Value of: Braden Holtby to Buffalo

[CatsforReinhart]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/deadsp...d-then-the-sabres-cleaned-hous-1794496665/amp
You don't have to like it but Eichel has the Sabres by the stones. If the team remains in the dumpster it's entirely plausible he looks for greener pastures and he's shown a willingness to resort to extreme measures to dictate the direction of the team.

Can't get any worse can it....

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

I'm sorry but contrary to your narrative the big difference here (that of Ws) was not entirely in spite of Holtby and was, at least partially because of Holtby.[/QUOTE]

I just think GMs might think the current edition of Holtby isn't worth as much as Caps fans think. It would be interesting to see if Holtby or Lundqvist had been drafted by let's say Arizona and what their records would look like. Maybe there vaulted status as premier NHL goalie would be diminished to just another guy playing for a poor team.

It only takes one team to make an offer that the Caps would think would be acceptable in a deal. I'm just doubting it would be Buffalo, who will poor for a few more years. No use giving up useful futures for a guy who is a UFA in two years.
Now if a team that think Holtby is difference maker as you suggest and could help their team immediately, that seems like a better fit. Maybe St Louis.

 

[StephenPeat]

Can't get any worse can it....

I don't see it that way but both good teams (Caps) and bad teams (Sabres) for whom it's not quite working should always look to get better, if a Holtby/Grubauer do that you'd be foolish not to examine it.

 

[CatsforReinhart]

I don't see it that way but both good teams (Caps) and bad teams (Sabres) for whom it's not quite working should always look to get better, if a Holtby/Grubauer do that you'd be foolish not to examine it.

We don't need them. We have our starting goalie in Ullmark. Trading for one of those makes our team worse overall mid and long term, not better. Giving up assets for a goalie when we have a goalie doesn't make sense.

 

[Pi]

Buffalo's problems aren't really based on goaltending. They lack depth. Fix that and even a mediocre goalie would be good enough to get the Sabres into the playoffs as a wild card with the talent they have. Look at the Devils this year. One superstar, hard working team with decent depth on all lines, solid D and average goaltending. 97 point team.

The Sabres can definitely emulate that.

The problem right now is that if Eichel and ROR aren't on the ice, there really isn't anyone capable of pushing the play.

 

[MayDayMayDay]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/deadsp...d-then-the-sabres-cleaned-hous-1794496665/amp
You don't have to like it but Eichel has the Sabres by the stones. If the team remains in the dumpster it's entirely plausible he looks for greener pastures and he's shown a willingness to resort to extreme measures to dictate the direction of the team.

And I am totally fine by it. Jack Eichel is the single best talent this franchise has seen in around 20 years. He wants to win and will offer no apologies in the pursuit of it.

Back on topic. I think a goalie of Holtby's caliber shifts the Sabres culture and direction dramatically. Mittlestadt's a no go, but Nylander (our best prospect behind Mittelstadt) is on the table for me - not that I've soured on him at all, but I think he's fair value.

 

[Zip15]

You should be well aware that this is stupid. Remind us all how much you paid for Lehner and how his career compares to Holtby's.

That's good money chasing bad. How much we paid for Lehner is precisely why we won't overpay for a goaltender.

Holtby is unlikely to be available. If he is you're going to be adding significantly to a 0.5PPG AHL forward.

Nylander is in his D+2 season, which you're hoping nobody will realize. He should've played 2016-17 in the OHL (or in Sweden), but he didn't have a bad season in the AHL this year. His D+2 AHL PPG is nearly identical to guys like Kempe, Zibanejad, and J.T. Miller. And that's before you account for him not having a training camp due to injury, which contributed to his slow start this year (6 pts in his first 22 games, 21 pts in his final 29 games [the latter of which would put his D+2 season on par with guys like Roslovic and Fiala]). I'm amenable to moving Nylander in the right deal, but not for Braden Holtby or any other goaltender.

Botterill would never trade 7 years of team control over Nylander for two years of control over a goaltender who just put up a worse season than the goaltender we're trying to replace (Lehner).

I think the lesson might be not to trade for Robin Lehner. I'm not trying to sell you on any Caps G but to my eye the Sabres will need to do something about goaltending or they won't be "ready to compete" for a while. Going with Ullmark is reasonable but I'm guessing the Sabres will have a Plan B (that might even be a trade for a Plan A, like Holtby/Grubauer) and Lehner will be catapulted into the sun. Otherwise you're only several seasons away from being in the same position the Islanders are today with Tavares (Eichel)

I'd rather roll with Ullmark and UFA/Lehner/Cheap Trade Acquisition (e.g., Neuvirth) than trade Nylander or even the 32nd pick for two years of Holtby. We aren't a goaltender away from being good. In 2016-17, we had two .920+ goaltenders (Lehner, Nilsson) and we didn't sniff the playoffs. We need to keep building our system, not chase after high-cost goaltenders.

