Bourque vs Lidstrom: Who's better and why

[tarheelhockey]

Instead of saying who had the better teammates maybe you could get to the point and tell me how having better teammates makes player X a lesser player because player Y didnt.

And that is the fundamental problem with this whole conversation.

Nobody is saying that Lidstrom's teammates made him a lesser player. They did, however, play a very large role in his team-related accomplishments. Ignoring his team situation would be ridiculous. We wouldn't do that for Henri Richard or Grant Fuhr would we?

As far as I can see, Lidstrom is ranked by consensus in the 4-5 range all time (depending usually on what one thinks of Shore). The guys ahead of him are virtually unbeatable. Finishing 4-5 is an extremely high compliment, not something to be taken as demeaning.

 

[jkrx]

I think I already explained that above. I never said it made player X a lesser player. Merely that it allowed player X to play a more conservative supporting offense game as opposed to being relied on to create offense. But since we are talking about it, It certainly did not hurt to have all those Selke caliber forwards either

..and it helped Bourque to have one of the best playmakers and goalscorers ever. It didnt help Lidströms offensive game to be paired up with Coffey and try to be the safety net for Coffeys defensive short comings.

Team strength is not only measured in skill otherwise we would know who would win the cup every season. Besides, is the 08 red wings really better than the '90 Bruins?

This thing about being relied upon to create offense is also something that applies to Lidström as he is the one creating just that for the Wings or do you honestly believe Rafalski and Kronwall would have led Wings to the cup in '08. I do understand why you keep focusing on the late '90s red wings as the basis of your argument of team strenght but he has shown time and time again after that, that he didnt rely on Yzerman/Fedorov.

Selke caliber forwards? At which point did he play with many Selke forwards? If you are going to name them please dont put the players in a bunch from different time periods to try to assert some false sense of team strength like Rhiessan do everytime.

 

[Rhiessan71]

..and it helped Bourque to have one of the best playmakers and goalscorers ever.

Ummm...Oates was a Bruin for a total of 4 2/3's seasons and Bourque was coming off a 94 point Norris winning season BEFORE Oates arrived and only won one of his Norris while Oates was there.
Neely had about 6 top seasons with the B's, injuries taking care of the rest.

It didnt help Lidströms offensive game to be paired up with Coffey and try to be the safety net for Coffeys defensive short comings.

BS! Being paired with Coffey on the PP didn't help his offense and Lidstrom didn't learn anything playing with the guy right...again...BS!

Team strength is not only measured in skill otherwise we would know who would win the cup every season. Besides, is the 08 red wings really better than the '90 Bruins?

Yes, they were. 101 points to 115 with the Wings having more depth at every position except in goal.

This thing about being relied upon to create offense is also something that applies to Lidström as he is the one creating just that for the Wings or do you honestly believe Rafalski and Kronwall would have led Wings to the cup in '08. I do understand why you keep focusing on the late '90s red wings as the basis of your argument of team strenght but he has shown time and time again after that, that he didnt rely on Yzerman/Fedorov.

Again, you're confusing supporting the offense, especially and mostly on the PP with creating offense. There is a difference.
Now I realise that it's arguable that Lidstrom, in a different situation, could of been relied upon to create more offense at even strength. However it's also very likely that his defensive play would of taken a hit for doing it and at the end of the day I do not believe that Lidstrom could of matched Bourque's offense and been as good defensively as Bourque. Ray was the master of risk management.

Selke caliber forwards? At which point did he play with many Selke forwards? If you are going to name them please dont put the players in a bunch from different time periods to try to assert some false sense of team strength like Rhiessan do everytime.

I'm sorry, is mentioning Fedorov and Yzerman from the 90's and then Datsyuk and Zetterberg in the 00's naming them in bunches?
Or how about all 3 of Yzerman, Fedorov and Datsyuk at the same time in '02
Shouldn't be too hard to forget that year. It is the year after all where Stevie Y played out of his mind in the playoff's, blocking shots, winning 60% of his faceoff's and leading the team in scoring. All that, as it turns out, while playing on a knee with no cartilage left...Lidstrom deserved the Conn that year my ass!

