NTC and never chose to play in Ottawa. If a player doesn't want to play for a particular team badly enough there's nothing a team can do other than bench him or trade him for whatever they can.

Changing the rules on NTC's would not have impacted DeBrincat's situation at all.

It's not irrelevant, it's an example of the impact a player not wanting to be on a team can have. If he had a NTC, that wouldn't change the fact that he was dogging it on the ice or that he didn't want to be here, it would just further limit the teams options for a trade.


The idea that teams can refuse to trade players who want out if there's no good options and it doesn't hurt the team is pretty absurd.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

A big part of what allows teams to both win and stay competitive is their ability to bring attract the big names.

We have already seen Winnipeg, Toronto and Edmonton be perennial playoff teams recently. We’ve seen the latter go to two cup finals. Their ability to attract players is not the same. So if you’re a Canadian team that establishes themselves as a cup contender, how do you take the next step to winning when your biggest competitors are repeatedly landing the best out there? It’s tough to gain that edge in the first place to change the trend.

Florida won the cup then Marchand and Jones forced their way there. Hard to compete with that if you’re Edmonton, although they certainly made their own mistakes too.

And regarding your first point, the cap increases are going to help those same 4-5 teams repeatedly add. There’s enough of them that one always seems to have a way when another is maxed out. It’s not like every player is going to end up there, to your point the Tuch’s of the world may be available to the next grouping (like Ehlers to Carolina), but when the true stars are always going to the same places it’s gonna be hard for other teams to compete.

Florida got to where they are through smart patient opportunistic roster moves. Nobody wanted to play in Florida for most of their history, they were a retirement destination. Reinhart, Bennett, Verhaeghe and Forsling were not big names when they brought them in. They had to overpay to land Bobrovsky. They were already a cup winner when Marchand and Jones decided they wanted to be a part of that.

And even then, it's not guaranteed. Florida missed the playoffs this year. They did significantly worse than our "undesirable destination". Yeah they had injuries. but so did we.

Only 16 teams made the playoffs. We've made it in back to back years. Are players going to be pushing each other over to come play for us? No, but if we can continue to be a playoff team then we become one of the "safer" destinations to sign in if one of the top teams doesn't have the room or the fit for you.

 

[Masked]

It's not irrelevant, it's an example of the impact a player not wanting to be on a team can have. If he had a NTC, that wouldn't change the fact that he was dogging it on the ice or that he didn't want to be here, it would just further limit the teams options for a trade.


The idea that teams can refuse to trade players who want out if there's no good options and it doesn't hurt the team is pretty absurd.

It's irrelevant to the discussion of abolishing or limiting NTC's, which was what I was replying to. My example of a player wanting out was in the context of a player who had chosen to play for the team he was demanding a trade from and circumstances had obviously changed.

 

[PlayOn]

Florida got to where they are through smart patient opportunistic roster moves. Nobody wanted to play in Florida for most of their history, they were a retirement destination. Reinhart, Bennett, Verhaeghe and Forsling were not big names when they brought them in. They had to overpay to land Bobrovsky. They were already a cup winner when Marchand and Jones decided they wanted to be a part of that.

And even then, it's not guaranteed. Florida missed the playoffs this year. They did significantly worse than our "undesirable destination". Yeah they had injuries. but so did we.

Only 16 teams made the playoffs. We've made it in back to back years. Are players going to be pushing each other over to come play for us? No, but if we can continue to be a playoff team then we become one of the "safer" destinations to sign in if one of the top teams doesn't have the room or the fit for you.

Florida also got their cup by making a trade for Matthew Tkachuk that most teams never have access to.

I think building a contender is fair game. I don’t believe that teams have great advantages over another in building to that point - smart management and good drafting can make you a contender. It’s that most contenders still have holes at the start and destination teams have a much easier time filling those holes. Florida still needed the availability and access of a star player to get over the hump even though they built a contender before.

Anyway, the way other markets have to try to win now is basically to do what Minnesota did, or the Toronto Raptors. Build a team, and when you’re ready to win, make a bold but risky move for a star even if they might walk in a year or two. And you have to manage your cap and assets well to be ready for that move when it’s available.

