Player Discussion Brady Tkachuk (LW) - Part XI

[jbeck5]

No, the problem here is you're expecting Brady to be Matthew.

The other problem is expecting him to have a complete 180 in his defensive game, but no one wants to wait for Brady to try and figure it out. Just trade him, problem solved.

I think people have lost patience.

A month ago, I would have, and in fact DID criticize the sens defensive efforts. I would list both Brady and Timmy as guys who are too focused on offense and not focused enough on defense.

Well, the last month or so, Timmy has been the best player at both ends of the ice putting in insane defensive efforts all over the ice. This means I do not mention Timmy anymore when talking about defensive laziness.

Tkachuk is the captain and is older so I put more pressure on him to be defensively responsible. Why is Timmy finding his defensive game before Tkachuk, the captain, who is several years older.

I want to see the insane defensive effort I've been seeing out of stutzle out of Tkachuk.

I still see Tkachuk skate with more energy for an offensive chance than I do on the back check. I used to see that out of stutzle and would criticize him as well, but not anymore. Stutzle is skating just as hard to steal the puck as he is to create a chance.

That's what I want out of Brady. Skate like he's about to get a breakaway, but for a back check..do that consistently for a month like stutzle, and I'll back off for sure.

You mean Brady's defensive game is the reason we've been missing the playoffs all of these years?

I need that Jennifer Lawrence gif.

The defensive game of all our top players including the leader Tkachuk? Absolutely.

The cores 2 way game has been trash for years. Pinto is good. Norris is coming around... Stutzle seems to have figured it out. Maybe Brady is next??

 

[Answer]

How is it rooting against your team to want the players to put more effort so that the team is better and wins more games?

Why do you even care to waste your time with these kind of people lol?

 

[umma gumma]

I think people have lost patience.

A month ago, I would have, and in fact DID criticize the sens defensive efforts. I would list both Brady and Timmy as guys who are too focused on offense and not focused enough on defense.

Well, the last month or so, Timmy has been the best player at both ends of the ice putting in insane defensive efforts all over the ice. This means I do not mention Timmy anymore when talking about defensive laziness.

Tkachuk is the captain and is older so I put more pressure on him to be defensively responsible. Why is Timmy finding his defensive game before Tkachuk, the captain, who is several years older.

I want to see the insane defensive effort I've been seeing out of stutzle out of Tkachuk.

I still see Tkachuk skate with more energy for an offensive chance than I do on the back check. I used to see that out of stutzle and would criticize him as well, but not anymore. Stutzle is skating just as hard to steal the puck as he is to create a chance.

That's what I want out of Brady. Skate like he's about to get a breakaway, but for a back check..do that consistently for a month like stutzle, and I'll back off for sure.

Because no two players are the same and shed bad habits and create new instincts at a different rate? Timmy also has greater responsibility defensively as he's the center. Not to be confused with wingers not needing to be defensively responsible.

I want Brady to be better without the puck too. I'm just not on the trade him bandwagon.

Why do you even care to waste your time with these kind of people lol?

Oh the irony.

The defensive game of all our top players including the leader Tkachuk? Absolutely.

The cores 2 way game has been trash for years. Pinto is good. Norris is coming around... Stutzle seems to have figured it out. Maybe Brady is next??

That's not the way it was worded though.

 

[jbeck5]

Obviously not the only reason.

But if Alfredsson, Karlsson, Spezza, Stone had a (-) season are you really expecting the team to make the playoffs?

No. Your top line got outscored, season is done.

It's no different for Brady, as long as he is a minus player we shouldn't expect playoffs.

This. It's not that our top players are not putting up points. Its that they're constantly being outscored at even strength. Our best players have to be scoring more than getting scored on if we're going to be a good team.

Sanderson is pacing for -50
Norris is pacing for -25
Zub is pacing for -25
Greig is pacing for -25
Tkachuk is pacing for -25
Pinto is pacing for -30
Batherson pacing for -10

The list goes on.

Our best players need to turn it around and quickly.

 

[Relapsing]

You can stay stuff about him. He's not perfect. Its the absolving (or ignoring) of others players with similar issues, and pinning the results of the last 7 years on one player that's a little much.