 

[lazerbullet]

Or how about all 3 of Yzerman, Fedorov and Datsyuk at the same time in '02
Shouldn't be too hard to forget that year. It is the year after all where Stevie Y played out of his mind in the playoff's, blocking shots, winning 60% of his faceoff's and leading the team in scoring. All that, as it turns out, while playing on a knee with no cartilage left...Lidstrom deserved the Conn that year my ass!

This is wrong on so many levels. First of all... Datsyuk was so far from Selke caliber forward in '02 that it's not funny.

Lidstrom certainly deserved Smythe that year. Yes, Yzerman displayed some heroic hockey. But he was effective one knee also due to Sergei Fedorov. Feds covered a lot for Yzerman that year. If not for Feds then Yzerman is a big liability out there.

 

[Rhiessan71]

This is wrong on so many levels. First of all... Datsyuk was so far from Selke caliber forward in '02 that it's not funny.

Lidstrom certainly deserved Smythe that year. Yes, Yzerman displayed some heroic hockey. But he was effective one knee also due to Sergei Fedorov. Feds covered a lot for Yzerman that year. If not for Feds then Yzerman is a big liability out there.

What???
They weren't even on the same line!
And Datsyuk was very good defensively at that time. He just hadn't found his offensive game yet.

 

[Hobnobs]

Ummm...Oates was a Bruin for a total of 4 2/3's seasons and Bourque was coming off a 94 point Norris winning season BEFORE Oates arrived and only won one of his Norris while Oates was there.
Neely had about 6 top seasons with the B's, injuries taking care of the rest.

a 94 point season where he passed it to Janney.

BS! Being paired with Coffey on the PP didn't help his offense and Lidstrom didn't learn anything playing with the guy right...again...BS!

Now you are confusing learning with being able to produce.

Yes, they were. 101 points to 115 with the Wings having more depth at every position except in goal.

101 points, best in the league and they were best defensively. Better depth at every position? You really do have selective memory or do you trully believe that Lilja and Lebda were better than Hawgood and Beers? I'll give you Draper but then what? Samuelsson? Hudler? Please...

Again, you're confusing supporting the offense, especially and mostly on the PP with creating offense. There is a difference.
Now I realise that it's arguable that Lidstrom, in a different situation, could of been relied upon to create more offense at even strength. However it's also very likely that his defensive play would of taken a hit for doing it and at the end of the day I do not believe that Lidstrom could of matched Bourque's offense and been as good defensively as Bourque. Ray was the master of risk management.

Again you seem to not have watched Lidström alot if you believe that he doesnt create offense for his team.

I'm sorry, is mentioning Fedorov and Yzerman from the 90's and then Datsyuk and Zetterberg in the 00's naming them in bunches?
Or how about all 3 of Yzerman, Fedorov and Datsyuk at the same time in '02
Shouldn't be too hard to forget that year. It is the year after all where Stevie Y played out of his mind in the playoff's, blocking shots, winning 60% of his faceoff's and leading the team in scoring. All that, as it turns out, while playing on a knee with no cartilage left...Lidstrom deserved the Conn that year my ass!

Datsyuk in 02 werent Selke caliber. So basically played with 2 selke caliber players at a time, 3 if you count Draper. So what? Bourque played with Poulin, Middleton, Linseman, Christian, Propp (and Im sure I missed someone) all very solid defensively. Only Habs matched Bruins defense consistantly.

 

[nik jr]

What???
They weren't even on the same line!
And Datsyuk was very good defensively at that time. He just hadn't found his offensive game yet.

yzerman played on fyodorov's RW in '02 playoffs.

datsyuk was below average defensively in '02. only became very good around the time of the lockout. his offensive game was apparent, though.

 

[toob]

What???
They weren't even on the same line!
And Datsyuk was very good defensively at that time. He just hadn't found his offensive game yet.

No hes right (at least partly) that Stevie's mobility wore down as the playoffs progressed and starting in the Colorado series he wasnt as effective defensively though he was still one of the top players offensively in that series. He played frequently on Sergei's wing from that point on. By the finals Yzerman was in really bad shape and didnt even get on the scoresheet much which is where he lost the otherwise in the bag Conn Smythe. I think 2 of his points came in the last game. For that reason if Feds won the Conn Smythe it would be justifiable over Stevie. Lids was behind both those guys.

Datsyuk wasnt great defensively yet.

