Proposal: Bourque and Dumba to Pittsburgh

[Dipsy Doodle]

1. Montreal has a lot of prospects and wont have room for all of them.
2. Montreal has a ton of picks in this draft and likely wont use them all.
3. Offer sheets should be a last resort thing, if you can make a trade work instead then its preferable. Especially if it preserves offer sheet flexibility elsewhere.
4. I don't really like Dumba as a fit, but Montreal needs a veteran RD placeholder for a season given Savard's retirement and Dumba can do that. You can always recoup some value for Dumba at the deadline when contenders are looking for D depth in case of injuries.

Its not really a big offer.

Rationalizations 1 and 2 are basically justifications for throwing away futures for nothing. "We've got lots" isn't a reason if there's a way to do it without.

Rationalization 3 is odd. Offer sheets are exceptionally rare. You targeting someone else for '25-'26?

 

[Captain Mountain]

Rationalizations 1 and 2 are basically justifications for throwing away futures for nothing. "We've got lots" isn't a reason if there's a way to do it without.

Rationalization 3 is odd. Offer sheets are exceptionally rare. You targeting someone else for '25-'26?

No its not, its a recognition that Montreal has quality picks at the level of prospect/young NHLer you're highlighting, want players who are further along, and at a certain point teams don't have the NHL/AHL roster spots to give prospects a chance to progress. Part of the reason Bourque may be a target is because of how strong Dallas' forward group is.

Pittsburgh has the picks too, you just don't want them to.

If you want a late 1st prospect who is closer to being a contributor and who has shown growth at the CHL and AHL level, then you have to pay comparable value. Dumba may have limited value on his own, but he's not some terrible cap dump considering we're not in a flat cap world.

Maybe Montreal offersheets Bourque, their management suggested we could see more of them league-wide and I suspect Montreal has a chance at convincing Bourque to sign with his home Province team, but its easier to just try to make a trade first.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

A handful of teams out there would offer at least a 2nd+3rd for that package from Dallas

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think people are overrating Bourque and ignoring that Dumba is a negative value asset in this deal tbh

Change the 3rd to a 2nd and I think it's closer, but I don't see them getting back much more than that to get a team to take on Dumba's deal.

 

[Prairie Habs]

Ok.

Montreal offers PIT 2025 2nd, VAN 2025 3rd and Joshua Roy for Bourque and Dumba. Dallas almost definitely says no, but its unquestionably a better offer.

This man does not speak for us

 

[OtherThingsILike]

With the number of teams who will have cap coming up, it won't cost as much to dump cap as it has in recent seasons. The cost to 'dump' Dumba vs. the value of Bourque is more than a 3rd.
I wouldn't be surprised if someone took on Dumba for future considerations, with the hope of 'rehabbing' him and flipping him at the deadline.

 

[SomeDude]

With the number of teams who will have cap coming up, it won't cost as much to dump cap as it has in recent seasons. The cost to 'dump' Dumba vs. the value of Bourque is more than a 3rd.
I wouldn't be surprised if someone took on Dumba for future considerations, with the hope of 'rehabbing' him and flipping him at the deadline.

Yea, this is a pretty badly low ball offer to me.

By all means, if Dallas would accept, but I can see many teams beating it.

 

[MrLunatik]

Hate to break it to everyone but Dumba is an NHL right-shot defenseman which means that he probably has some minimal value and will not be a cap dump

counterpoint

He's a bad RHD, on a poor contract, on a team desperate for cap space.

If Dumba made 1m or Dallas had a bunch of space, I'd agree with you. But the combination of his contract and Dallas being in cap hell will cause Dallas to have to add a sweetener IMO.

 

[pth2]

The trade is to get an NHL ready young player in Bourque, at the cost of taking on a cap dump in Dumba.

Why not explain this from the start ?

 

[MrLunatik]

Why not explain this from the start ?

it was obvious and shouldn't need to be explained.

 

[pth2]

it was obvious and shouldn't need to be explained.

There over 600 players in the league, we can't all know them all and exactly where they are in their careers; a brief explanation as to why this deal makes sense to the OP is just common courtesy.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I honestly don't see how any proposal higher than a 3rd makes sense for a Dumba and Bourque package when a team can just offer sheet Bourque for a 2nd without having to take on Dumba, but to each their own.

 

[MrLunatik]

I honestly don't see how any proposal higher than a 3rd makes sense for a Dumba and Bourque package when a team can just offer sheet Bourque for a 2nd without having to take on Dumba, but to each their own.

A few points that you don't seem to be factoring in...

1. Bourque being offer sheet eligible, doesn't mean he'll want to sign one
2. If Bourque is willing to sign an Offer Sheet, several teams will be sending him one in hope that he picks them.
3. The only way to guarantee your team gets Bourque is by trading for him, which means outbidding teams.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

What are the Pens trying to accomplish with this

To get Bourque with an offer sheet it will essentially cost a 2nd, this way they are only getting him for a 3rd

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

A few points that you don't seem to be factoring in...

