Bobby Orr's icetime during his prime

[BraveCanadian]

Green was a non-factor on the powerplay in the 70s post injury from what I know.

68-69 was probably one of his only seasons of note on the powerplay.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Green was a non-factor on the powerplay in the 70s post injury from what I know.

68-69 was probably one of his only seasons of note on the powerplay.

This is true. He had far more PP time in 1968/69 than the year before, or the next two years (when it was essentially zero).

 

[KingGallagherXI]

Someone should actually watch a game in his prime, time his ice time, and assume he played similar minutes for the rest of the season.

 

[seventieslord]

Someone should actually watch a game in his prime, time his ice time, and assume he played similar minutes for the rest of the season.

I would agree with you, if you chose ten games somewhat evenly spaced out throughout the season.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Someone should actually watch a game in his prime, time his ice time, and assume he played similar minutes for the rest of the season.

I agree the only way to know for sure is to watch as many games as possible of his career and time it.. but do those games even exist to watch now?

 

[Iain Fyffe]

I would agree with you, if you chose ten games somewhat evenly spaced out throughout the season.

At least 10. Like I said, much of the "he played 35 to 40 minutes" comes from, I'm sure, his actually playing that much in some games. One game would not do it; ice time can vary quite a bit from game to game, much of it from the amount of PP and PK a team has in a particular game.

 

[doakacola*]

I can't help but feel we are missing something.

I'm sure your model is a reasonable one, but there are so many contemporary citations that talk about the star players playing much more.

Can that many of them have not known how to use a stopwatch?

I know based on the numbers above that anything more than 35-37 minutes a game by Bobby Orr starts to stop passing the smell test as far as production by him on the ice vs. him off the ice goes, but I feel there must be some other factor we are overlooking.

There are so many references to Orr and other contemporary defensemen playing 30-40 minutes a night.

For example here is another article talking about Dave Burrows of the Penguins averaging 30 minutes a game in 1975, and admitting that playing 40 minutes a game like he had two seasons previous would be a bit much for him now:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=djft3U1LymYC&dat=19751014&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (page 13 in the google search)


An article about Bobby Hull in the Hartford Courant Jan 2, 1969:

"Most forwards play about 20 minutes of a game, but the norm for Hull is no less than 30 and often as high as 40. The Black Hawk left winger is so respected.."


Salming NYT Apr 17, 1977:

"I've been playing conservatively all the time anyway because I'm playing so much , maybe 40 minutes a game." (probably a high estimate but by 10+ minutes????)


Lafleur LA Times May 16, 1978:

"At the end of an evening when he has played 35 or 40 minutes Lafleur does not appear exhausted. But is he exhausted? 'No' he says"


Gretzky SI Jan 23 1984:

"Gretzky plays 26 to 28 minutes per game skating a regular shift, killing penalties and working the power plays."


Orr The Windsor Star Apr 17 1970:

"It seems he's on the ice for 50 minutes a game" - Giacomin (obvious exaggeration)


Even guys who are obviously injured:


Brad Park The Montreal Gazette May 6, 1976:

"Despite a grievous knee injury that requires hours of ice-packs after the game and during off-days, he has been averaging over 35 minutes a game."

Bobby Orr The Montreal Gazette Nov 28, 1975

"Right from the very first game, he's played something like 35 minutes a game. His knee is getting better every day.." - Cherry

The Michigan Daily May 16 1974:

"His normal strategy of playing Orr and Esposito 40 minutes a game has failed miserably. Both have shown the strain..." (this one is in the playoffs)


Bangor Daily News Apr 14, 1972

"Although bothered by a knee ailment, Orr averaged about 35 minutes a game"


Montreal Gazette Oct 27, 1976 (Orr well past prime after 5 knee surgeries playing with Chicago):

"he plays around 35 minutes a game"


Now obviously some of these might be exaggerated (and some are playoffs) but exaggerated by a full 5-10+ minutes a game on average?

Talk about exaggerations regarding what I underlined.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I think some of you folks are thinking in today's terms too much. Players didn't go all out for 45 seconds back then, like they do today. Sometimes a first line would stay on the ice for minutes at a time and Orr on D wouldn't be facing fresh players every minute.

I have no doubt what so ever that Orr played 30-35 minutes a game easy and 40 or more in the PO's.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Back in 1927/28, when most NHL teams were not yet rotating even two forward lines (rather still using a starters-and-subs system), by my count only five forwards exceeded 40 minutes per game on the ice. And this was a season where teams played an average of 62.2 minutes per game due to overtime.

