Bourque vs Lidstrom: Who's better and why

[Rhiessan71]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Looks that way.

Really, it's our differing criteria for what constitutes Elite that causes the impass.

Your bar goes up and down season to season while mine is more absolute over all seasons and if a player doesn't make my bar, I don't consider him elite, no matter what trophies he garners that season.

Either way, unless you decide to finally go season for season, round for round on Bourque's seasons to Lidstrom's seasons, then you're right, we're done here.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Looks that way.

Really, it's our differing criteria for what constitutes Elite that causes the impass.

Your bar goes up and down season to season while mine is more absolute over all seasons and if a player doesn't make my bar, I don't consider him elite, no matter what trophies he garners that season.

Either way, unless you decide to finally go season for season, round for round on Bourque's seasons to Lidstrom's seasons, then you're right, we're done here.

Either that or I don't think all players today are as terrible as you do.

 

[Rhiessan71]

ok name 10 other guys than bourque or Orr it's jsut a question heck there should be 50 guys since lidstrom wasn't that good in his 1st 5 years.

Weber is on par, Leetch was better, MacInnis was better, Potvin was better, Coffey was better, Chelios was better, Salming was better, Konstantinov was better, Gary Suter was better, Scott Stevens was better.
You're not making this very tough to be honest. It's really not that hard to find guys that were better than Lidstrom prior to their 27th B-days.

Actually Lidstrom was a damn fine player in his 1st 5 years finishing 9th in Dman scoring |(first on his team by a full 26 points over the next 2 Dmen, not to mention a high of plus 36 from Dmen. To be sure Konstantinov had the harder assignments but Lidstrom was already excellent defensively and played quite a bit on the PK as well right from the start).

Some of his 1st 5 seasons can be overlooked by a slight sophomore blip and then the offensive addition of Coffey and the strong defensive play by Vlad but one can make an extremely strong argument that Lidstrom was the best 2 way Dman in Detroit during that time period in both the regular season and playoffs.

Lidstrom showed what he could do offensively in his rookie season and his stats would have been greater if not for the wings getting Coffey for that specific purpose. so the better supporting cast argument actually hurts Lidstrom in this regard for his 1st 5 years, outside of his rookie season.

Feel free to carry on that Lidstrom was some average to slightly above average Dmen during his 1st 5 years, the evidence doesn't support your argument.

In Lidstrom's 1st 5 seasons he was 11th in Dman scoring and look at some of the stud guys ahead of him in their primes or peaks

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

Just for reference he is 2nd in plus/minus, and 7th in PS (just relax TDMM, it's for reference purposes, we know he was playing quality minutes back then).

People who saw him play in Detroit knew what a great young player he was back then and it took the league a while to figure out that while his style was different he was an excellent Dman who later had a huge run on greatness.

All these people you are talking about that saw Lidstrom back then ALL had Konstantinov ranked much higher and ALL the print articles from those very same people talked of Lidstrom in the same breath as Coffey for defensive capabilities.
So NO, that is NOT what they saw of Lidstrom back then, that is pure and utter revisionism!

Against 99.99% of other players, Lidstrom's slow development doesn't matter because he more than makes up for it against them.
Unfortunately, Bourque is part of that .01% where those years DO matter and that my friend is the name of the thread

 

[quoipourquoi]

Either that or I don't think all players today are as terrible as you do.

Is there any defenseman today you would hold up with a Tim Thomas, Sidney Crosby, Henrik Lundqvist, or either Sedin twin?

 

[Rhiessan71]

Either that or I don't think all players today are as terrible as you do.

Why so negative?
Change that to I don't think all players today are as good as you do and I can live with that

All it takes is for one player to come along in the next decade that completely overshadows everyone else like Jagr did in the late 90's to prove me right though.

Crosby's play from last season before he went down more than shows me that there is indeed more levels to be reached in today's league than what we are currently seeing.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Is there any defenseman today you would hold up with a Tim Thomas, Sidney Crosby, Henrik Lundqvist, or either Sedin twin?

