Brad Treliving is doing a great job.

[William Johnson]

It's so weird. I'd understand their cult if Dubas/Keefe were Hall of Famers or something. But in reality, they weren't great, nor were they awful. They were OK.

Bottom line is, the Leafs failed to do anything in the playoffs. It's a results-based business.

As you say, Dubas was just OK so doesn't merit such blind loyalty. He stopped playing at midget. Family connections got him his job with the Greyhounds. Three years later, Shanahan gave him a job with the Leafs when he was still in his 20s. The rest is well known and the team's lack of playoff success on his watch is his main legacy. He made some good moves, some bad ones, and, in the regular season at least, Dubas' 11 million dollar trio collected their points. Hardly a pedigree or track record deserving culthood. Maybe there are other NHL GMs with 'fans' but I doubt it.

But, it's not, and never has been, really about Dubas. It's about fragile egos that seek some form of validation by incessantly arguing with others, pouring time and emotion into literally thousands of posts telling others what they think is wrong. In their own words, they 'need' to do this -- they 'have to' come in here and correct others.

As you say, it's so weird.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You cherry picked 41 stats to support your ridiculous attempt at discrediting the Leafs win in Game 1. And that’s the problem with relying so heavily on statistics - - you focus on the ones that align with your bias.

...Lol, what? You just revealed that you never even read my post, because my post wasn't even about game 1. I posted it before game 1 even happened, which again, was a game in which we had more expected goals than Ottawa. And there was no bias or cherry picking. I used a wide variety of stats - both basic and advanced - to reflect our overall performance and our performance in each position and game state relative to each of the past 5 seasons, and included both stats commonly used by others and ones that addressed specific claims made by others.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

As you say, Dubas was just OK so doesn't merit such blind loyalty. He stopped playing at midget. Family connections got him his job with the Greyhounds. Three years later, Shanahan gave him a job with the Leafs when he was still in his 20s. The rest is well known and the team's lack of playoff success on his watch is his main legacy. He made some good moves, some bad ones, and, in the regular season at least, Dubas' 11 million dollar trio collected their points. Hardly a pedigree or track record deserving culthood. Maybe there are other NHL GMs with 'fans' but I doubt it.

But, it's not, and never has been, really about Dubas. It's about fragile egos that seek some form of validation by incessantly arguing with others, pouring time and emotion into literally thousands of posts telling others what they think is wrong. In their own words, they 'need' to do this -- they 'have to' come in here and correct others.

As you say, it's so weird.

Amen. It's not necessarily the advanced stats that are the problem with people, it's the narrow-minded, holier-than-thou, "I know more than you", arrogant, condescending attitudes that rub people the wrong way. They know more about winning than a Stanley Cup coach or Stanley Cup winners. And the thing is, they don’t! Winning the Stanley Cup takes more than just looking at stats numbers 20-25 on moneypuck.com.

 

[weems]

Fact!

The Stolarz signing was excellent and all the credit goes to him whether he saw something or he listened to his pro scouts.

This signing was a huge win.

These were the betting odds during the offseason on who'd be our goalie acquisition.

 

[Donnie740]

As you say, Dubas was just OK so doesn't merit such blind loyalty. He stopped playing at midget. Family connections got him his job with the Greyhounds. Three years later, Shanahan gave him a job with the Leafs when he was still in his 20s. The rest is well known and the team's lack of playoff success on his watch is his main legacy. He made some good moves, some bad ones, and, in the regular season at least, Dubas' 11 million dollar trio collected their points. Hardly a pedigree or track record deserving culthood. Maybe there are other NHL GMs with 'fans' but I doubt it.

But, it's not, and never has been, really about Dubas. It's about fragile egos that seek some form of validation by incessantly arguing with others, pouring time and emotion into literally thousands of posts telling others what they think is wrong. In their own words, they 'need' to do this -- they 'have to' come in here and correct others.

As you say, it's so weird.

I get the sense that the adoration is because people see him as a reflection of themselves.

No need to have played hockey, as long as you can spout off about obscure statistics you can be handed a GM job in the OHL in your early 20’s just like Dumbass.

Just keep pontificating those analytics and parlay it into GM of the NHL’s flagship franchise in your early 30’s.

If Dumbass could do it with smoke-and-mirror statistics, there’s hope for any gimp just like him without any tangible knowledge of hockey as long as they study spreadsheets really hard.

 

[notbias]

Which is why people who rely heavily on them are so laughably misguided in their assessments.

Was Morgan Rielly’s fluttering wrist shot from the blueline a “high danger” shot? No, of course not. Was it an “expected goal”? Definitely not.

But the reality is that it found the back of the net. And that’s all that matters.

Maybe the analytic gimps need a new stat of “unexpected goals” to discredit the winning team.

If he took that shot 100 times, how often do you think it'd go in?

If you only want to discuss what has happened and not the game in it's entirety, why post? Just read the box score and don't say anything else.

"Don't discuss hockey" while discussing hockey... such a stupid argument.