We know this because ice time statistics were published for that year (New York Times, I believe); someone was actually tracking it rather than guessing at it. These forwards were Frank Nighbor, Howie Morenz, Aurel Joliat, Hec Kilrea and Hooley Smith. If overtime were not played, Joliat and Kilrea surely would not have broken the 40-minute barrier.

Now, in this thread we're discussing a time where teams rotated three forward lines, often with an extra couple of wingers thrown in as well. This is one reason I greet claims of forwards in the 60s and 70s playing up to 40 minutes per game with skepticism. If 40-minute forwards were rare in a two-line game (and it wasn't really a two-line game, more like one-and-three-quarters), I can't see them existing at all in a three-plus line game.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Talk about exaggerations regarding what I underlined.

Gretzky's probably isn't much of an exaggeration, if at all. He played a lot both with the man advantage and killing penalties, and doing both can bulk up your ice time quickly.

 

[overpass]

A quote from 1982 on Gretzky's ice time:

Sather's chief concern, naturally, is keeping Gretzky's skates on the ice. "His presence alone psychs out our opponents," says Sather. "My job is to manipulate Wayne so that he upsets them as much as possible, without wearing him down." Still, Sather regularly calls upon Gretzky to take abnormally long, 1½-to-two-minute shifts, which means he plays 32 to 38 minutes a game. Most first-line centers are on the ice about 22 minutes. Sather also "floats" Gretzky at center with all four sets of wings almost every game. At times Sather has even played Gretzky at wing and once used him as a defenseman. Last week, in a 6-3 loss to Montreal, Canadien Center Doug Risebrough was assigned to cover Gretzky, but Wayne's manipulations nearly drove Risebrough batty. At one point Risebrough went off the ice, on again, off, and on again—all in about 10 seconds. He was leaping over the boards like a man jumping rope, until Referee Andy van Hellemond finally resolved his dilemma by whistling him to the bench.

32 to 38 minutes a game seems a bit high to me, and I believe it's well above what the ice time estimators spit out. But it seems possible that Gretzky played more minutes and scored at a lower per-minute rate in his earlier years, and then when Edmonton provided him with a great RW and second line he played fewer minutes and scored at a higher per-minute rate.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Context

A quote from 1982 on Gretzky's ice time:

32 to 38 minutes a game seems a bit high to me, and I believe it's well above what the ice time estimators spit out. But it seems possible that Gretzky played more minutes and scored at a lower per-minute rate in his earlier years, and then when Edmonton provided him with a great RW and second line he played fewer minutes and scored at a higher per-minute rate.

Overpass you do provide interesting tidbits. Now lets add background and context.

The media report is from the Feb 3,1982 game that the Canadiens played at Edmonton winning 6-3. HSP link below:

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19810552

Canadiens jumped off to a quick lead and were never challenged. Perhaps Bob Berry's best game as a coach.

The media qote that you provide is a textbook example of how easy it is for a coach to get the media to drink whatever flavoured kool-aid he wants to serve.

Context. The Canadiens had four centers playing in the game,all were defensively responsible to defensively elite. Doug Riseborough, Doug Jarvis, Pierre Mondou and Keith Acton plus Rejean Houle and Mark Napier who could play center in a pinch created by the home team advantage in terms of line changes.

Effectively it did not matter to the Canadiens short term who Gretzky lined-up against since a quick change would remedy the situation. If Sather wanted to play games, killing any momentum that his team may have he would be accommodated. More than welcome to coach against himself.Of course this does not make a good story.

If you run the numbers against the 32-38 minute estimate you get +/- 15 minutes per center which in terms of stamina would be hard for a player playing 32-38 minutes regularly or occasionally to overcome. This was substantiated by the short shift game which arrived in the league within three seasons.

 

[BraveCanadian]

We definitely need to watch some older games (if we can find full games) and time some of these guys.

The way players are used has definitely changed since the mid-80s and I can't help but think that will affect the estimates which, if I remember correctly, are calibrated against more recent seasons where ice time was tracked.

I would imagine that the introduction of tv timeouts in the early 90s affected how much the front liners could play as well by giving them a free breather now and again.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Practicality

We definitely need to watch some older games (if we can find full games) and time some of these guys.