Zdeno Chara

Is there any defenseman in the late 90s you'd hold up with Lemieux, Jagr, Forsberg, or Hasek?

 

[Redwingsfan84]

No one else probably watched his tying goal tonight but I wouldn't be surprised if Lidstrom the genius planned that shot wide on purpose so it would bounce back out in front for a chance at a garbage goal (JLA has some of the liveliest boards in the league if not THE liveliest.

Smartest D-man ever.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No one else probably watched his tying goal tonight but I wouldn't be surprised if Lidstrom the genius planned that shot wide on purpose so it would bounce back out in front for a chance at a garbage goal (JLA has some of the liveliest boards in the league if not THE liveliest.

Smartest D-man ever.

I didn't watch it, but bouncing the puck off the back boards into the slot is one of Lidstrom's signature moves, right?

 

[tarheelhockey]

No one else probably watched his tying goal tonight but I wouldn't be surprised if Lidstrom the genius planned that shot wide on purpose so it would bounce back out in front for a chance at a garbage goal (JLA has some of the liveliest boards in the league if not THE liveliest.

Smartest D-man ever.

That's a common play league-wide, and has been for a long time.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Zdeno Chara

I just don't see him belonging in the company of the others. When I see people place him among them, I can't help but feel that people are just shoe-horning a defenseman in there - just to have a defenseman. And that's just one defenseman of the four who receives an All-Star Selection spot each season at the end of Lidstrom's career. Chara is to old Lidstrom what young Lidstrom was to 1998/2000 Ray Bourque. Is there an equivalent of a Stevens, MacInnis, Blake, Niedermayer, Chelios, or Pronger fighting for those spots against old Lidstrom the way they did against old Bourque? Not really.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Is there any defenseman in the late 90s you'd hold up with Lemieux, Jagr, Forsberg, or Hasek?

Yes there is: Chris Pronger.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Is there any defenseman in the late 90s you'd hold up with Lemieux, Jagr, Forsberg, or Hasek?

Nope but that includes Lidstrom at any point in his career. I would however have no issue with slipping a late 80's/early 90's Bourque or an early 90's Leetch into that discussion.

To be fair, with Lemieux, Forsberg, Jagr and Hasek, we are talking about a whole other level, one which none of Tim Thomas, Sidney Crosby, Henrik Lundqvist, or either Sedin twin has achieved.

 

[Hardyvan123]

But this is the thing I don't understand. If you consider Bourque's 98/99 and 99/00 years as on the decline and not elite.
What is the difference between those years for Bourque and Lidstrom's last 2 years???
They are both in decline and both are playing about the same level in those years.

The only difference is that there were guys like Lidstrom, like Leetch, like MacInnis, like Pronger, like Blake to take advantage of Bourque's declining play.
That is NOT the case now.
Lidstrom is elite by default not because of his level of play, which is noticeably lower than 5 and 10 years ago.

go back and look at Bourque's decline starting in 97 to 00 and there were quite a few lesser players than the guys you mention getting more points than him. In 99 his points totals were good, 2nd in fact but his plus/minus took a beating.

even in his 01 resurgence, on an already great team Blake played in 67 games, Mac in 59 and Pronger in 51.

Bourque's decline was much greater and swifter after the age of 35 than Lidstrom's was period.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I just don't see him belonging in the company of the others. When I see people place him among them, I can't help but feel that people are just shoe-horning a defenseman in there - just to have a defenseman. And that's just one defenseman of the four who receives an All-Star Selection spot each season at the end of Lidstrom's career. Chara is to old Lidstrom what young Lidstrom was to 1998/2000 Ray Bourque. Is there an equivalent of a Stevens, MacInnis, Blake, Niedermayer, Chelios, or Pronger fighting for those spots against old Lidstrom the way they did against old Bourque? Not really.

Listen, I agree with you that competition was better then. But there's no way you can spin the competition to pretend that Bourque (who didn't even come close to being a Norris finalist in 3 out of 4 seasons in the late 90s) was that close to what Lidstrom was last year and at the beginning of this year.

