Brad Treliving is doing a great job.

[colchar]

No he doesn't trading Matthews would be the most stupid move in franchise history.

And what, exactly, is Captain Casper giving them?

 

[colchar]

He could have tried before the player's NMC started.

He was in the job for less than a month, ffs.

 

[Lightsol]

If the team doesn't advance, treating Marner as an own rental to get to the second round has got to be the biggest blunder in quite some time for this organization.

If they let him walk, it's a major blunder. I still say resign him (it doesn't have to be a full 8 years, damn it) and look to move Matthews in the offseason. I think still having Marner and Nylander gives the Leafs a chance to convince McDavid to come. If they have just Nylander? He probably resigns in Edmonton (Drai > Nylander).

 

[LaPlante94]

Yes, people are ignoring the actual results of their claims, all context, and the actual reason for the change in the one stat they're cherry picking, to pretend that it means whatever they want it to mean. Hockey is not replaying a level in a single player game, and even if it was, this would be like bragging about getting further on easy mode than somebody else got on hard mode - and before you even beat the level, let alone the game.

6 in 10 now. We faced goaltending like this once under the last duo and we won that series. And that was against the 3x Eastern Champs, not Ottawa getting their first taste of playoffs.

What the heck are you even talking about? I'm not sure where you get these ideas about what "analytics people" think, say, and do, but they're pretty much all wrong. People who utilize analytics are right more often, which is why it's been so widely adopted across the NHL.

I don't think physicality just means goons (in fact, that's the most useless type of physicality that exists), but we're not more physical in any way, and people sure used to care about fighting. Now we have no fights and nobody cares. People used to complain that we needed to hit more. Now we hit less and nobody cares. People used to complain that we needed more pushback after injuries. Now we watch our stars get targeted for intentional injury and our starting goalie get concussed and puke on the bench and nobody cares. Keefe says focus on the game? RAGE!!! Berube says focus on the game? Oh, so smart, so calm, so composed - praise him.

It's not working well though. We should be playing better with the players we have. That's on the coach. And if you think we don't have the right players, he probably shouldn't be trying to force a mediocre system that requires a very, very specific build.

Well first off, it's not me saying that we've been worse defensively. It's the objective data saying that we've been worse defensively. Mostly because our PKing has fallen off a cliff.

Second, the argument was never that we needed giants on defense to score some fluke goals in a small playoff sample against trash goaltending. The claim was that we needed giants on defense to be great defensively, and protect the net front from rebound and high danger opportunities. All things we got worse at. We were also one of the worst teams in the league in goals from defensemen this year, for the record.

And third, I didn't say that we needed to replace them for offense. I've never had an issue with a defence group that leans more towards defense, as long as there is still some diversity and balance in playstyle and skills for different roles, and they actually get good defensive results.

The core 4 have scored and/or gotten a primary assist on over 78% of our goals so far, while providing high end defense and taking on the toughest matchups. At 5v5, we have a 19-9 goal differential with a core 4 member on the ice, and 4-9 without. You still don't understand how massive these players are to our team.

It's quite irrelevant to my case. It would be pretty embarrassing to rely exclusively on something like that to conclude everything about everything.

Stop acting like they aren't carrying and pulling more than their share.

We've always got traffic to the front of the net. That hasn't changed. We've had some tips and bounces go our way in a small sample, and the goaltending we've faced has struggled a lot more with things like positioning and reaction time. They're also just getting beat clean on shots that past goalies saved. You're the one grasping at something that isn't even true to avoid acknowledging the worse goaltending we've faced.

No. It's not how much you score. It's how much you score relative to the quantity and quality of the shots you create. You're the one trying to pretend that scoring is only about the skaters, when it's really the outcome of offensive generation and goaltending performance combined.

Lol. In one sentence you're claiming we're not predictable, and then in the next sentence you're talking about how predictable we currently are. We never "overpassed looking for the perfect shot". In fact, we used to get a lot more shots than we do now.

I don't hate when Marner gets pucks on net. He's going for tips and rebounds, and those are pretty high percentage. Which just goes to show how little you understand the analytics you bash. It's you guys who scream "perimeter!!!" every time a shot is taken outside the crease.

They did though. Analytics loved Knies. I don't know what you were looking at.

Lol. I don't what you were looking at or who you're mistaking me for, but this is all wrong. Liljegren was not even close to my favourite player, and I didn't think he was better than the majority of our D core. I talked a lot about his playoff struggles and was actually in favour of trading him last off-season. I just wasn't a huge fan of our decision to keep him, overpay him, and then ship him off for peanuts and a cap dump without giving him a chance, when we were past any real opportunity for replacement.

