Proposal: Bos-phi

[riverhawkey91]

Someone link the play Gudas made last night, unbelievable.. Will change your mind on him real quick.

We knew Morin was a project when we drafted him, and now he is probably next up to crack our line-up. I believe he will make a name for himself. Wouldn't move Morin, Sanheim, or Myers.

Potential Top 2 d-men > 3C

I don't understand arguing Morin as a potential top-2 D but then locking in Spooner as just a 3C. Spooner is entering just his second full season in the NHL, but has averaged around .6 PPG during his time here the past 3 seasons playing largely with guys like Jimmy Hayes and Chris Kelly. Right now he's just a 3C as he's still learning defensive positioning, but in reality he's probably a top-6 player with near-elite PP skills going forward.

If Philly fans aren't interested in Spooner because of his defensive deficiencies, that's a valid argument, it's been a problem for Boston which is part of why we're trying him at wing. But it's completely unfair to value him as just a 3C when he's already proven to be more than that.

FWIW, Boston and Anaheim fans here have mostly agreed to Spooner for Fowler straight up, so if you're looking for a value comparison on the defensive side, that's it.

It's always obvious when people are talking about a player that they don't watch. Do you not realize you're embarrassing yourself? At least have the self-awareness to recognize when you're uninformed on a topic and then just don't talk about it until you educate yourself. You can't just use an outdated reputation and pretend you know a player when talking to people who watch him every game. It's really not a tricky concept and yet I constantly see people struggling with it.

I'm assuming you're talking about Boston fan's views of Morin/Sanheim etc, but there's a lot of what you mentioned going on on both sides. Fact is, fans generally can't see all of other team's games, especially when talking about prospects, so stats, projections and reputations are really the only thing to go on when trying to place value.

I won't pretend to know a lot about either of Morin or Sanheim, but just in generalities, prospect #2/3 D-men with potential #1 upside probably are loosely worth established ~50 pt centers with upside, so this really isn't that horrible of a deal.

 

[Tripod]

I don't understand arguing Morin as a potential top-2 D but then locking in Spooner as just a 3C. Spooner is entering just his second full season in the NHL, but has averaged around .6 PPG during his time here the past 3 seasons playing largely with guys like Jimmy Hayes and Chris Kelly. Right now he's just a 3C as he's still learning defensive positioning, but in reality he's probably a top-6 player with near-elite PP skills going forward.

If Philly fans aren't interested in Spooner because of his defensive deficiencies, that's a valid argument, it's been a problem for Boston which is part of why we're trying him at wing. But it's completely unfair to value him as just a 3C when he's already proven to be more than that.

FWIW, Boston and Anaheim fans here have mostly agreed to Spooner for Fowler straight up, so if you're looking for a value comparison on the defensive side, that's it.



I'm assuming you're talking about Boston fan's views of Morin/Sanheim etc, but there's a lot of what you mentioned going on on both sides. Fact is, fans generally can't see all of other team's games, especially when talking about prospects, so stats, projections and reputations are really the only thing to go on when trying to place value.

I won't pretend to know a lot about either of Morin or Sanheim, but just in generalities, prospect #2/3 D-men with potential #1 upside probably are loosely worth established ~50 pt centers with upside, so this really isn't that horrible of a deal.

Is Spooner really "established" though considering he only did it 1 year?

Reality is, Philly needs to fix their defense. They have been drafting in an attempt to make is better. And we have just started to graduate players. Ghost and Provy are here now. Morin and Sanheim are next. Myers after that.

Philly needs to keep the D prospects and let the best rise to the top. And for us, Morin is unique. None of our prospects play with the natural meanness and physicality that he has. He brings what others don't so will be a big part of our future PK and shut down abilities.

 

[Appleyard]

Spooner would probably end up being a luxury tbh.

In the cap world he is probably too good offensively and maybe not good enough on D to be a long term 3C. He would get less minutes than his skill deserves and would not be put in best role to suceed.

Ideal 3C for me is a guy who is + on D and who gets ~30-35 points a year and can match up vs second lines and equal them/win the match-up.


Really I'd be more interested in Eakin from Dallas if they had an inclination to let him go... or get someone like Berglund for 2-3 years as a stop gap for Rubtsov & Vorobyov.


Basically, for me Spooner is a guy who a team who really need a 2C going forward go after and try to slot into that role going forward...

 

[Striiker]

I'm assuming you're talking about Boston fan's views of Morin/Sanheim etc, but there's a lot of what you mentioned going on on both sides. Fact is, fans generally can't see all of other team's games, especially when talking about prospects, so stats, projections and reputations are really the only thing to go on when trying to place value.

I won't pretend to know a lot about either of Morin or Sanheim, but just in generalities, prospect #2/3 D-men with potential #1 upside probably are loosely worth established ~50 pt centers with upside, so this really isn't that horrible of a deal.