The way players are used has definitely changed since the mid-80s and I can't help but think that will affect the estimates which, if I remember correctly, are calibrated against more recent seasons where ice time was tracked.

I would imagine that the introduction of tv timeouts in the early 90s affected how much the front liners could play as well by giving them a free breather now and again.

While ideal the practicality is extremely doubtful.A sufficient and complete sampling of games re-appearing out of the blue is not likely to happen. The camera angles limit the ability to track players with a 100% accuracy.

There are alternatives. Learning to read box scores beyond a basic level and studying coaches' line rotations would contribute significantly to connecting the dots.

 

[plusandminus]

Look at post #38

I'm surprised no one commented on my posts here, especially #38. ? By looking about facts we do know, we could draw conclusions about other facts. Then there would be some facts still missing, but I think I did a rather decent job.
Result: ES 23 mins, PP 6 mins, SH 5 mins, Total 34 mins.
I even presented how I came to those figues.
No one responded.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I'm surprised no one commented on my posts here, especially #38. ? By looking about facts we do know, we could draw conclusions about other facts. Then there would be some facts still missing, but I think I did a rather decent job.
Result: ES 23 mins, PP 6 mins, SH 5 mins, Total 34 mins.
I even presented how I came to those figues.
No one responded.

I think you did make reasonable assumptions and I am sure that Iain did when doing his estimates too.

That still leaves us with Iain at roughly 30 minutes a game and your estimate at 34 and anecdotes supporting 35+.

I'm guessing that 33-36 is probably his true average (higher in the playoffs sometimes) but unless someone can get a large enough sample of full games where we can see him all the time he's on the ice, as Canadiens pointed out, we're going to have a rough time proving it.

 

[ssh]

I'm surprised no one commented on my posts here, especially #38. ? By looking about facts we do know, we could draw conclusions about other facts. Then there would be some facts still missing, but I think I did a rather decent job.
Result: ES 23 mins, PP 6 mins, SH 5 mins, Total 34 mins.
I even presented how I came to those figues.
No one responded.

Good post(s). The basic methodology is about the same as with the other estimated TOI numbers that have been quoted here.
The result is quite reasonable and IMO shows that claims above 35 mins are hard to justify.

The two biggest problems with ice time estimations:

Total special teams ice times. This can cause quite big errors especially in cases where a player is always on the ice when there's a PP/PK. Can be improved on.

Big differences in team effectiveness in terms of GF/GA/min between different players on the team. Applies to all situations. This is very difficult to compensate for, can cause errors up to a few minutes per situation (ES/PP/SH) especially if the roster is very unstable (lots of injuries/trades).

 

[Canadiens1958]

Effort

I continued counting, from the last of the tables containing facts...

Boston|78|150|192||399|207||148| 294 | 146 || 80| 8|| 25 | 53
Player|GP|+/-|Tot||TGF|TGA||ES | ESF | ESA ||PPF|PPA||SHF |SHA
Orr |78|124|173||258| 85|| |154-179|47-55|| 79|0-8||0-25| 30
Green |78| 37| 26||125| 99|| | 99-124|79-87|| 1|0-8||0-25| 12
Awrey |74| 40| 29||116| 87|| | 89-114|66-74|| 2|0-8||0-25| 13
Dallas|73| 94| 70||154| 84|| |125-150|48-56|| 4|0-8||0-25| 28
Rick |67| 30| 15|| 63| 48|| | 28- 63|25-33|| 0|0-8||0-25| 15

Since Orr seemed to play basically nonstop in PP, we may assume his PP +/- is 79-8.
We may also think that other defensemen basically didn't play PP.

Boston|78|150|192||399|207||148| 294 |146|| 80| 8|| 25 | 53
Player|GP|+/-|Tot||TGF|TGA||ES | ESF |ESA||PPF|PPA||SHF |SHA
Orr |78|124|173||258| 85|| |154-179| 47|| 79| 8||0-25| 30
Green |78| 37| 26||125| 99|| | 99-124| 87|| 1| 0||0-25| 12
Awrey |74| 40| 29||116| 87|| | 89-114| 74|| 2| 0||0-25| 13
Dallas|73| 94| 70||154| 84|| |125-150| 56|| 4| 0||0-25| 28
Rick |67| 30| 15|| 63| 48|| | 28- 63| 33|| 0| 0||0-25| 15

Adding ESF for all defensemen gives 299. On the other hand 146*2=292.
These two sums doesn't have to be equal. For example penalized players jump into the play.
If one assume a PK unit of 2 defensemen and 2 forwards, it's not unlikely the penalized player being a defenseman too.
For example, Orr himself had 91 penalty mins.
Btw, if looking at penalty minutes, one should consider that a penalty doesn't necessarily give the opposing team a PP. Often one from each team may get penalized, etc.