I expect to see you in the GDT telling everyone they are wrong when someone says "oh wow, that shot was close", just tell them "in reality it didn't go in, so it wasn't close".

 

[TopCheeseShotta]

I think this team is clearly a mixed bag of Dubie and Tree at this point.. Maybe drop the camp affiliations yall have held for so long, and just understand that this team and this run isn't anybody's singular doing. In a "Brad's doing a great job" thread, let's talk about that. It doesn't have to be a character assassination on people who haven't been here for 2 years or old butthurt opinions about who is in which camp here.

I get that's not nearly as entertaining as slinging mud and picking sides like a politrix debate - but this one should kinda just be focused on all of Brad's moves in aggregate - and keep it movin'..!

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

If you read carefully, I said "use the stats to inform". Nowhere did I say that advanced stats should be ignored. However, they shouldn't be used as the sole factor informing you about the team. Read this last sentence again if you have to because it lies at the crux of what I've been saying. They are a part of the picture when it comes to analyzing a team. You continue to ignore what I and others have been saying. This team is playing a different style of game that doesn't always look good on the spreadsheet. You look solely at that spreadsheet and conclude that this team is worse than other years, that this team is not better prepared for these playoffs, that there aren't other factors just as important as expected goals for, against, etc leading to success for a team.

I saw a team last night that was different, that played with maturity, a maturity honed and developed during this season. A maturity that wasn't measured by the stats you continue to glorify. It doesn't make my opinion or that of others less valid than yours. We all make subjective opinions. Yours is a subjective opinion based on what you think is omniscient information. But, opinions are informed from many sources. You infer that if one doesn't make conclusions based on your sources, they aren't valid. This is inherently faulty thinking. I've stated many facts about this team that you have continually glossed over or minimized to fit your agenda. Try to be more open-minded to the "facts" that may differ from yours.

Great post! I look at it in a similar way. We led the league in 1 goal game wins with approximately .733 winning percentage. Now, you can look at it as we are so poor offensively now that we get caught in 1 goal wins...or...you can look at it from the other point of view....We aren't worried about blowing leads and needing to pile in 4 or 5 goals to make sure we win the game. One side of the argument is just as valid as the other...but I prefer the idea of them being confident and comfortable in tight games which we never were under the previous 2 coaches.

 

[Donnie740]

If he took that shot 100 times, how often do you think it'd go in?

A shot like that will go in way more often that skating around in circles with the puck with the puck will.

Get traffic in front of the goalie, throw shots at the net and then crash the crease - - it’s not pretty on the highlight package and it’s not pretty on the spreadsheet but that’s how you win in the playoffs, my friend.

Bozo The Keefe and Kyle Dumbass could never figure this out, which is why they were such abject failures in the post season.

 

[notbias]

I get the sense that the adoration is because people see him as a reflection of themselves.

No need to have played hockey, as long as you can spout off about obscure statistics you can be handed a GM job in the OHL in your early 20’s just like Dumbass.

Just keep pontificating those analytics and parlay it into GM of the NHL’s flagship franchise in your early 30’s.

If Dumbass could do it with smoke-and-mirror statistics, there’s hope for any gimp just like him without any tangible knowledge of hockey as long as they study spreadsheets really hard.

I am wondering what you think of Treliving since he has accomplished less than Dubas before the NHL, Dubas put together an AHL championship team, Treliving is actually in the NHL because of his father.

I don't think anyone likes Dubas, I think people just defend some moves because they aren't as bad as people make them seem.

I'm more curious why people hate Dubas so much, for example, someone who uses a nickname like Dumbass for Dubas, I assume they are immature and have a miserable life, likely close to the end and have not accomplished anything, therefore they have to try to take down people who have.

A shot like that will go in way more often that skating around in circles with the puck with the puck will.

Get traffic in front of the goalie, throw shots at the net and then crash the crease - - it’s not pretty on the highlight package and it’s not pretty on the spreadsheet but that’s how you win in the playoffs, my friend.

Bozo The Keefe and Kyle Dumbass could never figure this out, which is why they were such abject failures in the post season.

Skating the puck around is not good on the stat sheet... what you just described, getting shots on net and going for rebounds would be great for expected goals, just like you are expecting goals from that kind of play.

 

[sxvnert]

Tonight will show us how different this team actually is.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

Great post! I look at it in a similar way. We led the league in 1 goal game wins with approximately .733 winning percentage. Now, you can look at it as we are so poor offensively now that we get caught in 1 goal wins...or...you can look at it from the other point of view....We aren't worried about blowing leads and needing to pile in 4 or 5 goals to make sure we win the game. One side of the argument is just as valid as the other...but I prefer the idea of them being confident and comfortable in tight games which we never were under the previous 2 coaches.

Great post. Essentially encapsulates what I've been trying to get through to Dekes.