 

[Micklebot]

It's irrelevant to the discussion of abolishing or limiting NTC's, which was what I was replying to. My example of a player wanting out was in the context of a player who had chosen to play for the team he was demanding a trade from and circumstances had obviously changed.

It's not irrelevant though, it's not being presented as an example of a guy using his NTC it's presented as an example of the impact keeping a player around that has no interest in being around can have. You claimed that a team isn't out anything when a player wants out, only to block or limit trades options using their NTC since they can just keep playing them if they don't like the trade options. Debrincat sulking around is a direct example of what happens when you play a player that has no interest in being around.

If Larkin decides to sulk around the ice à la Debrincat because Det chooses to keep him around after he decides he wants out, the Det is obviously hurt by that players decision to want out.

 

[senswon]

Maybe he requests a move next week so he can play with his Americano teammate, Larkin.

Hearing Chicago is willing to move 4th in the draft//getting Stenberg and perhaps a D and another young forward plus $$$ savings could be attractive tbh

Prob on his ntc but it's also one of the closest west teams to NJ and they will be on the rise soon

 

[HSF]

It really doesn't make sense to me. Whatever team that is going to acquire him is going to want to extend him ASAP, and they can't do that until next offseason. Unless word comes out that he wants out like it did with Hughes, I just don;t see it happening.

It makes a lot of sense for a team to want him for two runs and if we trade him to a prefered destination then a extension is likely after

The question is does he wants to leave? and thats for Staois to figure out ASAP

 

[HSF]

Hensler made world junior twice. Not many do that

is this made up?

Once you make it once you are almost guaranteed to make it again if you are eligible

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Hearing Chicago is willing to move 4th in the draft//getting Stenberg and perhaps a D and another young forward plus $$$ savings could be attractive tbh

Prob on his ntc but it's also one of the closest west teams to NJ and they will be on the rise soon

If Chicago is willing to part with 4OA, a decent D (who would this be?) and a young forward that is something we should absolutely be considering. I doubt they'd offer that for Brady though.

 

[SENStastic]

I don't know about that. A player getting a NTC is a commitment that he doesn't have to upend his life based upon the whims of the team. He's chosen to play there. Limiting that is unfair.

The team isn't really out anything if he decides he wants out. They can always refuse to trade him if there's no good options for a trade. Generally there's a reason why a player wants out of a team that they previously chose to play for and that reason usually falls on the team.

While on paper you might say that could be true, in reality, its completely untrue and that's not how it ever plays out in real life. The team is definitely hurt in almost every case, especially if you're talking about a core star player.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It makes a lot of sense for a team to want him for two runs and if we trade him to a prefered destination then a extension is likely after

The question is does he wants to leave? and thats for Staois to figure out ASAP

Still increases risk even if they feel confident though. My wager is he's still more valuable with a guaranteed extension being part of it over the 2 runs + hope scenario. All it takes is for that team to have an off season and things could change quickly for Brady.

 

[Masked]

While on paper you might say that could be true, in reality, its completely untrue and that's not how it ever plays out in real life. The team is definitely hurt in almost every case, especially if you're talking about a core star player.

Teams get control of a player until they hit UFA. They use draft picks on them or trade other assets to acquire them. But after they're eligible for UFA, the player controls where he goes. It's hit choice. The team isn't out anything if he no longer chooses to be a part of a team.

If you don't want your players asking for trades maybe have your GM built a roster that can make the playoffs. There might be some cases where a player asks out for reasons that don't involve the organization (i.e. Heatley) but it's almost always because the organization screwed up in one way or another.

 

[SENStastic]

Teams get control of a player until they hit UFA. They use draft picks on them or trade other assets to acquire them. But after they're eligible for UFA, the player controls where he goes. It's hit choice. The team isn't out anything if he no longer chooses to be a part of a team.

If you don't want your players asking for trades maybe have your GM built a roster that can make the playoffs. There might be some cases where a player asks out for reasons that don't involve the organization (i.e. Heatley) but it's almost always because the organization screwed up in one way or another.