For the record, I think Shea Weber = Rob Blake (assuming Weber keeps it up for 5-6 more years) and Chara is probably better than Weber.

Nope but that includes Lidstrom at any point in his career. I would however have no issue with slipping a late 80's/early 90's Bourque or an early 90's Leetch into that discussion.

To be fair, with Lemieux, Forsberg, Jagr and Hasek, we are talking about a whole other level, one which none of Tim Thomas, Sidney Crosby, Henrik Lundqvist, or either Sedin twin has achieved.

You'd seriously take an early 90s Leetch over Lidstrom at any point in his career?

Yes there is: Chris Pronger.

Sure... for 1 season.

 

[Rhiessan71]

You'd seriously take an early 90s Leetch over Lidstrom at any point in his career?

The one that led his team in scoring in the playoffs on his way to the Cup and the Conn Smythe...in a heartbeat, in a heartbeat!

 

[Redwingsfan84]

That's a common play league-wide, and has been for a long time.

How many goals are scored like that per year?
Lids attempts it usually several times per game and I rarely see other teams attempt to do it at his frequency and when they do it is hardly ever met with this same possibilities of success.

I pray he wins the Norris this year (obv. would have to pick up the pace) just so this place can have a meltdown. P-A-N-D-E-M-O-D-I-U-M.
BTW that tying goal helped the wings get their 16th straight at home.

 

[Redwingsfan84]

The one that led his team in scoring in the playoffs on his way to the Cup and the Conn Smythe...in a heartbeat, in a heartbeat!

9/10 you lose to whatever team Lidstrom has on.
In a heartbeat your season would be over, bro.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Weber is on par, Leetch was better, MacInnis was better, Potvin was better, Coffey was better, Chelios was better, Salming was better, Konstantinov was better, Gary Suter was better, Scott Stevens was better.
You're not making this very tough to be honest. It's really not that hard to find guys that were better than Lidstrom prior to their 27th B-days.



All these people you are talking about that saw Lidstrom back then ALL had Konstantinov ranked much higher and ALL the print articles from those very same people talked of Lidstrom in the same breath as Coffey for defensive capabilities.
So NO, that is NOT what they saw of Lidstrom back then, that is pure and utter revisionism!

Against 99.99% of other players, Lidstrom's slow development doesn't matter because he more than makes up for it against them.
Unfortunately, Bourque is part of that .01% where those years DO matter and that my friend is the name of the thread

Two things here first to the Vlad and Paul comments.

Vlad was 3 years older than Nik and played a rough and tumble style, which many voters were drawn to at the time. Vlad was better defensively but really loses out in the two way overall argument, voters aside.

And anyone saying that Coffey and Lidstrom were equals defensively at any time quite simply must have been on some pretty good drugs. I have never seen any such comments and they certainly were not related to how the 2 guys played during Lidstrom's 1st 5 years. Man and you talk about me trying to revise history.

as for your 1st part, not sure if you read the question i asked, it was for any Dman's 1st 5 years (Lidstrom was 25 in his 5 year, I have no idea on why you extending it to other players 27th year) and Nik was pretty damn good in his age 26 and 27 seasons.

I had Leetch, Potvin, Chelios and Coffey better off the top of my head but there isn't a viable argument for Weber, unless you want to bring up his finishing 2nd in the Norris last year but as you admitted it was an extremely weak field right?

Mac and Suter outscore him on raw points but lose out in adjusted points and defensive play over the same 1st 5 year period, although Mac has a pretty good playoff record over that time

I like Scott Stevens a lot but he wasn't better in his 1st 5 years either.

Of course if you can't see how good Lidstrom was in his 1st 5 seasons, I'm pretty sure that you will add Paul Reinhart and Dave Babych to your list of guys who were better...or even Phil Housley perhaps?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Sure... for 1 season.

1998-2001. His prime. When he was healthy (hey, you named Forsberg...), he was in their company. I heard he even won a Hart Trophy.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

1998-2001. His prime. When he was healthy (hey, you named Forsberg...), he was in their company. I heard he even won a Hart Trophy.