 

[is the answer jesus]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/deadsp...d-then-the-sabres-cleaned-hous-1794496665/amp
You don't have to like it but Eichel has the Sabres by the stones. If the team remains in the dumpster it's entirely plausible he looks for greener pastures and he's shown a willingness to resort to extreme measures to dictate the direction of the team.

That article was based on a report by Paul Hamilton the Sabres beat reporter and after it came out and Eichel called bullshit he couldn't back peddle fast enough. This was also before Eichel signed his extension maybe prior to that he "had the Sabres by the stones". He's now Sabres property for the next 8 years, he could demand a trade but he has very little leverage at this point. Nor do I think he's going to throw a tantrum because the Sabres went into a year relying on a good young goalie in Ulmark.

 

[StephenPeat]

Botterill would never trade 7 years of team control over Nylander for two years of control over a goaltender who just put up a worse season than the goaltender we're trying to replace (Lehner).

I'd love to hear you explain how this is true.

 

[StephenPeat]

That article was based on a report by Paul Hamilton the Sabres beat reporter and after it came out and Eichel called bull**** he couldn't back peddle fast enough. This was also before Eichel signed his extension maybe prior to that he "had the Sabres by the stones". He's now Sabres property for the next 8 years, he could demand a trade but he has very little leverage at this point. Nor do I think he's going to throw a tantrum because the Sabres went into a year relying on a good young goalie in Ulmark.

Dougie Hamilton
Travis Hamonic
I can guarantee you if you're here in the same spot next season as you are this and the Sabres elected to go with Ullmark and he has flopped you're going to be hearing more about what leverage he has.

 

[Zip15]

I'd love to hear you explain how this is true.

He saved a lower percentage of the shots fired at him, for starters. Say nothing for the fact that he played behind a far better team than Lehner did.

 

[StephenPeat]

Nylander is in his D+2 season, which you're hoping nobody will realize. He should've played 2016-17 in the OHL (or in Sweden), but he didn't have a bad season in the AHL this year. His D+2 AHL PPG is nearly identical to guys like Kempe, Zibanejad, and J.T. Miller. And that's before you account for him not having a training camp due to injury, which contributed to his slow start this year (6 pts in his first 22 games, 21 pts in his final 29 games [the latter of which would put his D+2 season on par with guys like Roslovic and Fiala]). I'm amenable to moving Nylander in the right deal, but not for Braden Holtby or any other goaltender.

Botterill would never trade 7 years of team control over Nylander for two years of control over a goaltender.

And significantly lower than a guy like Kasperi Kapanen (whom I also wouldn't trade Holtby for) and Jakub Vrana who's rights the Caps control. I'm just saying I don't think Nylander is a player I'd absolutely covet for Holtby if I was the Caps.

 

[is the answer jesus]

Dougie Hamilton
Travis Hamonic
I can guarantee you if you're here in the same spot next season as you are this and the Sabres elected to go with Ullmark and he has flopped you're going to be hearing more about what leverage he has.

Neither of those players forced their way out because the team wasn't making themselves competitive. Hamilton wanted a big money deal with term and the Bruins didn't want to give it to him. Hamonic I believe wanted to be closer to home. You can't guarantee anything.

 

[StephenPeat]

He saved a lower percentage of the shots fired at him, for starters. Say nothing for the fact that he played behind a far better team than Lehner did.

The difference between 0.908 and 0.907 is the hill you're going to make this stand on? How about the 20 more Wins Holtby had? I'm sure he did nothing to contribute to any of them.

Holtby also played exactly 1 more game and faced ~80 more shots so maybe it was a little more than just the team.

 

[StephenPeat]

Neither of those players forced their way out because the team wasn't making themselves competitive. Hamilton wanted a big money deal with term and the Bruins didn't want to give it to him. Hamonic I believe wanted to be closer to home. You can't guarantee anything.

The point is in your example players under contract don't have much leverage when, now in reality, we see how much leverage they actually can have.

 

[Revelation]

you have something to back that up? Statistically that statement is a joke.

Gee I dunno maybe his vezina and vezina nomination vs Schneiders less than 100 NHL games backing up luongo

 

[is the answer jesus]

The point is in your example players under contract don't have much leverage when, now in reality, we see how much leverage they actually can have.

2 examples that don't even apply to this situation don't demonstrate anything. Your whole premise is based off far-fetched speculation. Sometimes unhappy players force their way off rosters, just like sometimes offersheets happen. That doesn't mean it's likely to happen. If Eichel had reservations about being here he wouldn't have signed an 8 year contract. He's not gonna pout a year after signing that contract and try to force his way out because the Sabres decided to play a rookie that's shown promise and is already in the system instead of overpaying for another team's goalie.

