Brad Treliving is doing a great job.

hamzarocks

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Jul 22, 2012
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That is somewhat skewed by the fact that two of them are two of the newest contracts (and Nylander wasn't anywhere close to top 10 previously). The other two are leftovers from the previous GM, and we're stuck with them for this year. By this time next year one of them will be signed for much less (if at all), and the other will (hopefully) be signed by another team. Even if there aren't enough new contracts to push Nylander out of the top 10, it will then be a matter of two (of the best players in the league) in the top ten.

I agree that injuries can be a potential problem, but the top three Leafs on that list have missed 20, 4, and 7 games respectively over the last three years (regular season and playoffs) for a total of 31 out of 813 games.

Yes, the salary situation is ugly, but (hopefully) for only one final year of the Dubas disaster.
Nylander isn't "best in the league player"

He isnt a top 15 in the league based of his 98 pt year last season only

He is usually a fringe top 30 player in the league.

We are overpaying/banking on 29-36 year Nylander being better than 22-27 year nylander which likely wont happen for too long

The contract will suck likely from tommorrow as he isnt likely to get 98 pts again and now commands 11.5M AAV.

Not having marner at 12-13M will help if the cap is used well to get strong supporting players in top 9 and top 4D

Nylander has a contract he isnt a capable player of living upto. He's never outside of his first 45 or so games last year shown to be a guy you can have as a top 3 player on your team and win a cup with.

He isnt a Panarin, Kaprizov, Rantanen, Tkachuk level winger, who along with Pasta & Kuch are the only wingers who should be making 11M+
 

80shockeywasbuns

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Feb 12, 2022
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Wrong again. You have no idea what I believe. If you ever actually read my posts, you'd know that I don't believe Dubas is perfect or infallible. I don't believe anybody is perfect. I just don't share your irrational hatred of him, which you falsely equate to "believing he is perfect" in order to deflect from your contradictions and lack of answers. Looking at how and why things happened and considering the context and impacting factors behind it are not "excuses", and attacking people for discussing them is extremely hypocritical considering you bring up the exact same stuff when it comes to Treliving. There are things that a GM is and isn't in control of, and both should be looked at. My methods of evaluation have remained exactly the same with both GMs, while you flipped on every fundamental belief and methodology that you previously argued for, once Treliving took charge. You refused to answer any of the questions asked of you in our earlier discussion, because it would expose those contradictions.

Actually, I identified plenty. You just ignored them. We over focused on snot at the expense of the team. We failed to acquire a top-4 defenseman, but did acquire some of the worst defensive players in the league, and our defensive results and ultimately our overall team quality suffered for it. We shifted cap from defense/goalie to forward, when we should have done the opposite. We made the stupid decision to sign Reaves to a 3 year contract and then traded a younger, cheaper, superior player. Made the stupid decision to sign Klingberg. Signed Kampf to a pricey contract and then created a team that he didn't fit into. Traded assets to have one-dimensional bottom pairing clones on every pairing that sunk our transition ability. We could go on, but I've already been over this stuff like 10 times.

I didn't say that signing Samsonov was stupid. That's the least of the things I hold against Treliving. I just asked you to establish your position on whether it is okay to use hindsight against a GM when the choice made at the time was reasonable. Should we consider the situation and realistic options or just demand results? You didn't answer, of course. You've also failed to explain what exactly about walking into a goalie coming off a good season - that Treliving had the choice and cap space to re-sign or go an alternate route - and a backup signed to a great contract, is bad. Your expectation seems to be something that there are only a handful of in the league and tend to be home-grown over a decade.