1. Bourque being offer sheet eligible, doesn't mean he'll want to sign one
2. If Bourque is willing to sign an Offer Sheet, several teams will be sending him one in hope that he picks them.
3. The only way to guarantee your team gets Bourque is by trading for him, which means outbidding teams.

Unlikely. Offer sheets are rare to begin with, and one for a player who's done as little as Bourque at the NHL level with no draft pedigree is even rarer.

I'd happily roll the dice with an offer sheet with the shortest, highest AAV possible for 2nd round compensation rather than offer some of the packages here.

 

[MrLunatik]

Unlikely. Offer sheets are rare to begin with, and one for a player who's done as little as Bourque at the NHL level with no draft pedigree is even rarer.

I'd happily roll the dice with an offer sheet with the shortest, highest AAV possible for 2nd round compensation rather than offer some of the packages here.

False. Offer sheets are rarely COMPLETED. We don't hear about unsigned offer sheets, but you're in denial of you think an agent won't spread the word if a player is willing to sign one because he wants the player to get as high of an offer as possible.

 

[qcal1427]

counterpoint

He's a bad RHD, on a poor contract, on a team desperate for cap space.

If Dumba made 1m or Dallas had a bunch of space, I'd agree with you. But the combination of his contract and Dallas being in cap hell will cause Dallas to have to add a sweetener IMO.

counterpoint:

San Jose gave up a 5th for Vincent Desharnais at the deadline, Ryan Lindgren and Brian Dumoulin (both without the RD tax) each were moved for 2nds. NHL teams have incoherent valuations of defenseman, Dumba is not making that much money, and there are going to be more teams that need to add cap to hit the floor than get rid of it to stay under the ceiling.

I feel pretty confident that if he were put on waivers, a team would claim him.

 

[M88K]

To Pens: Bourque and Dumba
To Stars: MIN 2025 3rd

Haha no. Bourque would not be the cost to move Dumba.

No team is offering bourque 4m offersheet, and risk screwing up their own rfa negotiations in the process.


Is Pittsburgh going to give tomasino 4m as well because that's what will happen the minute they gift 4m offersheet to a 20p rfa on another team. Especially any rfa with arbitration rights

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Haha no. Bourque would not be the cost to move Dumba.

No team is offering bourque 4m offersheet, and risk screwing up their own rfa negotiations in the process.


Is Pittsburgh going to give tomasino 4m as well because that's what will happen the minute they gift 4m offersheet to a 20p rfa on another team. Especially any rfa with arbitration rights

Offer sheets don't set a standard. If they did, Jarvis would be making about 15m a year after Kotaniemi's offer sheet.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

counterpoint:

San Jose gave up a 5th for Vincent Desharnais at the deadline, Ryan Lindgren and Brian Dumoulin (both without the RD tax) each were moved for 2nds. NHL teams have incoherent valuations of defenseman, Dumba is not making that much money, and there are going to be more teams that need to add cap to hit the floor than get rid of it to stay under the ceiling.

I feel pretty confident that if he were put on waivers, a team would claim him.

That's at the deadline, not over the summer, for a player making half as much.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

False. Offer sheets are rarely COMPLETED. We don't hear about unsigned offer sheets, but you're in denial of you think an agent won't spread the word if a player is willing to sign one because he wants the player to get as high of an offer as possible.

Actually, if we don't hear about unsigned offer sheets, you have no idea whether its false or not. Pure conjecture.

 

[FerrisRox]

Why not explain this from the start ?

That wasn't self-evident? You needed that to be explained to you?

 

[Victor Z]

I think people are overrating Bourque and ignoring that Dumba is a negative value asset in this deal tbh

100% this.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm really confused for the response in here. Are we talking about a different Mavrik Bourque here? He's 23 years old, has only 1 NHL season where he finished with 25 points in 73 games and is a healthy scratch for Dallas right now. I really don't see any way that a team is paying more than a 2nd for his RFA rights, and they can just throw a 2nd round compensation offersheet at Dallas that they likely wouldn't have the money to match.

Dumba has another year at $3.75 million, is also getting healthy scratched by Dallas right now and was horrid when he was playing for Dallas. He's a negative value piece for sure, one Dallas would assuredly want to move considering they only have $5.8 million in cap space with a 15 man roster for next year.

I'm just really confused for why people think that package for a 3rd is somehow this crazy lowball offer. Dallas is both trading a guy they likely can't afford while also getting out of a bad contract they definitely want to move out. Maybe I can see a late 2nd for that, but a 3rd isn't really that far off from that either.

 

[M88K]

Offer sheets don't set a standard. If they did, Jarvis would be making about 15m a year after Kotaniemi's offer sheet.

Jarvis never had a 20p season, he wouldn't use Kotkaniemi as a comparable.
And his pay is closer to 10m than it is to Kotkaniemi. that's a bad example