Bourque vs Lidstrom: Who's better and why

[Rhiessan71]

this thread is obviously done because you got owned by several posters and realize it is better that you quit while you can.

No, you!



P.S. Try reading the whole thread and not just a page or two

 

[tarheelhockey]

I just want to point out that Lidstrom has a clear edge in Viking Awards, which are much harder to win than Norrises.

 

[SChan*]

btw for those who argue that norrises arent hard to win, if that was the case wouldnt excellent defensemen like Niedermeyer and Pronger have more than 1 norris trophy each then? Thought so. Also scott stevens didnt even manage to win a single one.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I just want to point out that Lidstrom has a clear edge in Viking Awards, which are much harder to win than Norrises.

Yeah and he only has two of those, Sundin has 4, clearly Sundin is the better player and has the better career

 

[Rhiessan71]

btw for those who argue that norrises arent hard to win, if that was the case wouldnt excellent defensemen like Niedermeyer and Pronger have more than 1 norris trophy each then? Thought so. Also scott stevens didnt even manage to win a single one.

And that honestly doesn't strike you as a little odd? Not even in the slightest?
That a guy that good couldn't even win one. What do you think that says about the competition he was up against?
Niedermayer isn't as good as Stevens, nor is Pronger or Chara or Keith yet they all have one.

 

[Hobnobs]

And that honestly doesn't strike you as a little odd? Not even in the slightest?
That a guy that good couldn't even win one. What do you think that says about the competition he was up against?
Niedermayer isn't as good as Stevens, nor is Pronger or Chara or Keith yet they all have one.

You mean Lidström? Because that was Stevens real competition. I wouldnt call Stevens better if you only talk about his time in Washington.

 

[SChan*]

And that honestly doesn't strike you as a little odd? Not even in the slightest?
That a guy that good couldn't even win one. What do you think that says about the competition he was up against?
Niedermayer isn't as good as Stevens, nor is Pronger or Chara or Keith yet they all have one.

thank you for proving my point that it is hard to win a norris trophy.

 

[tarheelhockey]

btw for those who argue that norrises arent hard to win, if that was the case wouldnt excellent defensemen like Niedermeyer and Pronger have more than 1 norris trophy each then? Thought so. Also scott stevens didnt even manage to win a single one.

So... Stevens is worse than Niedermayer in your book?

 

[SChan*]

So... Stevens is worse than Niedermayer in your book?

I am just stating that stevens didnt manage to win one. Whose fault is that?

Lidstrom won it 7 times, that is absolutely incredible. He was runner up several times too.

 

[Rhiessan71]

You mean Lidström? Because that was Stevens real competition. I wouldnt call Stevens better if you only talk about his time in Washington.

Well...considering that Stevens already had 5 of his 7 total top-5 Norris finishes before Lidstrom even had his first top-5 finish...

And that Stevens was already 34 by the time Lidstrom had that first top-5 finish.

Saying that Lidstrom was his main competition is...well...completely absurd.

 

[Hobnobs]

Well...considering that Stevens already had 5 of his 7 total top-5 Norris finishes before Lidstrom even had his first top-5 finish...

And that Stevens was already 34 by the time Lidstrom had that first top-5 finish.

Saying that Lidstrom was his main competition is...well...completely absurd.

Yes he had Norris nominations but he wasnt better than Chara/Pronger by default like you make it seem.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I am just stating that stevens didnt manage to win one.

Okay. I'm asking: is Niedermayer above Stevens in your book?

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

Okay. I'm asking: is Niedermayer above Stevens in your book?

Niedermayer: 4 cups, 1 conn smythe, 1 norris
Stevens: 3 cups, 0 conn smythe, 0 norris

Niedermayer is easily above.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Niedermayer: 4 cups, 1 conn smythe, 1 norris
Stevens: 3 cups, 0 conn smythe, 0 norris

Niedermayer is easily above.

How about Randy Carlyle? Above or below Scott Stevens?

 

[canucks4ever]

And that honestly doesn't strike you as a little odd? Not even in the slightest?
That a guy that good couldn't even win one. What do you think that says about the competition he was up against?
Niedermayer isn't as good as Stevens, nor is Pronger or Chara or Keith yet they all have one.

