DarkKnight
Professional Amateur
- Jan 17, 2017
- 32,046
- 60,930
Brad Treliving is doing a great job.
- Thread starter LEAFANFORLIFE23
- Start date
Again, I look at more than a single game, sorry if you have no ability to think past that.
I consider the depth to be the bottom 6, not players like Knies/Pacioretty who are riding shotgun with the best players.
Here is everyone's pace so far for 82 games.
Nylander: 134
Marner: 102
Matthews: 82
Pacioretty: 82
Tavares: 52
Knies: 52
Domi: 41
Robertson: 41
Laughton: 21
Lorentz: 11
Jarnkrok: 11
Holmberg: 11
McMann: 11
You are right, the depth is carrying...
5 years of saying they can't win with this cap structure, it is nice that you have gotten a new talking point, but it must suck that you can't copy and paste your old posts anymore.
It's crazy that the advanced stats nerd community have a platform in this sport.If anyone wants another laugh: Look at what James Tanner the biggest Dubas bootlicker wrote a week before the postseason
Stats say Maple Leafs are the NHL's most overrated team; Regression is coming
The Toronto Maple Leafs are racking up wins at an unprecedented rate (for them). With only four games to go, the Leafs are more or less cruising to their firsteditorinleaf.com
Like can you even believe these turds
Edit: this was also 2 months ago:
Time for the Toronto Maple Leafs to fire Brendan Shanahan and Brad Treliving
Barring an unexpected Stanley Cup win, the Toronto Maple Leafs will fire Brendan Shanahan and Brad Treliving when the season is over. Not only will that be the
DarkKnight
Professional Amateur
- Jan 17, 2017
- 32,046
- 60,930
It's an inch high and nobody takes them seriously except themselves.
notDatsyuk
Registered User
- Jul 20, 2018
- 9,890
- 10,874
Last year the bottom 6 combined for 3 points in 7 games. So far this year they have 11 points in 8 games.
conFABulator
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2021
- 820
- 1,815
While I understand why you would define depth as bottom six forwards, I think it gets viewed differently in the context of this team and dicussion.
The concern was always a lack of depth scoring beyond the core four (and maybe Reilly) in the playoffs. The lack of depth was always in the context of with how much our big five are making, we don't have the cap space to add meaningful depth around them.
For this reason I include Knies, Pacioretty, Domi, and the D behind Reilly in the definition of depth players. Our depth is contributing nicely which doesn't even mention the contributions from Laughton, Lorentz and others that don't always show up on the scoresheet
The Management
Registered User
- Jun 8, 2009
- 1,826
- 2,718
No GM is as bad as their worst deal or as good as their best. I didn't love the Laughton deal. But credit to Treliving for rebuilding the blueline with Tanev, OEL, and Carlo, and for targeting a coach I had also some questions about, but appears to be a steadying presence on the bench.
He also brought in Stolarz. Even moving the C over to Matthews, whether or not that was ultimately his decision, it felt like the right time and Tavares actually looks rejuvenated.
If you can say nothing else, it's that his vision for the team has yielded some early results.
He also brought in Stolarz. Even moving the C over to Matthews, whether or not that was ultimately his decision, it felt like the right time and Tavares actually looks rejuvenated.
If you can say nothing else, it's that his vision for the team has yielded some early results.
If anyone wants another laugh: Look at what James Tanner the biggest Dubas bootlicker wrote a week before the postseason
Stats say Maple Leafs are the NHL's most overrated team; Regression is coming
The Toronto Maple Leafs are racking up wins at an unprecedented rate (for them). With only four games to go, the Leafs are more or less cruising to their first
Like can you even believe these turds
Edit: this was also 2 months ago:
Time for the Toronto Maple Leafs to fire Brendan Shanahan and Brad Treliving
Barring an unexpected Stanley Cup win, the Toronto Maple Leafs will fire Brendan Shanahan and Brad Treliving when the season is over. Not only will that be the
Yeah they won't be firing Treliving at all and honestly IF, and right now it is an if.
But IF they finish off Florida I'm not convinced Shanny is going anywhere either.
I mean, sure, but then should we take away any point they have that was a result of the core 4?
Knies would have 0, assuming Pacioretty would be close to 0.
But even if you include them in the depth scoring, the core 4 and Rielly are doing most of the heavy lifting.
conFABulator
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2021
- 820
- 1,815
It's too bad this divisiveness exists in the fanbase. I started a thread on it months ago (I referred to it as the "identity politics" at play in the Leaf fandom).
Many denied it existed. Many said it was just a small few at each end of the spectrum. Some thought I was referring to actual politics and missed the point.
It seems to get into he way of enjoying the team. Some of you seem more interested in how a result (good or bad) will support your position and narrative. That's too bad, we should all be ecstatic with every good result. It's the playoffs and this is what being a fan is.