What the analytics actually said about Liljegren was that he did really well in a bottom pairing role, and held up decently through certain stretches when he had to take on more responsibility, but was inconsistent whenever the chance came for a bigger role, and he struggled when he would get targeted in the playoffs.

I don't know where you're getting the stuff about replacing him for offense. The issue with Benoit was simply that he was playing badly. If he was playing like he was in 2023/24, it wouldn't have been an issue.

Only you and the others like you ignore the actual results so you can jam your analytics down peoples throats because you'd rather do that then say you are wrong. It's more like you're like those people that'll keep quitting before dying or losing to restart and then when you eventually win you'll act like you did it the first try.

Doesn't change the fact they got to 6 wins their 1st try. Other duo had Montreal and Columbus 2 years in a row and couldn't even do it then so everybody is tired of your excuses/analytics when it comes to blaming hot goalies or playing good teams. Crazy that you go against those in the playoffs though right?

People who use analytics aren't right more than they are wrong and that's been the problem and why people don't care for them as much or at all. Just because you think you're always right doesn't make it true.

We have no fights in the playoffs. Fighting has always went down in the playoffs. Those are still issues because we gave players who people said deserved to be playing more ice time instead of clearing house and bringing in players to play a more physical style. You are comparing a coach and GM that was here for 5+ years to a coach and GM that have been together for 1 season. Pretty clear a lot of these useless players in the bottom 6 will be moved with their lack of playing time recently.

So Keefe was brought in and y'all are are so happy because finally Matthews and Marner escape Babcock and will get to play together and lead us to the promised land with his system that'll take advantage of their talent. How'd that work out huh? Their stats have been pathetic in big games since Keefe took over so I think it's clear what the issue is and always was. This coach coached lesser talent and won a cup so I think his system is just fine. He wants them to play fast and physical. Our top guys aren't fast or physical. Nylander has bought in just fine and looks great. So why can't those 2?

When has the PK actually been good in the playoffs?

Point shots through traffic are considered fluke goals now eh? Interesting. Oh wow! We were at the bottom of the league for goals from defencemen once again. Not like we don't do that every year. Already got 8 these playoffs though which is the most we've had in ever I believe. At least since 2000.

No we've all seen how massive they are to this team. A lot of players who play 20+ minutes a game are usually gonna lead your team in scoring, especially when you got to fill the bottom half of the lineup with players with lower caps so they can all get paid what they want.

You watching this series? You really think they are pulling their share? Let alone more than their share. They're not carrying nothing. 1 goal combined which was a "fluke" goal right.

I'm not grasping at anything. They get shots through traffic and hit the net and score more. You say goalies are just making saves they made before. Like what? You say that and act like you aren't grasping at anything. You still think it is a goalie thing and not a player thing? Boston and Vegas had no issues with Bobrovsky the same year we couldn't score more than 2 on him. Other teams with high end players don't seem to have the same trouble as much as ours do.

They get plenty of good quality shots and still can't score. If almost 25 mil for those 2 can't get you goals from quality chances then wtf we paying them for. I don't care how good a goalie is when they're making that much money.

That's not at all what I said. I said they are scoring more by not being predictable and just sticking to the outside and actually shooting and looking for high tips and all that. They did overpass. They'd be in the slot and pass to the faceoff dot instead of shooting it. They still do it now as well. Also still try to get too cute which leads to goals against or chances against.

We scream perimeter because they just skate around the perimeter and when teams just clog up the slot they don't know what to do so they pass to the point and they shoot it and you scream low percentage shot. It's exactly why their stats in the elimination games from 5-7 is why they have garbage stats.

I was looking at someone who is heavy in analytics. that's what I was looking at.

If you weren't one of them then I apologize. Still doesn't change the fact a lot of analytics people loved him and said he was one of our best defencemen.

Ever since he was signed we apparently needed to replace him though because he wasn't good enough to be in a teams top 6 because his analytics in Anaheim weren't good enough.

 

[LaPlante94]

Treliving had the chance to move Marner, Matthews, and Nylander, so he chose this team.

He comes when all their NMC kick in but he had a chance to move them? Move them to FA so y'all could complain even more?