Once again, you didn't actually read what I wrote. Certain types of "grit" can be useful, and having some players with "grit" isn't inherently bad. However, abandoning critical roles, attributes, and what a team needs in order to overload on some of the least useful aspects of grit in heavily flawed players we don't need, is an issue. The grit itself wasn't why signing Bertuzzi, Domi, Reaves, etc. was problematic, but the excessive focus on grit, grit, and more grit for grit's sake was stupid. There's a difference between valuing grit and overvaluing grit. It should not be top priority.
love coming back to this thread every now and then and seeing the never ending dekes for days vs. gritheads battle. The Reaves over Lafferty debate is still one of the funniest things ive ever seen on here
 

Matty Sundin

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Jul 18, 2006
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The team last year but a lot more so lesser this year still has Dubas finger prints on it. 2025 off season with all the cap coming off and what he does with it, it will truly be his team.
 

notDatsyuk

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Jul 20, 2018
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Nylander isn't "best in the league player"

He isnt a top 15 in the league based of his 98 pt year last season only

He is usually a fringe top 30 player in the league.

We are overpaying/banking on 29-36 year Nylander being better than 22-27 year nylander which likely wont happen for too long

The contract will suck likely from tommorrow as he isnt likely to get 98 pts again and now commands 11.5M AAV.

Not having marner at 12-13M will help if the cap is used well to get strong supporting players in top 9 and top 4D

Nylander has a contract he isnt a capable player of living upto. He's never outside of his first 45 or so games last year shown to be a guy you can have as a top 3 player on your team and win a cup with.

He isnt a Panarin, Kaprizov, Rantanen, Tkachuk level winger, who along with Pasta & Kuch are the only wingers who should be making 11M+
I didn't say he was the "best in the league". I said Matthews and Nylander were "two of the best players in the league".

I didn't say last year only - over the last two seasons he's 13th in points and 11th in goals (and all the players ahead of him except Draisaitl have been playing on the top line). There are 523 skaters with over 100 games played over the last two years - even by your assessment of "top 30" he's one of the best (94th percentile).

I didn't say he wasn't overpaid. I think all four of them are overpaid, but he and Matthews are less so.

(I would be nice if you only disputed things I actually said.)

He may not be a player you can win a cup with as a top three player (we can disagree), but since he's been one of our best players in the last few playoffs (and easily our best last year), what does that say about the rest of the team, and our chances of winning anything?
 
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Tak7

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I will say it is possible he is doing a GREAT job. In a little over a year, he has certainly put his stamp on this team.
Every GM in the league puts their stamp on their team - if that's the criteria, then 32 GMs are currently doing a great job.

I do like that neither Marner or Tavares has a contract. I would be very OK with KT signing a low-dollar, hometown discount extension any time. I would also be OK with MM doing that but don't see if happening obviously. I like Marner playing for a contract and I like that this will put pressure on him all year to perform, isn't this what we want? Him learning to perform under pressure?
All of this will essentially be mute when both JT and Marner get their extensions within the coming weeks and months.

The regular season does matter. Our playoff fortunes are impacted by who we play in round one. There are a lot of reasons to believe we might get a different regular season outcome and this gives us hope we might get a different playoff outcome.
One scenario no one seems to be entertaining at the moment, which I find quite baffling - is that they take a step back in the regular season.

Paul Maurice took over a 122-point / 58 win President's Trophy winning team, and "turned" them into a 92 point / 42-win Wild Card team. They then went onto 2 finals and won a cup.

I have a feeling that the Leafs will be taking a step back this year, attempting to play a very different type of game under Berube than most of the roster has become used to. They've trended backwards with their record ever since the North Division, in both wins and points, and I expect that to continue as they try to implement a new style.

I'm predicting a 42-45 win /98ish points season for them. That's still divisional seed territory, or wildcard.

He also has had a smaller cap space to work with. Give him one more off season of cap flexibility and we can then judge better on what he does with that space
Which he's responsible for.
 

Suntouchable13

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Dec 20, 2003
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He is a joke. Negotiating with JT already? Yea, at least when the Raptors stuck with some of their core guys a tad too long at least they won before. Leafs keep giving these guys everything they want but they have accomplished squat. Shanahan and Tre are big jokes. Why are they so soft? No contract till you guys win a couple of rounds.
 

acrobaticgoalie

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Jun 18, 2014
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Babcock and Keefe are not the same, Babcock is an ass but he's won everything there is to win.

Keefe hasn't won Jack shit.

And Babcock never had anywhere near the caliber of teams Keefe did in Toronto.