My $0.02? As is almost always the case, the truth is in the middle. Dubas said "we can and we will" be able to win with this core four, he may be proven right. The flat cap era slowed the plan to build around the core four and we now seem to be coming to an era where we can build depth around the core. If we win with these four on the roster I don't see how Dubas doesn't get lots of credit for keeping them together.
Having said this, I am a big fan of the changes under Treliving and I am not at all convinced these are there types of changes Dubas would have made. Would Berube be his choice for coach? Would be have changed the captaincy? Would he have signed Stolarz? Tanev, OEL, Domi? Would he have traded top assets for Carlo and Laughton? Would he have NOT signed Marner and Tavares by now?
Who knows? Why think he would have made these types of moves? Anyone who discounts the impact of these moves is kidding themselves to stay on narrative.
Many denied it existed. Many said it was just a small few at each end of the spectrum. Some thought I was referring to actual politics and missed the point.
It seems to get into he way of enjoying the team. Some of you seem more interested in how a result (good or bad) will support your position and narrative. That's too bad, we should all be ecstatic with every good result. It's the playoffs and this is what being a fan is.
My $0.02? As is almost always the case, the truth is in the middle. Dubas said "we can and we will" be able to win with this core four, he may be proven right. The flat cap era slowed the plan to build around the core four and we now seem to be coming to an era where we can build depth around the core. If we win with these four on the roster I don't see how Dubas doesn't get lots of credit for keeping them together.
Having said this, I am a big fan of the changes under Treliving and I am not at all convinced these are there types of changes Dubas would have made. Would Berube be his choice for coach? Would be have changed the captaincy? Would he have signed Stolarz? Tanev, OEL, Domi? Would he have traded top assets for Carlo and Laughton? Would he have NOT signed Marner and Tavares by now?
Who knows? Why think he would have made these types of moves? Anyone who discounts the impact of these moves is kidding themselves to stay on narrative.
Last edited:
conFABulator
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2021
- 820
- 1,815
Why are we taking those away exactly? We have depth surrounding the core four on the past and we are comparing the current group to those groups. I don't recall any particular depth group contributing this much...even the guys who played with our core four.
Okay, let's leave them there, I just don't consider them depth when they get the benefit of the stars.
It still doesn't change the fact that the bottom 6 is losing when on the ice and top 6 is winning.
Use the lines GF/GA, top two lines are +6 each, bottom 6 is negative.
Top lines are carrying, mostly the core 4, not sure there is any way to spin it.
conFABulator
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2021
- 820
- 1,815
Well, one way to "spin" it would be that because we are rolling four lines and three pairs we are two games into Round 2 and we seem to be rested and healthy as a relative statement. Our game is consistent period to period and game to game.
You seem to using points as the only measure and only for the top four, though now you are using +/- also.
Depth is Patches, Domi, Knies and Benoit scoring GWG, it is having games where not one defenseman played over 20 minutes or last night when only one did, it is losing your goalie and not missing a beat. It is cycling three guys through the 2LW spot until finding the fit. It is not knowing which line is 3 and which one is 4. It is having PKers in the bottom six, even our second PP unit (which scored last night) comes from the bottom six.
I have been watching this team for years and in this era, we have not seen this. Two years ago when we beat Tampa in R1, we had 7 guys at 0.5 PPG, this squad has 11 guys at or above that mark.
MSZ
Car guy
Those two guys are desperately waiting for this team to fail so they can praise their idol for years to come.
Two of the lines are consistently losing and two lines are consistently winning, that doesn't scream "depth", when the goal is to win, not just put up points.
What do you want to use?
To get to OT or to get a GWG you need other goals.
We were specifically talking about forwards, I'm happy that the D has been scoring, it is something we've always missed, Rielly is leading the charge like usual and people are still hating him for some reason, but it was needed.
We have the same amount of forwards over 0.5 as that year, plus Robertson who has played 2 games and has 1 point, so I guess we are doing better than that year just because Robertson has 1 point.
For sure, I have said I am happy they are winning, said I am impressed with certain aspects of the game, I thought game 1 against Florida was great, have called Dubas a failure, and definitely hoping for Treliving to fail because I hate watching hockey and don't want to join in on any celebrations.
I am already planning to stop traveling and return to Toronto to finish watching the playoffs next round because I want to cheer against the Leafs with my friends and family...
Discussing hockey and having opposing views does not mean you praise anyone, I know this is hard to understand for some.
Also, 99% of this board will be wrong if they do anything this postseason because most were calling to split up the core and have a different cap structure, I can just join them in cheering on the team despite not being 100% correct all the time.
Last edited:
conFABulator
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2021
- 820
- 1,815
I would suggest we use W's to measure playoff success. I am not sure why we are not including defensive scoring as scoring depth. You seem to be slicing and dicing obvious numbers to continue to support a narrative that I am not even opposing.