Nope, I was talking about the things being said about Gudas.

And yeah, I know this stuff happens by individuals belonging to every fanbase on both sides of every trade on this board... and all of it annoys me.

I don't know enough about Spooner to know if this trade is fair, unfair, way off, or close. I simply don't watch him play enough... so I didn't comment on it or him. That's the way it should be. I'm not super knowledgeable about most non-Flyers players, but at least I can recognize that about myself and stop myself from looking like a fool by commenting on them and being wildly incorrect.

 

[wintersej]

Spooner would probably end up being a luxury tbh.

In the cap world he is probably too good offensively and maybe not good enough on D to be a long term 3C. He would get less minutes than his skill deserves and would not be put in best role to suceed.

Ideal 3C for me is a guy who is + on D and who gets ~30-35 points a year and can match up vs second lines and equal them/win the match-up.


Really I'd be more interested in Eakin from Dallas if they had an inclination to let him go... or get someone like Berglund for 2-3 years as a stop gap for Rubtsov & Vorobyov.


Basically, for me Spooner is a guy who a team who really need a 2C going forward go after and try to slot into that role going forward...

This is an extremely reasonable post. Spooner needs to play top 6 mins with his skills, especially given the salary bump he will get next season. That's why Boston is trying him at LW as he obviously isn't going to supplant Bergeron or Krejci. Well, offensively, I have no doubts he would put up numbers similar to Krejci given Krejci's minutes and linemates...but he won't get that chance under Julien at center. No reason for Philly to make this deal, and, if Boston was going to move Spooner, they shouldn't be looking to add a D prospect.

 

[riverhawkey91]

Is Spooner really "established" though considering he only did it 1 year?

I think he's established himself. He may have only done it in one full season, but in two other 1/3 seasons, he averaged the same scoring rate, so I think it's fair to call him a 50-pt player in that role. Given the role and time-on-ice of a top 6 player though, I think he's capable of more than that.

As for the rest, obviously we're trying to fix our defense too so that view is perfectly understandable. I think OP was just assuming you had too many good D prospects and not enough slots left, so trading from a strength for something you need might make sense.

Spooner would probably end up being a luxury tbh.

In the cap world he is probably too good offensively and maybe not good enough on D to be a long term 3C. He would get less minutes than his skill deserves and would not be put in best role to suceed.

Basically, for me Spooner is a guy who a team who really need a 2C going forward go after and try to slot into that role going forward...

That's fair, I guess it'll come down to what he gets paid on his next deal. I agree that Spooner is probably a 2C for somebody going forward, but I'm not sure he'll be paid like one yet, so financially he could continue to be a steal moneywise. If you can get a 2C for 3C money, I think that makes him even more valuable. However, I think you're probably right that Philly wouldn't be the offense to maximize his skillset just based on who you already have.

This is an extremely reasonable post. Spooner needs to play top 6 mins with his skills, especially given the salary bump he will get next season. That's why Boston is trying him at LW as he obviously isn't going to supplant Bergeron or Krejci. Well, offensively, I have no doubts he would put up numbers similar to Krejci given Krejci's minutes and linemates...but he won't get that chance under Julien at center. No reason for Philly to make this deal, and, if Boston was going to move Spooner, they shouldn't be looking to add a D prospect.

This is where I'm at with him. I think he'd flourish there if we gave him the shot, but there's just no way in a Julien offense barring injury, and we don't have the 3rd liners available to showcase him right now. I'd say they should really be looking to add an established defenseman for him, but I'd still probably take a blue-chip D prospect if I were Boston. I love Chara and all, but realistically he's the only reason we're still aiming for the window we are.

 

[riverhawkey91]

Nope, I was talking about the things being said about Gudas.

And yeah, I know this stuff happens by individuals belonging to every fanbase on both sides of every trade on this board... and all of it annoys me.

I don't know enough about Spooner to know if this trade is fair, unfair, way off, or close. I simply don't watch him play enough... so I didn't comment on it or him. That's the way it should be. I'm not super knowledgeable about most non-Flyers players, but at least I can recognize that about myself and stop myself from looking like a fool by commenting on them and being wildly incorrect.

Got it, sorry then. I think Gudas is a bit of a tough case because people really only tend to see/hear all the bad stuff revolving around him lately rather than all the good he's doing for you on D...especially for Bruins fans given his suspension for the hit on Czarnik.

I get what you're saying and definitely think people should have some idea of what they're talking about before they comment, but realistically this is still just a message board. If consistently watching players from other teams and knowing all about them and their futures were a requirement here, there probably wouldn't be any posts on the forum. Ideally I'm sure we'd all love to have the time to watch all of the games in the NHL, but that's just not realistic.

