Bobby Hull vs. Maurice Richard

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Richard was functionally prohibited from scoring 100 points a year. It didn't occur by anyone in NHL history until after he retired.

The crutch of the Richard argument is two (ignoring cultural stuff)

* he was really good for really long. 14 years as an NHL all star was the non Howe record upon retirement. This includes 6 times as a Hart finalist.
* outstanding playoff resume. His goals vs peers is unmatched in NHL history for playoffs. He has what, 5 times top 2 in playoff scoring? 8 top 3? Clutch goal after clutch goal.
 
Lafleur over Richard on the basis of 100 point seasons...? Yuck...

I also think Jacques Plante should have scored a couple goals to put him over Brodeur...
 
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Lafleur over Richard on the basis of 100 point seasons...? Yuck...

I also think Jacques Plante should have scored a couple goals to put him over Brodeur...
Worth adding to this that Lafleur also has more 100 point seasons than Gordie Howe, even if you include the latter's WHA years. That should really emphasize the flaw in the reasoning.

Don't you hate those bum goalies who don't contribute their fair share of goals?
 
"Obvious by the early 1980s...", you've got to be kidding! I'm willing to bet that there were very few people (fans/reporters etc) who considered Makarov to be better than Kharlamov already in the early 1980s; Makarov's first big season was in 1978—79, and Kharlamov died tragically in 1981, which only elevated his already huge legend. But if you were among those hip people who thought that the young Makarov was already better than Kharlamov or any other Soviet forward ever, good for you... but you were certainly in the minority.

And actually, taken at face value, Kharlamov's international stats are more impressive than Makarov's (clearly better PPG), although a closer analysis gives a different perspective. The Soviet stats hugely favour Makarov, but how easy were they to find before the Internet and some sites that were dedicated to such information (plus how complete the late 1960s/early 1970s assist numbers are)? I don't think I knew much about the Soviet Player of the Year voting either (also favouring Makarov) before the late 2000s/early 2010s.

As far as "everybody saw them play many times" goes, I think you're again talking about yourself! I was born in 1974, so while I definitely watched Kharlamov in the late 1970s and 1980 and Makarov throughout the 1980s, it really didn't make me truly capable of comparing them based on the eye test. Only when I started to acquire old games on VHS/DVD in the mid-2000s, I began to think, "hey, Makarov looks at least as good or even better than Kharlamov"... But that was generally rare at least on THoH, as can be seen from the 2008 Top 100 Players of All Time list (Kharlamov 30th, Makarov 77th, behind e.g. Mikhailov and Peter Stastny, lol):
HOH Top 100 Players of All Time (compiled in 2008)
I think the important thing to note is that when you watched old video of Makarov and Kharlamov, you thought that Makarov was as good or better than Kharlamov. Given that lots of hockey people watched them play in the '70s and '80s, many of these people would have agreed with you....except they agreed with you a long time ago.

Kharlamov was the bigger legend and that hasn't changed.

For me, Makarov was spectacular, and he was the best player - ahead of Gretzky - over the 3 Canada Cup tournaments in the 1980s. Like Kharlamov, Makarov had unbelievable skills (some of which were superior to Kharlamov's), and Makarov was a better all-around player. He was also very level-headed and dependable, and the best-ever exemplar of the Soviet style of hockey.

So, what's your explanation for this clear change, if not the more easily/widely available information and footage (YouTube)?
It's just lack of knowledge, isn't it? For people who watched them play, there's nothing new here; for everyone else, I guess they discovered Makarov finally.
 
This thread got bumped again?

Yeah, I've never really thought about M. Richard vs. Hull Sr. It's interesting how Hull began in the NHL in the very season when Richard was having his last hurrah as a superstar (34 points in 28 RS games, and then 11 goals in 10 playoff games). Richard was 36 by then, and Hull just 18-19. (Is there any video footage of them facing each other from this season?)

So, one guy kind of takes over just as the other guy began to fade.

Having never really seen either guy play, I won't offer any strong opinion about the comparison. But Maurice Richard is somehow a much more likable guy. ; )
 
"Obvious by the early 1980s...", you've got to be kidding! I'm willing to bet that there were very few people (fans/reporters etc) who considered Makarov to be better than Kharlamov already in the early 1980s; Makarov's first big season was in 1978—79, and Kharlamov died tragically in 1981, which only elevated his already huge legend. But if you were among those hip people who thought that the young Makarov was already better than Kharlamov or any other Soviet forward ever, good for you... but you were certainly in the minority.