Um, the general consensus on this board is that pronger is better than scott stevens prime for prime, injuries in his best years are the reason why hes not ranked above stevens. The current hoh thread has them ranked right next to each other.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Wings are 5-7-3 without Lidstrom since the lockout... Without Lidstrom they are not even a playoff team!

 

[seventieslord]

oh my god, what has this thread become??

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

How about Randy Carlyle? Above or below Scott Stevens?

As established last page, the Conn Smythe is perhaps the most difficult to win. Therefore it should rank above the Norris. So Stevens ranks above once you consider the Smythe to Norris differential and his cups.

A more interesting comparison would be Brian Leetch with his 2 Norris and 1 Smythe. Does Leetch's trophy case shatter that of Stevens'?


Randy Carlyle : 1 norris, 1 cup, 0 viking awards
Rob Blake : 1 norris, 1 cup, 0 viking awards

As Blake was on the same team as Bourque for that cup, I think it is safe to assume it was likewise a "bought" cup and counts for less. Carlyle's trophy case shatters that of Blake. But they are better comparisons.

 

[tarheelhockey]

As established last page, the Conn Smythe is perhaps the most difficult to win. Therefore it should rank above the Norris.

When was this "established"?

So Stevens ranks above once you consider the Smythe to Norris differential and his cups.

Al MacInnis. 1 Norris, 1 Smythe, Stanley Cup, Olympic Gold.

Brad Park. 0 Norrises, 0 Smythes, no Cups, no gold.

Who do you rank higher?

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

When was this "established"?




Al MacInnis. 1 Norris, 1 Smythe, Stanley Cup, Olympic Gold.

Brad Park. 0 Norrises, 0 Smythes, no Cups, no gold.

Who do you rank higher?

niedermeyer has 1 norris, bourque 5 and lidstrom 7

thats the most important award, and lidstrom also has a conn smythe which is arguably the most difficult award to win.

bourque was overated by canadian media because he was a good guy, but he isnt better than lidstrom.

Interesting that the Norris is the most important yet the Smythe is more difficult to win. Perhaps I was wrong in this case. Does the importance of the Norris override the Smythe and cups that Stevens has in his favour? I will defer to the experts on this one.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Interesting that the Norris is the most important yet the Smythe is more difficult to win.

The Smythe is hard to win because only 7% of players even make it to the Finals to have a shot at it. And god forbid you're a Bourque or Pronger playing on the losing team, where your chances drop to just about 0% regardless of how you play.

I'm not diminishing the award, but it should never be used to make a league-wide evaluation of who is the best player. It's useful for determining who was most important to a championship roster.

 

[unknown33]

Niedermayer: 4 cups, 1 conn smythe, 1 norris
Stevens: 3 cups, 0 conn smythe, 0 norris

Niedermayer is easily above.

And here is the finally prove that 'award counting' is a huge failure and misguidance in judging players.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

When was this "established"?




Al MacInnis. 1 Norris, 1 Smythe, Stanley Cup, Olympic Gold.

Brad Park. 0 Norrises, 0 Smythes, no Cups, no gold.

Who do you rank higher?

Doug Wilson: 1 norris, 0 smythes, no cups, no gold, no viking awards
Brad Park: 0 norrises, 0 smythes, no cups, no gold, no viking awards


lidstrom’s wilson’s trophy case shatters that of bourques parks. Fact is a fact.

 

[unknown33]

Doug Wilson: 1 norris, 0 smythes, no cups, no gold, no viking awards
Brad Park: 0 norrises, 0 smythes, no cups, no gold, no viking awards


lidstrom’s wilson’s trophy case shatters that of bourques parks. Fact is a fact.

And this is relevant to determine the better player how ...?

 

[tarheelhockey]

JC Tremblay: 5 Stanley Cups, 1 AVCO World Trophy, 0 Norrises, 1 Dennis Murphy Award, 0 Viking Trophies

Scott Stevens: 3 Cups, 0 AVCO World Trophies, 0 Norrises, 0 Dennis Murphy Awards, 0 Viking Awards

Shattered.