We also know from hockey-reference.com, that Orr scored 3 SH goals, while Dallas scored 2. So Orr was on the ice for at least 3, probably far more, SH goals.

Boston|78|150|192||399|207||148| 294 |146|| 80| 8|| 25 | 53
Player|GP|+/-|Tot||TGF|TGA||ES | ESF |ESA||PPF|PPA||SHF |SHA
Orr |78|124|173||258| 85|| |154-176| 47|| 79| 8||3-25| 30
Green |78| 37| 26||125| 99|| | 99-124| 87|| 1| 0||0-25| 12
Awrey |74| 40| 29||116| 87|| | 89-114| 74|| 2| 0||0-25| 13
Dallas|73| 94| 70||154| 84|| |125-148| 56|| 4| 0||2-25| 28
Rick |67| 30| 15|| 63| 48|| | 28- 63| 33|| 0| 0||0-25| 15

We know that forwards Westfall, Marcotte, Sandersen and Esposito scored 7+6+6+1 = 20 SH goals.
But we have no idea which defensemen was on the ice.
Orr and Dallas seems to have been in for the most goals against on SH.
I am tempted to make guesses, assuming a pair of defensemen usually played SH.

Boston|78|150|192||399|207||148| 294 |146|| 80| 8|| 25 | 53
Player|GP|+/-|Tot||TGF|TGA||ES | ESF |ESA||PPF|PPA||SHF |SHA
Orr |78|124|173||258| 85|| |154-164| 47|| 79| 8||15-25| 30
Green |78| 37| 26||125| 99|| | 99-112| 87|| 1| 0||0-12 | 12
Awrey |74| 40| 29||116| 87|| | 89-102| 74|| 2| 0||0-12 | 13
Dallas|73| 94| 70||154| 84|| |125-135| 56|| 4| 0||15-25| 28
Rick |67| 30| 15|| 63| 48|| | 28- 51| 33|| 0| 0||0-12 | 15

Fine tuned guesses:

Boston|78|150|192||399|207||148|294|146|| 80| 8|| 25| 53
Player|GP|+/-|Tot||TGF|TGA||ES |ESF|ESA||PPF|PPA||SHF|SHA
Orr |78|124|173||258| 85||113|160| 47|| 79| 8|| 19| 30
Green |78| 37| 26||125| 99|| 32|119| 87|| 1| 0|| 5| 12
Awrey |74| 40| 29||116| 87|| 35|109| 74|| 2| 0|| 5| 13
Dallas|73| 94| 70||154| 84|| 78|134| 56|| 4| 0|| 16| 28
Rick |67| 30| 15|| 63| 48|| 25| 58| 33|| 0| 0|| 5| 15

These above guesses are of course questionable.
For example, it seems Orr wasn't on the ice for as many ES goals forward as one would expect, when comparing him to his teammates.
According to the guess, Orr was on the ice for 160 out of 294 ES goals forward, that's only .5442. That corresponds to 25 mins.

But did the team tend to score more in ES with Orr on ice, than without him. Probably. But on the other hand, Orr may have played more versus strong opposition, while his teammates may have played more versus weak opposition. Against weak competition, Esposito and the other guys may still, if they played, have helped the other defensemen stats.

So I choose to guess he played about 50 % of the ES time. That would mean 23 mins.
ES 23, PP 6, SH 5, Total 34.

The effort that went into your research and presentation is laudible but it only supports long established coaching tactics from eras that pre date Bobby Orr.

Ideally a team starts and ends each period with its #1 defensive pairing. So the first pairing gets x + 1 shifts per period while the 2nd pairing would get x shifts per period as long as the game was played with two pairing. the 5th and or 6th d-man /swing man would get circumstantial time dictated by penalties, injuries, scores etc.

The numbers are roughly the same with your presentation contributing a more detailed description of the circumstances - PP, PK and how the minutes were distributed and impacted.

 

[ssh]

The effort that went into your research and presentation is laudible but it only supports long established coaching tactics from eras that pre date Bobby Orr.