And actually, taken at face value, Kharlamov's international stats are more impressive than Makarov's (clearly better PPG), although a closer analysis gives a different perspective. The Soviet stats hugely favour Makarov, but how easy were they to find before the Internet and some sites that were dedicated to such information (plus how complete the late 1960s/early 1970s assist numbers are)? I don't think I knew much about the Soviet Player of the Year voting either (also favouring Makarov) before the late 2000s/early 2010s.

As far as "everybody saw them play many times" goes, I think you're again talking about yourself! I was born in 1974, so while I definitely watched Kharlamov in the late 1970s and 1980 and Makarov throughout the 1980s, it really didn't make me truly capable of comparing them based on the eye test. Only when I started to acquire old games on VHS/DVD in the mid-2000s, I began to think, "hey, Makarov looks at least as good or even better than Kharlamov"... But that was generally rare at least on THoH, as can be seen from the 2008 Top 100 Players of All Time list (Kharlamov 30th, Makarov 77th, behind e.g. Mikhailov and Peter Stastny, lol):
HOH Top 100 Players of All Time (compiled in 2008)

So, what's your explanation for this clear change, if not the more easily/widely available information and footage (YouTube)?
Much easier to have better PPG when you're playing teams you're beating 15-0. In fact we can go back to the 60s and find several players with better international PPG than Kharlamov including guys like Loktev. I don't think there is a general consensus that Kharlamov Petrov Mikhailov were vastly superior to Krutov Larionov Makarov yet their international PPG is. Hell there were Canadian amateurs averaging 5 goals per game playing the early WCs in the 1920s.

I didn't live through the 80s but my impression was that Makarov was viewed as a hockey superstar throughout Europe. For example some Czechs sports journalists made a list of the best forwards ever (underrating the Canadians for the obvious reason of barely ever seeing them play and overrating the old school European WC players not realizing European hockey throughout the 50s and 60s was extremely weak compared to the NHL).

The list is obviously pretty terrible but it showcases that Kharlamov wasn't definitely viewed as the undisputed God of European hockey while Makarov as someone on the level of Mikhailov:
2d6f842f7d6c717d9639b4716bbc8134.png


Personally I view Makarov as clearly superior to Kharlamov and in fact #1 Russian player of all time ahead of Ovechkin or Tretiak.
 
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...

Don't you hate those bum goalies who don't contribute their fair share of goals?
I remember reading that Ed Giacomin badly wanted to score an empty-net goal on his own, but had strict standards for attempting. He wouldn't try it unless his team had at least a two-goal lead, or they were shorthanded, because a miss meant an icing call and a risky faceoff. Of course, that ruled out trying to score in most empty-net scenarios.

I suspect that that kind of discipline prevailed in the O6 era
 
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Much easier to have better PPG when you're playing teams you're beating 15-0.

Thus I talked about face value and a (needed) closer analysis; in the 1969—75 World Championships, each team faced each other twice, and the USSR was of course beating countries like Poland and East/West Germany by huge margins basically in every game, which padded e.g. Kharlamov's stats. During Makarov's time, there was the first round, and then the final/medal round with the four best teams. Not sure whether their stats had much to do with anything anyway, but for some reason, Kharlamov was a more popular player, and probably still is in Russia, for example. Makarov—Kharlamov might not be very analogous to Hull—Richard, but it just came to mind anyway.
 
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Richard was functionally prohibited from scoring 100 points a year. It didn't occur by anyone in NHL history until after he retired.

The crutch of the Richard argument is two (ignoring cultural stuff)

* he was really good for really long. 14 years as an NHL all star was the non Howe record upon retirement. This includes 6 times as a Hart finalist.
* outstanding playoff resume. His goals vs peers is unmatched in NHL history for playoffs. He has what, 5 times top 2 in playoff scoring? 8 top 3? Clutch goal after clutch goal.

Put Pavel Bure or Mike Bossy or Steven Stamkos on those Habs and they're going to end up with some gaudy playoff goalscoring stats as well.
 
This thread got bumped again?