I do think you're underestimating how much you can learn about a player simply through statistics without actually watching them though. Spooner is a great example of this -- his regular stats show he's a good offensive player who excels at the PP in a limited role (3rd line), while his advanced stats show he's currently a defensive liability and not great at possession. You'll see the same thing watching him play...about the only things the stats can't show are how fast he is and how good his vision can be.

 

[Striiker]

Got it, sorry then. I think Gudas is a bit of a tough case because people really only tend to see/hear all the bad stuff revolving around him lately rather than all the good he's doing for you on D...especially for Bruins fans given his suspension for the hit on Czarnik.

I get what you're saying and definitely think people should have some idea of what they're talking about before they comment, but realistically this is still just a message board. If consistently watching players from other teams and knowing all about them and their futures were a requirement here, there probably wouldn't be any posts on the forum. Ideally I'm sure we'd all love to have the time to watch all of the games in the NHL, but that's just not realistic.

I do think you're underestimating how much you can learn about a player simply through statistics without actually watching them though. Spooner is a great example of this -- his regular stats show he's a good offensive player who excels at the PP in a limited role (3rd line), while his advanced stats show he's currently a defensive liability and not great at possession. You'll see the same thing watching him play...about the only things the stats can't show are how fast he is and how good his vision can be.

Of course, I'm not expecting everyone to know everything or saying that you can't speak about a player unless you know everything about them. I'm just saying that posts like this one below...

I don't think he is an upgrade on MQuaid or Miller. He's the same player. He is not a top 4 guy. He's a guy that I know some BOS fans would love, but his style is not a match for the current NHL. I don't need to see another gritty, tough, stay at home guy who stays at home because he isn't mobile or skilled enough to leave the home.

No place for him or his contract on this team.

... shows he doesn't know anything about Gudas but is still speaking so definitively.

Gudas isn't one of those stay-at-home pylons that tries to muscle people around in the dzone and then is 100% useless with the puck on his stick or when he's in the neutral or offensive zone. His skating is nowhere near a liability, he makes great breakout passes, has a booming shot, and is just generally a smart player all around the ice who doesn't make you think "what the **** is Gudas doing there?!" (with the exception of his self control when hitting, he definitely can go overboard there). He's nothing like Luke Schenn or Nick Grossmann or any of the other defensemen that fit the mold of what that guy is describing. I have no problem with people hating him for the way he hits, but don't let the dislike distort the evaluation of how he plays the rest of the game.

 

[riverhawkey91]

Of course, I'm not expecting everyone to know everything or saying that you can't speak about a player unless you know everything about them. I'm just saying that posts like this one below...... shows he doesn't know anything about Gudas but is still speaking so definitively.

Gudas isn't one of those stay-at-home pylons that tries to muscle people around in the dzone and then is 100% useless with the puck on his stick or when he's in the neutral or offensive zone. His skating is nowhere near a liability, he makes great breakout passes, has a booming shot, and is just generally a smart player all around the ice who doesn't make you think "what the **** is Gudas doing there?!" (with the exception of his self control when hitting, he definitely can go overboard there). He's nothing like Luke Schenn or Nick Grossmann or any of the other defensemen that fit the mold of what that guy is describing. I have no problem with people hating him for the way he hits, but don't let the dislike distort the evaluation of how he plays the rest of the game.

That's totally fair; I have no idea where that poster developed that view of Gudas but he's nothing like McQuaid or Miller or the guys you mentioned...I'd probably put him right around a #4, and a solid one at that. To your point, I think people hear what he does and just assume he's one of those type of guys, without taking the time to actually check out his game, which is definitely wrong to do.

I personally would love to have him on the Bruins, and B's fans would probably love him here, especially with how familiar we are with guys that toe the line. Unfortunately, that poster was definitely right in that we couldn't handle that contract for a guy who brings what Gudas does -- that's equivalent to what half of our defense is making combined right now. And, as far as Spooner is concerned, I think we'd be aiming a bit higher as far as a defensive return would go.

 

[Juicy Pop]

I agree with Apple's take; Spooner is great, but he's not the right sort of player to target for a 3C role for any significant length of time. We'd be better served in free agency.

Additionally, I'm not keen on trading either of Sanheim or Morin with the current state of the blue-line.

 

[phlocky]

Agreed.

If there's a D to target it should be Sanheim. Even then, I'd want a D with more experience, as we have our own LD prospects (may not be as good as Sanheim).

Lol, keep dreaming, Spooner won't come close to getting you Sanheim. Yu can't even get Morin or Myers for Spooner.

Let's put it this way, we'll trade to Matt Read (a solid 3rd line guy who can move up the line up if needed) for your best prospect NOT on the roster right now. Does that sound appealing??? Neither does Spooner for Sanheim, go take a hike cowboy.

 

[phlocky]

Boston laughs and says.......Not a chance.