 

[danincanada]

And that is the fundamental problem with this whole conversation.

Nobody is saying that Lidstrom's teammates made him a lesser player. They did, however, play a very large role in his team-related accomplishments. Ignoring his team situation would be ridiculous. We wouldn't do that for Henri Richard or Grant Fuhr would we?

As far as I can see, Lidstrom is ranked by consensus in the 4-5 range all time (depending usually on what one thinks of Shore). The guys ahead of him are virtually unbeatable. Finishing 4-5 is an extremely high compliment, not something to be taken as demeaning.

The real problem is the double standard Lidstrom faces. Where are the arguments of team strength and not hitting his prime early enough when Doug Harvey's name comes up? Those points just don't seem to matter for Harvey and somehow he is ranked ahead of Bourque at # 2. Look at Lidstrom and Harvey's accomplishments and career paths and they are eerily similar (insert "but Harvey wrote the book on defensive positioning" here).

This of course only applies to a "vs. own peers" comparision because obviously hockey has grown and the talent pool is much much larger now (revenues for the sport have grown just slightly since the 50's LOL). If the anti-Lidstrom crowd were to admit this obvious fact then these arguments wouldn't go very far and they would be forced to admit Lidstrom is probably # 2 all-time. For now it's just fun listening to how all-star selections should be valued more than Norris' and Championships. Never thought I would hear that argument being backed up with such belief.

 

[Hobnobs]

What???
They weren't even on the same line!
And Datsyuk was very good defensively at that time. He just hadn't found his offensive game yet.

Shanahan - Fedorov - Yzerman
Robitaille - Larionov - Holmström
Devereaux - Datsyuk - Hull
Maltby - Draper - McCarty

 

[danincanada]

Shanahan - Fedorov - Yzerman
Robitaille - Larionov - Holmström
Dandenault - Datsyuk - Hull
Maltby - Draper - McCarty

Substitute Dandenault with Devereaux and you've got it. Dandenault played with Duchesne as the 3rd defense pairing in '02.

Just to add what I remember...Fedorov centred Yzerman and Shanahan in all but a few games for that playoff run - when Williams was inserted for Larionov or Datsyuk. Yzerman took faceoffs too but once play started he moved to right wing because his mobility wasn't great for obvious reasons. This is where Fedorov and his great skating ability made up for Yzerman's shortcomings from his bad knee.

 

[Hobnobs]

Substitute Dandenault with Devereaux and you've got it. Dandenault played with Duchesne as the 3rd defense pairing in '02.

Just to add what I remember...Fedorov centred Yzerman and Shanahan in all but a few games for that playoff run - when Williams was inserted for Larionov or Datsyuk. Yzerman took faceoffs too but once play started he moved to right wing because his mobility wasn't great for obvious reasons. This is where Fedorov and his great skating ability made up for Yzerman's shortcomings from his bad knee.

Yea changed it right after I posted.. I believe Williams replaced both at different times.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Substitute Dandenault with Devereaux and you've got it. Dandenault played with Duchesne as the 3rd defense pairing in '02.

Just to add what I remember...Fedorov centred Yzerman and Shanahan in all but a few games for that playoff run - when Williams was inserted for Larionov or Datsyuk. Yzerman took faceoffs too but once play started he moved to right wing because his mobility wasn't great for obvious reasons. This is where Fedorov and his great skating ability made up for Yzerman's shortcomings from his bad knee.

There is no way it was even close to "all but a few games".

Faceoff totals '02 Playoffs
Fedorov 438
Yzerman 380
Draper 332
Larionov 167
Datsyuk 161
Williams 53
McCarty 22

 

[danincanada]

Yea changed it right after I posted.. I believe Williams replaced both at different times.

Yeah and if I remember correctly Bowman even had Williams (the soft rookie) playing centre between Yzerman and Shanahan for 1 game while Fedorov centred Robitaille and Holmstrom. That says something about how ill equiped Yzerman was to skate and play centre right there.

 

[tarheelhockey]

a 94 point season where he passed it to Janney.

Bourque outscored Janney three years in a row, including that one.

