Confirmed with Link: Bobby Brink Signs Two Year Contract - $1.5M AAV

[renberg]

CF never really ran the team until Holmgren "retired", he was hired to run a consensus FO (after Hextall's Kremlin approach). AV had a lot of pull with that contract (it took a total collapse for the FO to eat the rest of his contract). AV wanted Ghost and Voracek gone, given there was no cap room b/c of the flat cap due to COVID, CF was backed into a corner. Trading Ghost and Voracek freed about $8M in cap room to get players AV wanted. Nor would keeping them have made a difference, the problem with the team was fundamental, aging, cap strapped with little left in the talent pipeline. The team had 61 points, had they kept those two, what, 66 points? Big deal.

Stralman had one year left at $5M, that should have been a cheaper salary dump. What matters in a salary dump is how much cap room you take on, not the quality of the player - Arizona was tanking, they didn't care about the quality of player they received. Cap room was at a premium around the league.

I’ll go with you in that CF’s hands were somewhat limited regarding Ghost and Jake. A recently hired coach with a large contract and term demands that certain players be moved or obtained what can CF do? He knows that the coach will go over his head in order to get what he wants done. He has no choice but to comply. The cost of this expungement is a question. CF might have been able to do better but he didn’t.
The bigger problem here was the tail being able to wag the dog. An organization simply can not allow any coach to have the power in the FO that AV had. The coach’s concerns are short term-to keep his job. The GM’s concern should be long term-build a long contending team. The two are not completely on the same page. Successful franchises give the GM the upper hand. Evidently the Flyers did not learn this lesson with CF/AV since they’ve set themselves up for a repeat with Briere and Tortorella.

 

[Magua]

It really sucks for Chuck that Vigneault materialized out of thin air as the head coach. You can’t blame a GM for quantum fluctuations.

 

[deadhead]

I’ll go with you in that CF’s hands were somewhat limited regarding Ghost and Jake. A recently hired coach with a large contract and term demands that certain players be moved or obtained what can CF do? He knows that the coach will go over his head in order to get what he wants done. He has no choice but to comply. The cost of this expungement is a question. CF might have been able to do better but he didn’t.
The bigger problem here was the tail being able to wag the dog. An organization simply can not allow any coach to have the power in the FO that AV had. The coach’s concerns are short term-to keep his job. The GM’s concern should be long term-build a long contending team. The two are not completely on the same page. Successful franchises give the GM the upper hand. Evidently the Flyers did not learn this lesson with CF/AV since they’ve set themselves up for a repeat with Briere and Tortorella.

I think the FO was on the same page, in that they were focused on winning in the short-term, when did Holmgren ever take the long view, and the only "rebuild" the Flyers ever conducted was after they fired Clarke as GM.

So it wasn't so much CF not being able to take a long-view, he was hired to "win now," and expected to make moves to patch the team to compete. He might have made better moves, but the general direction of the team was decided - so there was no conflict with AV's desire to reshape the team to make the playoffs. They were going to placate AV b/c he had taken them deeper into the playoffs than anyone since 2011, so they were hoping for a repeat.

The irony of hiring Torts was at the time it sounded like AV redux, hire a proven veteran HC to get back into the playoffs. Torts then looks at his team and says the unmentionable: "they need to rebuild and it may take 5 years" (i.e. longer than my contract). That's what changed everything.

Just b/c you'd do things differently doesn't mean they're not rebuilding. One of the youngest teams in the NHL and will remain so for years to come. Briere will have 6 1sts & 6 2nd rd picks over three years. They've kept a few veterans around as anchors and mentors. Hathaway the only one added, Couts, DesLauriers, Seeler, Laughton are legacies. TK and Sanheim are the two younger veterans to whom they've made a commitment.

They have a coherent philosophy now, whether they can successfully implement it is a different matter.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I think the FO was on the same page, in that they were focused on winning in the short-term, when did Holmgren ever take the long view, and the only "rebuild" the Flyers ever conducted was after they fired Clarke as GM.

So it wasn't so much CF not being able to take a long-view, he was hired to "win now," and expected to make moves to patch the team to compete. He might have made better moves, but the general direction of the team was decided - so there was no conflict with AV's desire to reshape the team to make the playoffs. They were going to placate AV b/c he had taken them deeper into the playoffs than anyone since 2011, so they were hoping for a repeat.

The irony of hiring Torts was at the time it sounded like AV redux, hire a proven veteran HC to get back into the playoffs. Torts then looks at his team and says the unmentionable: "they need to rebuild and it may take 5 years" (i.e. longer than my contract). That's what changed everything.