The goal is to win a Stanley Cup. We accomplish that by winning four rounds and 16 games. This team is already closer to that goal than any team in this era.
It is possible they got here by having an "easier" first round matchup than in previous years, this is something they earned and accomplished also by winning the division for the first time in the era.
It is fact that this team has accomplished more in the playoffs than any other team in this era. I didn't really see how or why anyone would dispute this or be unhappy about it.
Playoff success is not what we are discussing, we are discussing why.
Wasn't including defensive scoring because the original discussion was forwards.
Depth is not mentioned here.
Depth is not mentioned here.
Depth is not mentioned here.
Again, forward scoring depth was the conversation, my argument is that it is the top players coming through again, and the top two lines driving everything.
Depth has contributed, but not more than most years, it is again, them relying on the top players.
conFABulator
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2021
- 820
- 1,815
When I did mention depth you excluded Knies, Pacioretty, D-Men 2 through 6, and goaltending.
I see what you are saying, but I don't see why we would limit doeth discussions to forward scoring. Teams that win cups have depth top to bottom and contributions from everywhere.
I didn't realize the original dicussion was limited to forwards and if we are talking about winning a cup, I don't know why would limit the discussion to point scoring of forwards on the bottom two lines. There are lots of ways for depth to contribute and I listed them.
As for "why" we are winning, I think it it poise and focus. These don't show up on a score sheet but we are not in panic mode as often, we answer back with big goals quickly, we are not taking too many dumb penalties, we are blocking shots, dumping and chasing, lost two in a row to Ottawa and the team appeared focused for G6 and not distracted by the "noise". We lost a starting goalie and didn't blink.
Again, I think this has everything to do with Berube and that was Treliving's hire.
The team's structure feels better. Outside of Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Rielly, there is a solid veteran group that contributes more than just wisdom which was typically the case in years past.
It is hard to not give Brad credit. I think him bringing in the coach is his best move personally. Chief has really done a good job in my opinion. Better than anyone else has done.
Cant help but get a little teary eyed watching them block shots and hustle back.
Defense has been unbelievable. Looking at the names, you would not expect offense but they have found a way to contribute.
No one in their right mind would have thought we would get the goaltending that we have out of Woll/Stolarz going into the season.
The scary thing is Matthews hasn't really been putting up offense yet. If he starts to cook and no one else drops off things may get exciting.
When our biggest issue is McMann I think we are doing ok.
It is hard to not give Brad credit. I think him bringing in the coach is his best move personally. Chief has really done a good job in my opinion. Better than anyone else has done.
Cant help but get a little teary eyed watching them block shots and hustle back.
Defense has been unbelievable. Looking at the names, you would not expect offense but they have found a way to contribute.
No one in their right mind would have thought we would get the goaltending that we have out of Woll/Stolarz going into the season.
The scary thing is Matthews hasn't really been putting up offense yet. If he starts to cook and no one else drops off things may get exciting.
When our biggest issue is McMann I think we are doing ok.
DarkKnight
Professional Amateur
- Jan 17, 2017
- 32,046
- 60,930
It's hilarious they're still on "offence". My gawd what hilarity.
I would say Willie is the only one doing the heavy lifting in terms of scoring from the Core 5. Reilly is spotting Willie. While MM and JT are stretching. Our Cap AM is just inside the gym.
You should use wins because at the end of the day, ESPECIALLY in the playoffs wins are ALL that matters
usernamezrhardtodo
Registered User
- Mar 26, 2014
- 2,297
- 3,145
I know some would say that getting Ottawa in the 1st rd was a gift...but to me, I was way more worried when Ottawa was skating circles around our players and had the puck in our end for a lot of the game. I feel that FLA is way, way slower and easier to deal with in some ways than Ottawa was. It seemed to me that Ottawa even hit a lot more than FLA is this series.
I was genuinely worried when I found out we were playing a young fast team playing with house money. Kind of like our 2017 team against the Caps. We gave them all they could handle.
notDatsyuk
Registered User
- Jul 20, 2018
- 9,890
- 10,874
Conversely, would the core 4 have as many points without them?
Last year everyone except the core 5 produced 20 points and were a collective -13 in 7 games.
This year everyone except the core 5 produced 36 points and were a collective +4 in 8 games.
Of course the core 4 or 5 are "doing most of the heavy lifting" (I assume by that you mean scoring).
The complaint has been that the supporting players haven't been contributing enough. This year they are contributing more, and more positively.
Users who are viewing this thread
Latest posts
-
-
Series Talk: ECSF: (A1) Toronto Maple Leafs vs (A3) Florida Panthers (TOR Leads 2-0) (60 Viewers)- Latest: Golden_Jet
-
-
-