This whole "you can't criticize one person in a thread dedicated to him without also criticizing everyone else in this or their own threads" bit you've got going on is wild.

Also.... SELF GOTCHA MOTHERf***ER. YOU JUST CRITICIZED BRADY BY SAYING HE'S NOT PERFECT.

YOU'RE A HORRIBLE FAN

 

[Answer]

View attachment 935976

This whole "you can't criticize one person in a thread dedicated to him without also criticizing everyone else in this or their own threads" but you've got going on is wild.

Also.... SELF GOTCHA MOTHERf***ER. YOU JUST CRITICIZED BRADY BY SAYING HE'S NOT PERFECT.

View attachment 935980

YOU'RE A HORRIBLE FAN

This is what you have to deal with when parents let their kids get on the internet

This is the best post I have ever came across!

 

[Tuna99]

This. It's not that our top players are not putting up points. Its that they're constantly being outscored at even strength. Our best players have to be scoring more than getting scored on if we're going to be a good team.

Sanderson is pacing for -50
Norris is pacing for -25
Zub is pacing for -25
Greig is pacing for -25
Tkachuk is pacing for -25
Pinto is pacing for -30
Batherson pacing for -10

The list goes on.

Our best players need to turn it around and quickly.

Where’s Pinto been? Paul Maclean would tell him to go get in a fight to get your head into the game, you see him working but his attack through center ice does not exist.

 

[jbeck5]

Because no two players are the same and shed bad habits and create new instincts at a different rate? Timmy also has greater responsibility defensively as he's the center. Not to be confused with wingers not needing to be defensively responsible.

I want Brady to be better without the puck too. I'm just not on the trade him bandwagon.


Oh the irony.


That's not the way it was worded though.

Yeah but he's 3 years older and still hasn't figured it out. I guess I should have told guys like arvedson, Hossa, Alfredsson, and stone that they aren't centers so it's not as important that they be strong defensively. I wonder what they would say lol.

Well he's the captain. He's supposed to lead by example..the better phrasing would have been "has Tkachuk led by example?" The answer would be a resounding no.

 

[umma gumma]

View attachment 935976

This whole "you can't criticize one person in a thread dedicated to him without also criticizing everyone else in this or their own threads" but you've got going on is wild.

Also.... SELF GOTCHA MOTHERf***ER. YOU JUST CRITICIZED BRADY BY SAYING HE'S NOT PERFECT.

View attachment 935980

YOU'RE A HORRIBLE FAN

Seriously, how old are you?

 

[jbeck5]

He is:

Top 30 in pts,
Top 20 in goals,
3rd in hits,
2nd in shots,
1st in PIMs.

There's certainly some room for growth on the defensive side, and you occasionally need to reign in the emotions, but for better or worse, this is a guy that has an impact on every game he plays.

No one is debating his offensive skill or physical skill.

They want him to develop into a 200 ft player.

Got any Tkachuk rankings in important defensive stats? Does he rank top 50? Top 100? Probably not.

 

[umma gumma]

Yeah but he's 3 years older and still hasn't figured it out. I guess I should have told guys like arvedson, Hossa, Alfredsson, and stone that they aren't centers so it's not as important that they be strong defensively. I wonder what they would say lol.

Well he's the captain. He's supposed to lead by example..the better phrasing would have been "has Tkachuk led by example?" The answer would be a resounding no.

Meh, everyone keeps citing Stevie Y. He didn't figure it out the defensive side until he was 10+ years in the league.

 

[Tuna99]

We're at 21 games now, I don't think we ever had a stretch that good under DJ.

Even if you want to cherry pick the games where they "got away from it" it's still way better than under DJ

Team	CA/60	SA/60	xGA/60	SCA/60	HDCA/60
Green last 6	52.34​	27.19​	2.21​	26.28​	8.38​

No team plays perfect defence every game, all game. Feels like other teams get graded on a curve.

Funny thung is we had more points under DJ and Dorion start last season then we did this season after 20.

So sure we’re making progress to the eye, but the boat is still taking on water

 

[Relapsing]

Oh yeah, we certainly still have some issues, I think the consistency will come, I also think years of poor goaltending from our starters has a lingering effect on the emotions of this team..