Ideally a team starts and ends each period with its #1 defensive pairing. So the first pairing gets x + 1 shifts per period while the 2nd pairing would get x shifts per period as long as the game was played with two pairing. the 5th and or 6th d-man /swing man would get circumstantial time dictated by penalties, injuries, scores etc.

The numbers are roughly the same with your presentation contributing a more detailed description of the circumstances - PP, PK and how the minutes were distributed and impacted.

I'm sure many people here would appreciate it if there was a database of all teams and seasons that detailed the usage of all defensive pairings (as well as forward lines and special teams units) and game to game roster management.

There are or at least have been summaries of shift data (line and pairing combinations) for some recent seasons but there isn't any data available before that. Anecdotes are nice and can be helpful in some cases but people are very poor data input and storage devices. There's no one who can accurately tell the average ice time of a player over the course of 78 games that were played 40 years ago.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Total special teams ice times. This can cause quite big errors especially in cases where a player is always on the ice when there's a PP/PK. Can be improved on.

My estimates calculate ES, PP and PK time separately for each player, if that's what you mean.

 

[ssh]

My estimates calculate ES, PP and PK time separately for each player, if that's what you mean.

If the initial estimates on how many minutes a team spends on PP/PK are off then obviously so are the player TOI estimates which are based on those. That is if the Bruins in 70-71 spent 7 minutes on PP per game instead of 6 then it also follows that Bobby Orr's PPTOI is off by a minute.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

If the initial estimates on how many minutes a team spends on PP/PK are off then obviously so are the player TOI estimates which are based on those. That is if the Bruins in 70-71 spent 7 minutes on PP per game instead of 6 then it also follows that Bobby Orr's PPTOI is off by a minute.

Obviously. But then his ES time is also off by half that in the other direction.

And being off by a minute per game for PP time is rather unlikely.

 

[plusandminus]

Thank you for finally giving feedback to my post. Nice to feel noticed.

I have to say this is an interesting thread, and I also found it very interesting to try to continue on Reckoning's post.

Regarding the quotes presented here from newspapers, etc., my logic says they are probably more accurate than inaccurate. After all, those guys watched the games.

My estimations was based on calculations based on +/- stuff in different situations.
I think we may agree that Orr probably played close to 100 % of all PP time, based on the fact that he was on the ice for close to 100 % of all Boston's PP goals.
I ended up with Orr playing about 50 % of the ES time, which also seems to be in accordance with e.g. Boston likely starting and ending periods with Orr and then playing him about every 2nd shift. (However, shift times may of course have varied.)
The PK time was the hardest for me to estimate.

ES 23, PP 6, PK 5, Total 34...
Of course, like many here have mentioned, it would probably vary.
It would also be interesting to speculate about his median ice time. It's not unusual that players have a few games where they have very few minutes, perhaps getting injured early in the game, or being out for treatment, getting long penalties, etc..
If average time is 34. Then a game with only 30 minutes would need a 38 min game (or two 36 min games) to compensate.

The above may not be as noticeable during the example season, as during seasons where he didn't play in every game. Let's suppose he missed games 34 and 35 due to injury. Then he might have had anything from 1-30+ mins in the game where he got injured.
So, just because coming up with an icetime per game for the total season, doesn't mean a player couldn't - in most games - play even more than that.

I think the true answer may be found not only by finding and watching the games on video/etc.
It could also be a good idea to ask people who definitely should know. Like Bobby Orr himself. Or some other player at the time, either teammate or opponent.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

It could also be a good idea to ask people who definitely should know. Like Bobby Orr himself. Or some other player at the time, either teammate or opponent.

You have to be careful with this, though. During a game, I expect the last thing on a player's mind is trying to keep track of exactly how long he's been on the ice that game. If you ask him to later estimate it, you have no idea how accurate that estimate will be, if he's relying solely on his memory, especially since it's a figure that he wasn't actually keeping track of at the time.

 

[plusandminus]

You have to be careful with this, though. During a game, I expect the last thing on a player's mind is trying to keep track of exactly how long he's been on the ice that game. If you ask him to later estimate it, you have no idea how accurate that estimate will be, if he's relying solely on his memory, especially since it's a figure that he wasn't actually keeping track of at the time.

I understand that may be the case. However, I wasn't expecting the player himself to have skated around with a clock during games. And I know things like these are hard to estimate by oneself. Rather I assumed others may have kept track. If they did, the player himself might have been informed.