It's worth noting that in 1987, Bourque was 23 points ahead of Cam Neely for the team lead. Twenty-three. That is not a complimentary performance, that's a guy flat-out carrying his hockey team offensively. Wayne Gretzky scored 183 points that year, and Bourque still managed to get two first-place Hart votes. Bourque's second-place Hart votes (24) were almost as many as all other players combined (30), and he still managed to also lead in third-place votes. Pretty clearly, in a Gretzky-less world your 1987 Hart winner is Ray Bourque. The man was not just great but dominant offensively, while also being one of the best defensive players in the league.

So let's stop any B.S. about Bourque being carried by Craig ****ing Janney.

 

[danincanada]

There is no way it was even close to "all but a few games".

Faceoff totals '02 Playoffs
Fedorov 438
Yzerman 380
Draper 332
Larionov 167
Datsyuk 161
Williams 53
McCarty 22

Hahahaha, I watched the games, even have some on video, and I already had this disagreement with someone years ago and they pulled out the faceoff count as well. Bowman had a first line of Fedorov between Yzerman and Shanahan for all of the playoffs except for when he rested Larionov or Datsyuk. Ask any Red Wings fan who remembers the '02 run. They both played a lot and shared the faceoff circle...that's what your stats tell you.

 

[Hobnobs]

There is no way it was even close to "all but a few games".

Faceoff totals '02 Playoffs
Fedorov 438
Yzerman 380
Draper 332
Larionov 167
Datsyuk 161
Williams 53
McCarty 22

Ok so fedorov and yzerman shared the faceoff duty.. You still didnt remember that they played on the same line which makes me question that "eye test" ability you have..

 

[tarheelhockey]

The real problem is the double standard Lidstrom faces. Where are the arguments of team strength and not hitting his prime early enough when Doug Harvey's name comes up? Those points just don't seem to matter for Harvey and somehow he is ranked ahead of Bourque at # 2. Look at Lidstrom and Harvey's accomplishments and career paths and they are eerily similar (insert "but Harvey wrote the book on defensive positioning" here).

I don't rank Harvey over Bourque, and I'd be very happy to listen to an argument for Lidstrom over Harvey.

Why don't you start a Lidstrom vs Harvey thread and we can have that discussion.

If the anti-Lidstrom crowd were to admit this obvious fact then these arguments wouldn't go very far and they would be forced to admit Lidstrom is probably # 2 all-time.

You mean #1 all-time, right? After all, the talent and money in the league were much lower for Orr than for Bourque.

 

[Hobnobs]

Bourque outscored Janney three years in a row, including that one.

It's worth noting that in 1987, Bourque was 23 points ahead of Cam Neely for the team lead. Twenty-three. That is not a complimentary performance, that's a guy flat-out carrying his hockey team offensively. Wayne Gretzky scored 183 points that year, and Bourque still managed to get two first-place Hart votes. Bourque's second-place Hart votes (24) were almost as many as all other players combined (30), and he still managed to also lead in third-place votes. Pretty clearly, in a Gretzky-less world your 1987 Hart winner is Ray Bourque. The man was not just great but dominant offensively, while also being one of the best defensive players in the league.

So let's stop any B.S. about Bourque being carried by Craig ****ing Janney.

The day I care about some scattered trophy votes is the day that hell has frozen over. I mean really. 2 first place votes? WOW! If Gretzky wasnt there the season would have been played differently so maybe Janney would have won it.

 

[toob]

There is no way it was even close to "all but a few games".

Faceoff totals '02 Playoffs
Fedorov 438
Yzerman 380
Draper 332
Larionov 167
Datsyuk 161
Williams 53
McCarty 22

While there was classic Bowman line juggling and Stevie played at times with Hull, Robitaille, McCarty, and so on theres no doubt that Feds centered Stevie a lot. This became especially important later on. Stevie was still good on faceoffs (though he declined here too) but he couldnt skate.

This isnt something new i remember Lang not taking faceoffs (Cleary took them i think) but still playing down the middle in 07 a lot.

Think about it this way - why else would Fedorov take more draws than Yzerman who was clearly better at them?

 

[tarheelhockey]

The day I care about some scattered trophy votes is the day that hell has frozen over. I mean really. 2 first place votes? WOW!

2 first place votes over prime, 183-point Wayne Gretzky.

That would be the same number as received by prime, 70-goal, 168-point Mario Lemieux... except Lemieux got less than half of Bourque's overall total.