 

[AvatarAang]

Is there a team out there that can offer more than A.Nylander for Holtby?

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

There will be some options out there that won't break the bank. Ulmark will be up obviously, how much he plays will be dependant on who the other goaltender is. Hutton is a UFA and would be a good get. Plenty of journeyman goalies as well, Bernier, Lehtonen, Niemi, Khudobin. Steve Mason could be traded to clear cap space for the Jets and we could actually fetch an asset for taking him on. Koskinen has been rumored to be coming to the NHL as well. That's just a handful of options, and it doesn't include the Sabres simply giving Lehner a one year deal and letting him split time with Ulmark. If a goalie doesn't come cheap you don't make a deal.

Holtby is better than every goalie you mentioned and despite his season this year it's not close

 

[StephenPeat]

2 examples that don't even apply to this situation don't demonstrate anything. Your whole premise is based off far-fetched speculation. Sometimes unhappy players force their way off rosters, just like sometimes offersheets happen. That doesn't mean it's likely to happen. If Eichel had reservations about being here he wouldn't have signed an 8 year contract. He's not gonna pout a year after signing that contract and try to force his way out because the Sabres decided to play a rookie that's shown promise and is already in the system instead of overpaying for another team's goalie.

No, no I'm sure he's thrilled to be playing for a team that set historic precedent for mediocrity. Maybe he's not complaining today but if the Sabres continually finish in the basement it's highly plausible he will be. It's no more a guarantee than anything else in life but to say that it's not possible is ignorant.

 

[is the answer jesus]

Holtby is better than every goalie you mentioned and despite his season this year it's not close

Of course, but that doesn't mean Buffalo should trade one of the best prospects in all of hockey just to get him. This team has a lot of holes. Overpaying to land a good goalie on a 2 year deal is a Tim Murray type move and we've seen how well his "accelerate the rebuild" type moves have gone to date. Stay the course, put feelers out for a young goalie, if a good one becomes available for the right price go for it. Mittlestadt for Holtby is an absolute joke of a proposal.

 

[is the answer jesus]

No, no I'm sure he's thrilled to be playing for a team that set historic precedent for mediocrity. Maybe he's not complaining today but if the Sabres continually finish in the basement it's highly plausible he will be. It's no more a guarantee than anything else in life but to say that it's not possible is ignorant.

I never said it wasn't possible. I'm sure the Sabres don't want to be perennial bottom feeders and will take a lot of steps to improve the team around Eichel. I don't think that would include overpaying for a goalie with 2 years left on his deal. I would imagine they'd kick the tires, but Holtby would have more value to a team that's already a contender or on the verge of being a contender for example the Flyers.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Of course, but that doesn't mean Buffalo should trade one of the best prospects in all of hockey just to get him. This team has a lot of holes. Overpaying to land a good goalie on a 2 year deal is a Tim Murray type move and we've seen how well his "accelerate the rebuild" type moves have gone to date. Stay the course, put feelers out for a young goalie, if a good one becomes available for the right price go for it. Mittlestadt for Holtby is an absolute joke of a proposal.

Who said anything about giving up your best prospect? Look at what the Leafs paid for Andersen granted he's had a couple rough games recently but you can argue he's a top 10 goalie and all he cost was the 30th pick and a 2nd that was a year away

 

[is the answer jesus]

Who said anything about giving up your best prospect? Look at what the Leafs paid for Andersen granted he's had a couple rough games recently but you can argue he's a top 10 goalie and all he cost was the 30th pick and a 2nd that was a year away

I mean if that's all it took to get Holtby there might be something there. If they want value like Corey Schneider got they won't get it from Buffalo. If Washington is looking first and foremost to clear cap space for a Carlson deal, then the price on Holtby might be palatable. Revelation was the one that brought up Mittlestadt I missed the part where he included Trotz and Orpik I'm guessing it was sarcasm. For the record I'm not saying Buffalo won't be looking around for another option in net. I think they will, but I don't see them using high end players/picks/prospects to get one. With all the needs this team has it'd be putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Zip15]

The difference between 0.908 and 0.907 is the hill you're going to make this stand on? How about the 20 more Wins Holtby had? I'm sure he did nothing to contribute to any of them.

Holtby also played exactly 1 more game and faced ~80 more shots so maybe it was a little more than just the team.

A team stat like wins is the hill you're going to die on? Weak. Gee, it's almost like the Caps score a ton more goals than Buffalo.

Lehner and Holtby had similar seasons, and Holtby was probably worse and was certainly not discernibly better than a guy the 31st place team may non-tender. We aren't giving up a top asset for Holtby. If some team is dumb enough to give up a 1st rounder for Holtby, then God bless, but it won't be Buffalo.