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

Yes, people are ignoring the actual results of their claims, all context, and the actual reason for the change in the one stat they're cherry picking, to pretend that it means whatever they want it to mean. Hockey is not replaying a level in a single player game, and even if it was, this would be like bragging about getting further on easy mode than somebody else got on hard mode - and before you even beat the level, let alone the game.

6 in 10 now. We faced goaltending like this once under the last duo and we won that series. And that was against the 3x Eastern Champs, not Ottawa getting their first taste of playoffs.

What the heck are you even talking about? I'm not sure where you get these ideas about what "analytics people" think, say, and do, but they're pretty much all wrong. People who utilize analytics are right more often, which is why it's been so widely adopted across the NHL.

I don't think physicality just means goons (in fact, that's the most useless type of physicality that exists), but we're not more physical in any way, and people sure used to care about fighting. Now we have no fights and nobody cares. People used to complain that we needed to hit more. Now we hit less and nobody cares. People used to complain that we needed more pushback after injuries. Now we watch our stars get targeted for intentional injury and our starting goalie get concussed and puke on the bench and nobody cares. Keefe says focus on the game? RAGE!!! Berube says focus on the game? Oh, so smart, so calm, so composed - praise him.

It's not working well though. We should be playing better with the players we have. That's on the coach. And if you think we don't have the right players, he probably shouldn't be trying to force a mediocre system that requires a very, very specific build.

Well first off, it's not me saying that we've been worse defensively. It's the objective data saying that we've been worse defensively. Mostly because our PKing has fallen off a cliff.

Second, the argument was never that we needed giants on defense to score some fluke goals in a small playoff sample against trash goaltending. The claim was that we needed giants on defense to be great defensively, and protect the net front from rebound and high danger opportunities. All things we got worse at. We were also one of the worst teams in the league in goals from defensemen this year, for the record.

And third, I didn't say that we needed to replace them for offense. I've never had an issue with a defence group that leans more towards defense, as long as there is still some diversity and balance in playstyle and skills for different roles, and they actually get good defensive results.

The core 4 have scored and/or gotten a primary assist on over 78% of our goals so far, while providing high end defense and taking on the toughest matchups. At 5v5, we have a 19-9 goal differential with a core 4 member on the ice, and 4-9 without. You still don't understand how massive these players are to our team.

It's quite irrelevant to my case. It would be pretty embarrassing to rely exclusively on something like that to conclude everything about everything.

Stop acting like they aren't carrying and pulling more than their share.

We've always got traffic to the front of the net. That hasn't changed. We've had some tips and bounces go our way in a small sample, and the goaltending we've faced has struggled a lot more with things like positioning and reaction time. They're also just getting beat clean on shots that past goalies saved. You're the one grasping at something that isn't even true to avoid acknowledging the worse goaltending we've faced.

No. It's not how much you score. It's how much you score relative to the quantity and quality of the shots you create. You're the one trying to pretend that scoring is only about the skaters, when it's really the outcome of offensive generation and goaltending performance combined.

Lol. In one sentence you're claiming we're not predictable, and then in the next sentence you're talking about how predictable we currently are. We never "overpassed looking for the perfect shot". In fact, we used to get a lot more shots than we do now.

I don't hate when Marner gets pucks on net. He's going for tips and rebounds, and those are pretty high percentage. Which just goes to show how little you understand the analytics you bash. It's you guys who scream "perimeter!!!" every time a shot is taken outside the crease.

They did though. Analytics loved Knies. I don't know what you were looking at.

Lol. I don't what you were looking at or who you're mistaking me for, but this is all wrong. Liljegren was not even close to my favourite player, and I didn't think he was better than the majority of our D core. I talked a lot about his playoff struggles and was actually in favour of trading him last off-season. I just wasn't a huge fan of our decision to keep him, overpay him, and then ship him off for peanuts and a cap dump without giving him a chance, when we were past any real opportunity for replacement.

What the analytics actually said about Liljegren was that he did really well in a bottom pairing role, and held up decently through certain stretches when he had to take on more responsibility, but was inconsistent whenever the chance came for a bigger role, and he struggled when he would get targeted in the playoffs.

I don't know where you're getting the stuff about replacing him for offense. The issue with Benoit was simply that he was playing badly. If he was playing like he was in 2023/24, it wouldn't have been an issue.

best thread on HF, I love reading this guy dispel peoples dumb leafs narratives lmao. The great Reaves vs Lafferty debate is forever etched in my memory

 

[Dave92]

He managed to get Rantanen for Bitch Marner. Would have been an all time great trade.