Yes, the Hart season was the 1 season I was talking about. Okay, so pretend Pronger doesn't exist. Bourque is still miles behind the Norris finalist in 3/4 seasons, despite the fact that as an older player he should have been getting some "reputation votes." He was still a very good defenseman, but he was not usually talked about in the same way as young Pronger, Lidstrom, or Blake, or older MacInnis or Stevens. That's fine - neither was Chelios. And yes, I remember the late 90s well. Bourque shocked people by how well he played in 2000-01.

 

[tarheelhockey]

How many goals are scored like that per year?
Lids attempts it usually several times per game and I rarely see other teams attempt to do it at his frequency and when they do it is hardly ever met with this same possibilities of success.

Again, it's a common play. I can name Chara specifically as another player who does it very frequently as part of set plays, particularly on the PP when Boston is having trouble finding space in the slot.

As for how frequently it works leaguewide, I don't know and neither do you.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Again, it's a common play. I can name Chara specifically as another player who does it very frequently as part of set plays, particularly on the PP when Boston is having trouble finding space in the slot.

As for how frequently it works leaguewide, I don't know and neither do you.

I didn't even see the play tonight, but Lidstrom is the best I've ever seen at the bank shot off the boards to a teammate. It's more popular now for other defensemen to do it, but Lidstrom has been doing it for years.

I take Bourque over Lidstrom (by a little bit) myself, but you guys are really bending over backwards to take credit away from Lidstrom.

Edit: On the other hand, I have no idea what that one single play has to do with Lidstrom vs. Bourque, haha.

 

[Killion]

Zdeno Chara

... speaks 8 languages.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Two things here first to the Vlad and Paul comments.

Vlad was 3 years older than Nik and played a rough and tumble style, which many voters were drawn to at the time. Vlad was better defensively but really loses out in the two way overall argument, voters aside.

And anyone saying that Coffey and Lidstrom were equals defensively at any time quite simply must have been on some pretty good drugs. I have never seen any such comments and they certainly were not related to how the 2 guys played during Lidstrom's 1st 5 years. Man and you talk about me trying to revise history.

as for your 1st part, not sure if you read the question i asked, it was for any Dman's 1st 5 years (Lidstrom was 25 in his 5 year, I have no idea on why you extending it to other players 27th year) and Nik was pretty damn good in his age 26 and 27 seasons.

I had Leetch, Potvin, Chelios and Coffey better off the top of my head but there isn't a viable argument for Weber, unless you want to bring up his finishing 2nd in the Norris last year but as you admitted it was an extremely weak field right?

Mac and Suter outscore him on raw points but lose out in adjusted points and defensive play over the same 1st 5 year period, although Mac has a pretty good playoff record over that time

I like Scott Stevens a lot but he wasn't better in his 1st 5 years either.

Of course if you can't see how good Lidstrom was in his 1st 5 seasons, I'm pretty sure that you will add Paul Reinhart and Dave Babych to your list of guys who were better...or even Phil Housley perhaps?

Still not sure what this has to do with anything? All I said was that Weber's first 5 years are comparable to Lidstrom's first 5 and that Bourque's first 5 years dwarf Lidstrom's.
Those are my points and they remain un-countered.

As far as you never seeing the comments and articles written by the Wings very own reporters...apparently you only "see" what you want to see.
They were all presented in detail in a previous Lidstrom related thread. One that I am 100% sure you participated in
So if you didn't "see" them, it's because you didn't want to.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I didn't even see the play tonight, but Lidstrom is the best I've ever seen at the bank shot off the boards to a teammate. It's more popular now for other defensemen to do it, but Lidstrom has been doing it for years.

I take Bourque over Lidstrom (by a little bit) myself, but you guys are really bending over backwards to take credit away from Lidstrom.

Edit: On the other hand, I have no idea what that one single play has to do with Lidstrom vs. Bourque, haha.

I'd say arbitrarily giving Lidstrom credit for both inventing and mastering a common play is bending over backwards. Particularly when that involves disregarding how it's common league wide and that yes, other players are good at it too.

I'll change my tune if there's credible evidence that he was the first to introduce it.