As I mentioned in the GDT last night (Yo @DueDiligence, please take note for your records), if last night didn't make it expressly clear that this teams play lives and dies on emotional swings, I don't know what will. Goaltending absolutely plays into it, but even the usual momentum swings you expect can at times throw them entirely off their game. They'll get there, just wish they'd do it sooner than later

 

[Relapsing]

This is what you have to deal with when parents let their kids get on the internet

This is the best post I have ever came across!

Why, thank you!

Seriously, how old are you?

Live look at Umma Gumma:

 

[jbeck5]

lol
It took Yzerman 13 years to have his “Yzerman” transition. He Was literally 31, Brady is 25.
It was also supplemented by a vast influx of better players in the supporting cast.

Brady has been for the most part of his early career been surrounded by even younger players or garbage players, with a garbage coach, a garbage GM, and a garbage owner.
If they had a goalie who could reasonably stop a puck over .900 this conversation wouldnt exist.

Different players and different success rates. Obviously different times with different amount of teams making the playoffs.

But Yzerman was 31 the season the wings finally won the cup.

But going into that season, Yzerman had made the playoffs 11/13 years. He had 93 career playoff games at that point. He had made the conference finals 3 times.

It wasn't that Yzerman was so bad he couldn't get his team into the playoffs. It was that he was good enough to get his team in the playoffs, but needed to alter his game to get his team past the third round where they were 0/3 for getting to the finals.

That's a huge contrast from Brady who is going into his 7th year without making the playoffs. At Tkachuks age, Yzerman had made the playoffs 5/7 years, had made the conference finals, and had played 32 playoff games.

It was about tweaking yzermans game as a leader whereas tkachucks defensive game almost needs an overhaul.

At this point, Yzerman had seasons of +30 and +17 +/-. Tkachuks best is +1 lol

He needs to figure out how to be a +20 or so hockey player.

I know +/1 is silly sometimes, but look at other wingers our team had.

Alfie had seasons of +42, +29, +16, +15, +15, etc.
Hossa had seasons of +28, +27, +24, +20, +19, +18,+18,+18,+17, +17 etc.

Now the stat is meh, but it's accurate that if you're going to be a top team, you need your best players to consistently outscore whoever they're on the ice against, which would lead to good plus minuses.

Right now, Brady's problem isn't not being on the ice for enough goals for. The problem is that him and his most common linemates are constantly getting outscored while on the ice, leading to totals of -17, -14, -10, -10, etc.

 

[umma gumma]

Why, thank you!

Live look at Umma Gumma:

View attachment 935987

I love Seinfeld. Are you old enough to even know who Jason Alexander is?

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Brady was a lot better last night. More of that and we're looking better. Still things to work on but the guy played pretty hard all over the ice.

 

[Relapsing]

I love Seinfeld. Are you old enough to even know who Jason Alexander is?

That name is vaguely familiar. Wasn't he the guy who had a cameo in Star Trek Voyager?

Why, is he famous or something?

 

[Golden_Jet]

Seriously, how old are you?

Meh, kids will be kids these days, it’s just the new entitled generations.

 

[Micklebot]

This. It's not that our top players are not putting up points. Its that they're constantly being outscored at even strength. Our best players have to be scoring more than getting scored on if we're going to be a good team.

Sanderson is pacing for -50
Norris is pacing for -25
Zub is pacing for -25
Greig is pacing for -25
Tkachuk is pacing for -25
Pinto is pacing for -30
Batherson pacing for -10

The list goes on.

Our best players need to turn it around and quickly.

The question is why are they getting outscored at ES. Is it because they are playing that poorly?

Here's the same group of players, with their actual GF/GA and their xGF/GA, along with the +/- paced out to 82 games.

Player	Position	GP	GF	GA	+/- pace	xGF	xGA	x +/- pace
Brady Tkachuk	L	21​	13​	18​	-19.5238​	12.64​	9.95​	10.50381​
Artem Zub	D	11​	1​	9​	-59.6364​	6.56​	5.48​	8.050909​
Shane Pinto	C	13​	5​	12​	-44.1538​	6.47​	5.44​	6.496923​
Drake Batherson	R	21​	11​	13​	-7.80952​	12.71​	11.55​	4.529524​
Jake Sanderson	D	21​	8​	18​	-39.0476​	15.06​	14.77​	1.132381​
Ridly Greig	C	18​	9​	14​	-22.7778​	8.6​	8.57​	0.136667​
Josh Norris	C	21​	8​	15​	-27.3333​	10.15​	11.32​	-4.56857​

Pretty big difference between the expected and actual results.