It reminds me of the parable of the three blind men touching an elephant. Each blind man, feeling a different part of the elephant (like the tusk, ear, or leg), forms a distinct and incomplete understanding of what the elephant is like, leading to disagreement and conflict. The moral of the parable is that humans have a tendency to claim absolute truth based on their limited, subjective experience as they ignore other people's limited, subjective experiences which may be equally true. The story emphasizes the need to consider different perspectives and engage in dialogue to build a more complete and accurate understanding of complex issues. In essence, the parable encourages us to be open to different perspectives, acknowledge the limitations of our own understanding, and seek a more comprehensive view of reality

 

[Donnie740]

I am wondering what you think of Treliving since he has accomplished less than Dubas before the NHL, Dubas put together an AHL championship team, Treliving is actually in the NHL because of his father.

Treliving paid his dues learning the game - - first by playing in the minor leagues and then by serving as GM of an AHL team for a dozen years.

It would have been very easy for him to just say “daddy buy me a franchise so I can pretend I’m a GM and president” but he served his time apprenticing to understand the game.

And it shows with his results in Toronto.

 

[notbias]

Treliving paid his dues learning the game - - first by playing in the minor leagues and then by serving as GM of an AHL team for a dozen years.

It would have been very easy for him to just say “daddy buy me a franchise so I can pretend I’m a GM and president” but he served his time apprenticing to understand the game.

And it shows with his results in Toronto.

What results?

Also, as GM, Dubas had more experience before the NHL, did Treliving have any?

They both served as AGMs and ran AHL teams, but Treliving went from no experience to the NHL, Dubas was in the OHL before.

Brad has some terrible playing experience, lets not pretend like it means anything.

 

[Donnie740]

What results?

Also, as GM, Dubas had more experience before the NHL, did Treliving have any?

They both served as AGMs and ran AHL teams, but Treliving went from no experience to the NHL, Dubas was in the OHL before.

Brad has some terrible playing experience, lets not pretend like it means anything.

Not sure how closely you follow junior hockey but I can absolutely assure you that there’s ZERO comparison between being a GM in the OHL and being a GM in the NHL.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Winning a cup would be a great accomplishment (and would certainly be a big positive for Treliving and Berube), and I would celebrate it every step of the way, but there's more to how a GM or coach performed than just their team's playoff outcome, and how it would reflect on Treliving/Berube comes down more to how and why we win in this hypothetical than the simple fact we did.

 

[notbias]

Not sure how closely you follow junior hockey but I can absolutely assure you that there’s ZERO comparison between being a GM in the OHL and being a GM in the NHL.

Closer than you apparently since you think Dubas was handed the GM position and Treliving worked his way up.

I don't care if you think Dubas deserved his position, let's say he didn't.

He still had more experience than Treliving did, that is what the entire conversation has been about.

 

[LeafSteel]

It is called a discussion, if you are not mature enough to handle contradicting opinions, just DM yourself

LMAO

Not mature enough to handle a discussion with differing views. That’s me exactly.

Thank God we have measured and mature folks like you to keep us grounded and showing us how it’s done.

Sorry, I have a No Feeding Trolls policy, and more specifically your opinion doesn’t mean jack-all to me.

You think you are debating but you are actually being toyed with, and you are too dense to see it

I will leave you to your burner account Likes.

 

[Apex Predator]

They just do it for trolling now. A response like that is absurd.

 

[Donnie740]

Leafs take a 2-0 series lead for the first time in two decades - - what a fantastic job by Treliving in putting this team together. Outstanding.

 

[notDatsyuk]

That was a rhetorical question right?

We all know that if they were to win the Cup in a seven game series, instead of being out there celebrating with the rest of us he would be calling in to sports talk radio proclaiming that they should have won in six games, that they really aren't that good because their expected goals for/against %^*$ is lower than his spreadsheet tells him it should be, and he would be pontificating that their win will be forever tainted because of that, all while pulling his goalie and staring lovingly at the poster of Kyle 'Spreadsheet' Dumbass on his bedroom wall.

While also pointing out that the win is entirely because of how well Dubas built the team and how well Keefe turned them into champions who needed nothing more than one more season to gel, and how lucky Tre and Berube were to blindly be gifted the Cup.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The fact is, people hate Dubas and downplay any success this team had under him.

The core couldn't bail him out when they had shaky goaltending.

Which obviously has nothing to do with Dubas.

 

[notbias]

Leafs take a 2-0 series lead for the first time in two decades - - what a fantastic job by Treliving in putting this team together. Outstanding.

They've really outplayed the opposition by a lot, very impressed, next series against Florida may be even easier.

 

[Jojalu]

Which obviously has nothing to do with Dubas.

Goaltending is certainly not an issue anymore

 

[Donnie740]

While also pointing out that the win is entirely because of how well Dubas built the team and how well Keefe turned them into champions who needed nothing more than one more season to gel, and how lucky Tre and Berube were to blindly be gifted the Cup.

I mean, just look at what Bozo The Keefe is doing in New Jersey. And the remarkable job that Dumbass has done in Pittsburgh.