Did I mention that Bourque's Norris ballot was 52-2-0 that season?

Yeah, I'd say that does count for something when you're making the claim that he was relying on his teammates. Please explain how Bourque relied on Janney for points when he outscored Janney. And be sure to note how many times Lidstrom outscored the best player on his own team, and how that proves he wasn't relying on them as much.

Also, stop and really think about the other players involved here -- Gretzky and Lemieux -- and then consider that Lidstrom's closest run at the Hart had him finishing behind Ovechkin, Malkin and Iginla. Are you seriously, in any way, going to argue that it wasn't a Hart-worthy season?

If Gretzky wasnt there the season would have been played differently so maybe Janney would have won it.

This tells me you know squat about hockey in 1987.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Ok so fedorov and yzerman shared the faceoff duty.. You still didnt remember that they played on the same line which makes me question that "eye test" ability you have..

Maybe...until I went through the box scores for the '02 playoffs and discover that while the 91/19/14 line is one that Scotty liked to use when behind.
That actual line was only together for regular shifts for about half of the Vancouver series, a game or two in the St Louis series, very little in the Av's series and about half of the finals against the Caines.

So again, the "all but a few games" statement is completely false.
In fact, Holmstrom spent more time with Fedorov and Shanahan than Yzerman did.

You DO NOT and CAN NOT end up with those kind of faceoff totals playing on the same line even half the time! It's impossible.

 

[toob]

2 first place votes over prime, 183-point Wayne Gretzky.

That would be the same number as received by prime, 70-goal, 168-point Mario Lemieux... except Lemieux got less than half of Bourque's overall total.

Did I mention that Bourque's Norris ballot was 52-2-0 that season?

Yeah, I'd say that does count for something when you're making the claim that he was relying on his teammates. Please explain how Bourque relied on Janney for points when he outscored Janney. And be sure to note how many times Lidstrom outscored the best player on his own team, and how that proves he wasn't relying on them as much.

Also, stop and really think about the other players involved here -- Gretzky and Lemieux -- and then consider that Lidstrom's closest run at the Hart had him finishing behind Ovechkin, Malkin and Iginla. Are you seriously, in any way, going to argue that it wasn't a Hart-worthy season?



This tells me you know squat about hockey in 1987.

Lemieux didnt play a full season in 87 and it seems like many of the forwards had an off year (i realize 87 was somewhat of a transition year for parity and such). Coffey didnt play the full season either. Who knows what happens if hes playing like he did in those ridiculous seasons in the mid 80s (ofc they could have screwed Coffey over because he seemed to never got the respect he deserved unlike Bourque).

It also isnt a stretch at all to speculate that a lot of those votes for Gretzky go to the forwards behind him if hes gone instead of just defaulting to Bourque.

 

[revolverjgw]

..and it helped Bourque to have one of the best playmakers and goalscorers ever. It didnt help Lidströms offensive game to be paired up with Coffey and try to be the safety net for Coffeys defensive short comings

I don't think it was so terrible to line up on the PP alongside Paul Coffey a few times a game. And Lidstrom wasn't Rod Langway, I'm sure he and Coffey collaborated on quite a few ES scoring plays while they were at it.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Lemieux didnt play a full season in 87 and it seems like many of the forwards had an off year (i realize 87 was somewhat of a transition year for parity and such). Coffey didnt play the full season either. Who knows what happens if hes playing like he did in those ridiculous seasons in the mid 80s (ofc they could have screwed Coffey over because he seemed to never got the respect he deserved unlike Bourque).

My mistake, I was looking at Lemieux's 87-88 instead of his 86-87.

It also isnt a stretch at all to speculate that a lot of those votes for Gretzky go to the forwards behind him if hes gone instead of just defaulting to Bourque.

I know it's sloppy, but if we just slide everyone's 2nds and 3rds up to 1sts and 2nds, Bourque was only 19 first-place votes short of Gretzky's winning total of 255 points. He needed only 19 of 49 available, and was already the consensus best candidate after Gretzky. Seems like a fairly sure bet to me, and it's somewhat validated by his 1990. He was quite clearly a Hart-level player.

Anyway, putting speculation aside I think the point has been made regarding whether his numbers were inflated by the superstar, Craig Janney.