Now here's that same group, along with their on ice sh% and Sv% along with the PDO

Player	On-Ice SH%	On-Ice SV%	PDO
Brady Tkachuk	7.88​	84.75​	0.926​
Artem Zub	1.37​	85.25​	0.866​
Shane Pinto	5.81​	82.35​	0.882​
Drake Batherson	7.01​	90.51​	0.975​
Jake Sanderson	4.19​	88.75​	0.929​
Ridly Greig	7.69​	85.11​	0.928​
Josh Norris	6.72​	88.37​	0.951​

To put those numbers into context, last year, SJ had the worst PDO in the league at .970, only Batherson is above that here. A PDO of .970 last year would have been in the bottom 10% of the league at an individual level.

Can the players fix some things in their game, absolutely. Is the biggest problem with this teams performance tied to the skaters? Probably not.

 

[jbeck5]

lol
It took Yzerman 13 years to have his “Yzerman” transition. He Was literally 31, Brady is 25.
It was also supplemented by a vast influx of better players in the supporting cast.

Brady has been for the most part of his early career been surrounded by even younger players or garbage players, with a garbage coach, a garbage GM, and a garbage owner.
If they had a goalie who could reasonably stop a puck over .900 this conversation wouldnt exist.

Different players and different success rates. Obviously different times with different amount of teams making the playoffs.

But Yzerman was 31 the season the wings finally won the cup.

But going into that season, Yzerman had made the playoffs 11/13 years. He has 93 career playoff games. He had made the conference finals 3 times.

It wasn't that Yzerman was so bad he couldn't get his team into the playoffs. It was that he was good enough to get his team in the playoffs, but needed to alter his game to get his team past the third round where they were 0/3 for getting to the finals.

That's a huge contrast from Brady who is going into his 7th year without making the playoffs. At Tkachuks age, Yzerman had made the playoffs 5/7 years, had made the conference finals, and had played 32 playoff games.

It was about tweaking yzermans game as a leader whereas tkachucks

I don’t need a culture change, what I need is goalies who don’t let in 4 or 5 goals every game.

I agree, but then go out and get one. Stopping putting all your eggs in one basket every year.

I see plenty of teams with no name goalies providing better goaltending. Maybe goaltending is such a crapshoot that you're better off just having 4 journeyman goalies with some NHL experience and hope one of them gets hot.

We've tried the whole "give up assets for a known name" or "sign a known guy to a big contract"

Maybe we need to go back to the days of Rhodes and tugnutt and lalime. Bring in a bunch of young backups and hope one develops into a starter for cheap.

Because realistically, a journeyman back up should be able to give us goaltending that equals Murray or korpisalo or ullmarks play...but at a fraction of the cost.


I no longer seem to see consistent top 10 goalies for a decade like we used to...so maybe stop investing in goalies assuming they stay consistent year to year.

Gone are the likes of getting a decade of top goaltending out of Roy, brodeur, belfour, Joseph, Hasek, price, Lundqvist, etc. it seems to be mostly flash in the pan for a few years and then fizzle away.

I don't know how crazy that idea is, but it's definitely popped up in my head a few times after all these failed goalie acquisitions. Maybe we need to go back to getting players who are playing for their NHL careers rather than sitting on a nice 4 year contract worth millions, ya know?

 

[jbeck5]

Good. Take your toys and go home.

How did you not see the clear humour in that post? It was littered with sarcasm.

The only way to take the comment is with a chuckle, and you managed to be bothered lol.

Daddy, chill!

 

[jbeck5]

The question is why are they getting outscored at ES. Is it because they are playing that poorly?

Here's the same group of players, with their actual GF/GA and their xGF/GA, along with the +/- paced out to 82 games.