Actually, they'd any of Sanheim, Morin or Gudas for him in a heartbeat and run away laughing

 

[phlocky]

It's always obvious when people are talking about a player that they don't watch. Do you not realize you're embarrassing yourself? At least have the self-awareness to recognize when you're uninformed on a topic and then just don't talk about it until you educate yourself. You can't just use an outdated reputation and pretend you know a player when talking to people who watch him every game. It's really not a tricky concept and yet I constantly see people struggling with it.

Ding, ding, ding, winner winner chicken dinner. Trust me Boston fans, you'd love Gudas and this would be a revisit of the JVR trade all over again for us. You'd win that trade hands down

 

[Tim Vezina Thomas]

Actually, they'd any of Sanheim, Morin or Gudas for him in a heartbeat and run away laughing

They really wouldn't actually. Gudas for Spooner is something I'm not interested in at all.

The other two are prospects with no NHL experience so I'd have to watch them to formulate an opinion. On the surface I'd probably do either one for Spooner.

 

[wintersej]

Lol, keep dreaming, Spooner won't come close to getting you Sanheim. Yu can't even get Morin or Myers for Spooner.

Let's put it this way, we'll trade to Matt Read (a solid 3rd line guy who can move up the line up if needed) for your best prospect NOT on the roster right now. Does that sound appealing??? Neither does Spooner for Sanheim, go take a hike cowboy.

I agree that Spooner wouldn't get Sanheim, but he is also of more value than Read, for certain.

 

[captainpaxil]

Im not sure spoon is the fit even so morin is too high a price for a 3c

 

[Tim Vezina Thomas]

Im not sure spoon is the fit even so morin is too high a price for a 3c

Yeah I think you're right. The ideal trade partner for us would be a team who lacks in the center depth department who has decent depth in the D prospect department.

I think Spooner is worth a prospect in the top four potential category.

 

[riverhawkey91]

Lol, keep dreaming, Spooner won't come close to getting you Sanheim. Yu can't even get Morin or Myers for Spooner.

Let's put it this way, we'll trade to Matt Read (a solid 3rd line guy who can move up the line up if needed) for your best prospect NOT on the roster right now. Does that sound appealing??? Neither does Spooner for Sanheim, go take a hike cowboy.

Again, I don't understand this classification of Spooner. He had 7 less points last season than Read had the last two seasons combined, in his first full NHL season at 5 years younger than Read currently is -- a point total higher than Read has scored in any season in the NHL. How are they even remotely comparable value-wise? Hell, he had more points last year than Couturier has had any year as well, with almost 5 minutes less of TOI than him!

Yes, Spooner is currently a 3C on the Bruins. But he's behind Krejci and Bergeron, both top 20ish C's in the NHL, so that's to be expected. He's most likely a 2C somewhere going forward, and would probably be put there in Philly as well, were he to go there. That's absolutely worth a #2/#3 prospect D from a team loaded with them.

 

[BruinLVGA]

Lol, keep dreaming, Spooner won't come close to getting you Sanheim. Yu can't even get Morin or Myers for Spooner.

Let's put it this way, we'll trade to Matt Read (a solid 3rd line guy who can move up the line up if needed) for your best prospect NOT on the roster right now. Does that sound appealing??? Neither does Spooner for Sanheim, go take a hike cowboy.

While I understand the concept you are trying to say, it would have been better if you didn't attach such a name (Read) to it. Because...

Matt Read: 30 yo, makes $3m, a 25-30 points player whose peak (5 years ago) is lower than Spooner's first full season...
Spooner: 24 yo, makes $0.8m, has more points in his first full season than Read EVER had.

= the fact that they currently hold the same position (3C) in two different teams, doesn't mean that they're on the same level, value wise and/or performance wise.

 

[2020 Cup Champions]

Ding, ding, ding, winner winner chicken dinner. Trust me Boston fans, you'd love Gudas and this would be a revisit of the JVR trade all over again for us. You'd win that trade hands down

TBL fan here, we even loved Gudas when he wasn't as good as he is now. Boston fans would go crazy over him.

 

[Tripod]

While I understand the concept you are trying to say, it would have been better if you didn't attach such a name (Read) to it. Because...

Matt Read: 30 yo, makes $3m, a 25-30 points player whose peak (5 years ago) is lower than Spooner's first full season...
Spooner: 24 yo, makes $0.8m, has more points in his first full season than Read EVER had.

= the fact that they currently hold the same position (3C) in two different teams, doesn't mean that they're on the same level, value wise and/or performance wise.

Maybe Matt Read having his best year as a rookie is an example that Spooner us not guaranteed to replicate his production from last year.



Reality is, Spooner would be an upgrade at our #3 C spot. But Philly does not have the extra assets to trade for him. They need to keep their D prospects to try and fix the defense.

Remember, we currently still have AMac, Streit, Manning and Schultz in our top 7. Fixing the D is priority #1.