Yeah, I've never really thought about M. Richard vs. Hull Sr. It's interesting how Hull began in the NHL in the very season when Richard was having his last hurrah as a superstar (34 points in 28 RS games, and then 11 goals in 10 playoff games). Richard was 36 by then, and Hull just 18-19. (Is there any video footage of them facing each other from this season?)

So, one guy kind of takes over just as the other guy began to fade.

Having never really seen either guy play, I won't offer any strong opinion about the comparison. But Maurice Richard is somehow a much more likable guy. ; )
That's saying something considering Richard was hardly a nice guy on the ice.
 
That's saying something considering Richard was hardly a nice guy on the ice.
I don't know about that. He had an insane temper and lost his cool quite often, but only after he was provoked incessantly, usually by ethnic-slurs about French-Canadians or cheap-shots, butt-ends, high sticks, etc. You could say he gave as well as he took, but he wasn't the guy who went out and tried to initiate stuff by "making space for himself" as Gordie Howe or Ted Lindsay did. He just reacted when he boiled over (which was often).

But I was referring more to off the ice.
 
Richard was 3rd in the NHL in penalty minutes (and one of the all-time leaders) in his prime (1944-57) and was a player known for his reckless, fiery style of play...all reactionary stuff? What a string of bad luck... Richard was super Ted Lindsay essentially.
 
Very good post by Dark Shadows.

Having only seen bits of videos of them (and a few full games of Hull) I'm going mostly by what I've read and statistical dominance of their contemporaries. Here's my take:

Goalscoring: This is what Richard does best. But Hull is better. They are virtually even in terms of top-2, top-5, top-10, top-15, and top-20 seasons. Hull is 9-12-13-13-13, and Richard 8-12-13-14-14. But not all top-2s are created equal. Richard has five goal titles and Hull has seven. And Hull's goal titles were generally by wider margins against much stronger competition. That's before you add in some more credit for Hull's dominance in the WHA to whatever degree you prefer. Hull gets the edge.

Playmaking: Neither were ever the primary playmaker of their line, but they of course still had the opportunity to pile up assists. Richard was top-10 four times, never top-5. Hull did it five times, twice in the top-5. Hull gets the edge, though this does not mean much.

Hart consideration: Bobby Hull's best 8 seasons based on where he ranked in Hart voting are as follows: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3. Richard's are 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, and, well, somewhere outside of the top-5. Clear edge to Hull here.

Toughness: Richard was known as a tough competitor and a good fighter who you didn't want to cross. Hull would fight, but was generally a lady byng-type player. No one ever called him soft. Neither was a big bodychecker. Richard's competitive drive hurt the team seemingly almost as often as it helped. I think Richard was tougher but I don't know that there was a major benefit to this.

Defense: Hull was not a defensive star, but I've seen him described as responsible, a very good penalty killer, a good backchecker, and his adjusted +/- from 1967-1972 in the NHL was very strong. Descriptions of Richard's defensive play have ranged from "it was bad" to "it wasn't what he did best" to "let's just not talk about that part of his game". No doubt, Hull wins this one.

Playoff production/team success: Richard was the top playoff performer of his time and a clutch scorer. He also had, by far, the most playoff PIMs of his time. He ended up winning 8 Stanley Cups. Hull only won one, but he was also the top playoff scorer of his generation too. A quick look at their best finishes in the playoff points race: Richard: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3. Hull: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4. In goals: Richard: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2. Hull: 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8. Of course, being on a better team means you advance to the finals, and if you advance to the finals you have a better shot of making the playoff leaderboards. On a per-game basis it appears that Hull was every bit as offensively dominant as Richard individually, especially once competition is taken into consideration (Richard tore apart the war-torn NHL with 31 goals in his first 34 games) However, Richard did win the cups, and with Hull it is just a what-if. Richard has the reputation as a big-time clutch scorer, and though Hull is no choker, he didn't win like Richard did. Richard gets the edge not because he was personally much better, but because his team was, and he contributed greatly to that success.

Overall, I am sure that Hull should be considered the better player.
I’d say Hull
Don’t forget Hull left the NHL, for the WHA at 32 or 33 for the highest contract in Pro Hockey history by a lot.
Went on to score 300+ more goals there.

Yeah, Stan Mikita was a crappy linemate :facepalm: Ulf Nilsson was the same ***** center :shakehead

Smbdy need :help:
He didn’t play with Mikita, separate lines.
 
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