Player	Position	GP	GF	GA	+/- pace	xGF	xGA	x +/- pace
Brady Tkachuk	L	21​	13​	18​	-19.5238​	12.64​	9.95​	10.50381​
Artem Zub	D	11​	1​	9​	-59.6364​	6.56​	5.48​	8.050909​
Shane Pinto	C	13​	5​	12​	-44.1538​	6.47​	5.44​	6.496923​
Drake Batherson	R	21​	11​	13​	-7.80952​	12.71​	11.55​	4.529524​
Jake Sanderson	D	21​	8​	18​	-39.0476​	15.06​	14.77​	1.132381​
Ridly Greig	C	18​	9​	14​	-22.7778​	8.6​	8.57​	0.136667​
Josh Norris	C	21​	8​	15​	-27.3333​	10.15​	11.32​	-4.56857​

Pretty big difference between the expected and actual results.

Now here's that same group, along with their on ice sh% and Sv% along with the PDO

Player	On-Ice SH%	On-Ice SV%	PDO
Brady Tkachuk	7.88​	84.75​	0.926​
Artem Zub	1.37​	85.25​	0.866​
Shane Pinto	5.81​	82.35​	0.882​
Drake Batherson	7.01​	90.51​	0.975​
Jake Sanderson	4.19​	88.75​	0.929​
Ridly Greig	7.69​	85.11​	0.928​
Josh Norris	6.72​	88.37​	0.951​

To put those numbers into context, last year, SJ had the worst PDO in the league at .970, only Batherson is above that here. A PDO of .970 last year would have been in the bottom 10% of the league at an individual level.

Can the players fix some things in their game, absolutely. Is the biggest problem with this teams performance tied to the skaters? Probably not.

It depends what years we're talking about..this conversation is about this year but also the last 7 years...I think the problem used to be more so our players not being good defensively, and over 7 years it has shifted to more blame on our goalies for sure. Last year and this year is more on our goalies.

That doesn't mean we haven't seen our best forwards not back check...when we know that to succeed, we need our best forwards quite literally always back checking hard. I don't remember Hossa or alfredsson coasting back when the other team has an odd man rush, for example.

So yes, the goalies are to blame, but so are the forwards who don't know how to properly back check with effort consistently.

We can blame many people. We don't have to limit ourselves to 1.


But of course goalies are way more to blame this year or last year, but I like blaming all players that can shoulder blame.

You'll never see me criticize the players that play a good 200 ft game.

 

[jbeck5]

Where’s Pinto been? Paul Maclean would tell him to go get in a fight to get your head into the game, you see him working but his attack through center ice does not exist.

Pinto has been relatively invisible. I expected more out of him. Kinda happy we didn't do some 6x6 people were talking about.

 

[Micklebot]

Different players and different success rates. Obviously different times with different amount of teams making the playoffs.

But Yzerman was 31 the season the wings finally won the cup.

But going into that season, Yzerman had made the playoffs 11/13 years. He has 93 career playoff games. He had made the conference finals 3 times.

It wasn't that Yzerman was so bad he couldn't get his team into the playoffs. It was that he was good enough to get his team in the playoffs, but needed to alter his game to get his team past the third round where they were 0/3 for getting to the finals.

That's a huge contrast from Brady who is going into his 7th year without making the playoffs. At Tkachuks age, Yzerman had made the playoffs 5/7 years, had made the conference finals, and had played 32 playoff games.

It was about tweaking yzermans game as a leader whereas tkachucks

Yzerman joined the league at a time when 76% of all teams made the playoffs, and only the worst team in his division would miss so you're definately right about different times, probably should have just stopped the comparisson there though.

Wings were a .500 team in two of Yzerman's first 8 seasons. Judging them on team success doesn't really make a lot of sense given the context they respectively played during.

All that said, people tend to bring up Yzerman in situations like this because he overhauled his game to put defensive play first when Bowman took over as head coach, and it lead to sustained team success and turned them into a dynasty, not because they think Brady is similarly gifted offensively or as good as Yzerman was before he changed how he played.

Also, tweaking Yzerman's game as a leader? come on now, they were inches away from trading him because they weren't sure they could win with him. He almost got traded to Ottawa and that was the 2nd time he had been made available.