Give Babcock those 2021 and 2023 playoff rosters and both those teams are in the finals.

Babcock has a hall of fame resume

Keefe has won 1 round
Babcock had one of the most stacked rosters ever that had 54 wins that year. Wtf are you talking about lol
 
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Trapper

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Tre is doing the same thing as Dubas. Trying to put different pieces every year around a playoff success challenged core. All why not trading any of them and increasing their salaries. Now Tre and Dubas have different players they like but ultimately it’s the same thing. If that core can’t play in the playoffs you’re done. For every Chicago/Pittsburgh, there is the San Jose Sharks.
 

notDatsyuk

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Tre is doing the same thing as Dubas. Trying to put different pieces every year around a playoff success challenged core. All why not trading any of them and increasing their salaries. Now Tre and Dubas have different players they like but ultimately it’s the same thing. If that core can’t play in the playoffs you’re done. For every Chicago/Pittsburgh, there is the San Jose Sharks.
He signed the two better ones, and (thanks to Dubas) has to wait until next summer to deal with the other two.

Meanwhile he's tried to improve the supporting cast, particularly the D and G.
 
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ACC1224

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Tre is doing the same thing as Dubas. Trying to put different pieces every year around a playoff success challenged core. All why not trading any of them and increasing their salaries. Now Tre and Dubas have different players they like but ultimately it’s the same thing. If that core can’t play in the playoffs you’re done. For every Chicago/Pittsburgh, there is the San Jose Sharks.
Hopefully Nylanders contract ages well.
He's paid as a fulltime employee but we only get parttime effort.
 

ACC1224

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That could be a problem. And I hope we don’t follow it up with a 12/13 to Marner and 7+ to Tavares.
Tavares for sure but at least with Marner you're going to get effort every night.
They really should have moved Nylander when they had the chance, built around the best 2.
Hopefully I'm wrong.
 

Trapper

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Tavares for sure but at least with Marner you're going to get effort every night.
They really should have moved Nylander when they had the chance, built around the best 2.
Hopefully I'm wrong.
I would have no problem with that.
You keep 2.
You build a line around Matthews and the other line around Marner.
I actually really liked the Domi-Bertuzzi-Marner line in the playoffs. The same way I liked Marner with Kadri back in the day. But we always scrap the little things that work in favor of going right back to the 4.
Tavares and 1 of Nylander/Marner should be changed.
 
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notDatsyuk

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Jul 20, 2018
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Tavares for sure but at least with Marner you're going to get effort every night.
They really should have moved Nylander when they had the chance, built around the best 2.
Hopefully I'm wrong.
Marner's "effort every night" is about as productive as Nylander's "parttime effort", so either your assessments are skewed or Nylander is a much better player.

Possibly both.
 
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colchar

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Apr 26, 2012
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He is a joke. Negotiating with JT already? Yea, at least when the Raptors stuck with some of their core guys a tad too long at least they won before. Leafs keep giving these guys everything they want but they have accomplished squat. Shanahan and Tre are big jokes. Why are they so soft? No contract till you guys win a couple of rounds.


Maybe you should send Shanny your resume. Since you're such an expert I expect he'll be tripping over himself to hire you.
 

notDatsyuk

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Jul 20, 2018
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I would have no problem with that.
You keep 2.
You build a line around Matthews and the other line around Marner.
I actually really liked the Domi-Bertuzzi-Marner line in the playoffs. The same way I liked Marner with Kadri back in the day. But we always scrap the little things that work in favor of going right back to the 4.
Tavares and 1 of Nylander/Marner should be changed.
Considering that Tre said last summer that the priority was signing Matty and Willy (and did), and has made no such comment this summer about either Mitch or JT, he might have already decided which two to keep. If so, I think he made the right choice.
 

ACC1224

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Marner's "effort every night" is about as productive as Nylander's "parttime effort", so either your assessments are skewed or Nylander is a much better player.

Possibly both.
More productive every year and there are two ends of the ice that you and your hero often overlook.
Nylander had made strides to catch Marner but since signing seems to have reverted back to his part time self.

Try and be objective.
 
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