OK, but we're talking about players pressuring their way out before they even get close to UFA because they want to immediately get out of the current team they've signed that contract with and go somewhere else. In some cases, like Larkin and Hughes, it's 2-5 years before they even get to UFA.

So no, I don't agree with your premise at all. Players have started to weaponize that protection to force their way out prematurely into a more favourable spot whenever they decide now and thereby completely screwing their teams over and whatever plans they had in place for the immediate future.

 

[Masked]

OK, but we're talking about players pressuring their way out before they even get close to UFA because they want to immediately get out of the current team they've signed that contract with and go somewhere else. In some cases, like Larkin and Hughes, it's 2-5 years before they even get to UFA.

No I wasn't. I was discussing the merits of NTC's. You're not keeping up here. Hell, we've literally discussed Larkin's NTC and you're claming he's not hit UFA. You can't get a NTC if you haven't hit the age for UFA.

 

[Loach]

Still increases risk even if they feel confident though. My wager is he's still more valuable with a guaranteed extension being part of it over the 2 runs + hope scenario. All it takes is for that team to have an off season and things could change quickly for Brady.

I'm so sick of all the Brady talk. It started as soon as he signed his first contract. Fck Walt and his brother. If he stays, he stays. If he leaves, he leaves. Is what I used to think. Now I just want the sideshow out. I don't care. The team has to do all this to keep him happy, "I don't know where all this talk comes from and it hurts my feelings.". I don't know...play better...you got a guy playing with a broken arm and another a broken jaw....do better. Where does it come from...your family. Shut up and win games.

 

[SENStastic]

No I wasn't. I was discussing the merits of NTC's. You're not keeping up here. Hell, we've literally discussed Larkin's NTC and you're claming he's not hit UFA. You can't get a NTC if you haven't hit the age for UFA.

How the hell is Larkin a UFA if he's under contract for 5 more years? He's not close to being a UFA. I have no gripes for players getting it after a certain point in the NHL, but teams also need some sort of protection if players start abusing it to get their guaranteed big long term contracts and then also forcing their way out prematurely somewhere else.

Brady could've done the same as early as last summer too, when he was still 3 years under contract. That's not feasable for teams trying to plan for the future.

 

[senswon]

If Chicago is willing to part with 4OA, a decent D (who would this be?) and a young forward that is something we should absolutely be considering. I doubt they'd offer that for Brady though.

4ov + maybe Levshunov + Burakovski ?

 

[Masked]

How the hell is Larkin a UFA if he's under contract for 5 more years? He's not close to being a UFA.

I never said he was a UFA. Keep up. He extended with Detroit for long term after he hit the age of UFA.

 

[SENStastic]

I never said he was a UFA. Keep up. He extended with Detroit for long term after he hit the age of UFA.

You seem to have completely missed what my very first response to your post was about, I was specifically highlighting and disagreeing with this point you made here:

"I don't know about that. A player getting a NTC is a commitment that he doesn't have to upend his life based upon the whims of the team. He's chosen to play there. Limiting that is unfair.

The team isn't really out anything if he decides he wants out. They can always refuse to trade him if there's no good options for a trade. Generally there's a reason why a player wants out of a team that they previously chose to play for and that reason usually falls on the team."

The bolded part is the argument I disagreed with, and argued against as being incorrect. The team is definitely affected and hurt if the player that was awarded an NMC/full NTC changes his mind midway through that contract and demands out, while also exercising the NMC he was rewarded that hamstrings and screws over the team by severely limiting their trade options and potential return value.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

4ov + maybe Levshunov + Burakovski ?

If Chicago offered that I'd do it immediately. Levshunov is going to be a very good player.

 

[PlayOn]

I feel like Brady either lands in Florida or NJ. Not only does he live in NJ but they would market the hell out of him and Jack Hughes for USA hockey. And it’d basically be a lock for Quinn Hughes to join them all in a couple years.

 

[Loach]

I feel like Brady either lands in Florida or NJ. Not only does he live in NJ but they would market the hell out of him and Jack Hughes for USA hockey. And it’d basically be a lock for Quinn Hughes to join them all in a couple years.

I hope Quinn walks on Minn