Just b/c you'd do things differently doesn't mean they're not rebuilding. One of the youngest teams in the NHL and will remain so for years to come. Briere will have 6 1sts & 6 2nd rd picks over three years. They've kept a few veterans around as anchors and mentors. Hathaway the only one added, Couts, DesLauriers, Seeler, Laughton are legacies. TK and Sanheim are the two younger veterans to whom they've made a commitment.

They have a coherent philosophy now, whether they can successfully implement it is a different matter.

Chuck Fletcher sucked as the Flyers GM. No matter what spin you put on it he was not good at his job. He was in charge and he did brutal job.

Torts can say whatever he wants. Anyone can. All about the actions.

Stop with the company spin of one of the youngest teams in the NHL. Who cares when the talent of those youngest players is nothing special in any way. They are not fn rebuilding. Even Stevie Wonder can that.

Wow 6 1st over 3 years will do what for this team when those picks are in the 12-30 range and many years away from contributing? History shows they do a great job with 2nd rd picks. Rather trade them, which they will, to get already developed for the most part young players.

Soon as cap space opens up you full well know what comes next. An overpay to a lower tier free agent center who they will prop up as a true top end guy, as well as 8 years to #2 dman who they will also hype up.

They have a coherent philosophy? Which is what? Play Flyers hockey? Good lord the felating of one of the worst run franchises in all of sports is mind boggling.

 

[deadhead]

Hextall started to rebuild, when Mason got hot and they made the playoffs in 2015-16 he stopped.
1st phase, June 2014 to Jan 2016:
out: Hartnell, McGinn, Kimmo, Coburn, Grossman, Vinnie, L Schenn
in: 2015 1st, 2nd, (2) 3rd, 4th, Gudas, 2016 3rd, 2017 3rd
2nd phase, summer 2016 to summer 2017:
out: Streit
in: Filppula, 4th rd, Weise (FA)
3rd phase, summer 2017 to summer 2018
out: Cousins, B Schenn, Marody, 2018 4th
in: Mrazek, 2017 1st, 2018 1st, 5th, 2019 3rd, JVR (FA), Lehtera

Now tell me what his philosophy was?

Briere et al have been consistent from day 1, they want to be competitive while accumulating draft picks and young players. They're not bad enough to garner a generational player, so they want a critical mass of young players in an environment where they're more likely to develop.

Generally, the difference in talent between 6-15 is much smaller than between 1 and 6. Their best bet at garnering a top player is to make Vegas/Carolina type moves.

I think the TK signing was their alternative to signing a FA, b/c they need to reserve cap room to sign their own players, at some point for example they'll need to give Michkov 8yr/$80M if he becomes the player we hope he'll be. So instead of signing a 29-30 year old FA in two years, they signed TK now.

 

[Curufinwe]

AV totally checked out during/after the Covid season. Should have been fired in summer 2021.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Hextall started to rebuild, when Mason got hot and they made the playoffs in 2015-16 he stopped.
1st phase, June 2014 to Jan 2016:
out: Hartnell, McGinn, Kimmo, Coburn, Grossman, Vinnie, L Schenn
in: 2015 1st, 2nd, (2) 3rd, 4th, Gudas, 2016 3rd, 2017 3rd
2nd phase, summer 2016 to summer 2017:
out: Streit
in: Filppula, 4th rd, Weise (FA)
3rd phase, summer 2017 to summer 2018
out: Cousins, B Schenn, Marody, 2018 4th
in: Mrazek, 2017 1st, 2018 1st, 5th, 2019 3rd, JVR (FA), Lehtera

Now tell me what his philosophy was?

Briere et al have been consistent from day 1, they want to be competitive while accumulating draft picks and young players. They're not bad enough to garner a generational player, so they want a critical mass of young players in an environment where they're more likely to develop.

Generally, the difference in talent between 6-15 is much smaller than between 1 and 6. Their best bet at garnering a top player is to make Vegas/Carolina type moves.

I think the TK signing was their alternative to signing a FA, b/c they need to reserve cap room to sign their own players, at some point for example they'll need to give Michkov 8yr/$80M if he becomes the player we hope he'll be. So instead of signing a 29-30 year old FA in two years, they signed TK now.

Is Briere's plan more likely to fail or succeed?

They want to be competitive and they are failing, just like Chuck and Ronald did.

No signing TK was the typical Flyers thing to do. Has zero to do with free agency.

 

[deadhead]

Is Briere's plan more likely to fail or succeed?

They want to be competitive and they are failing, just like Chuck and Ronald did.

No signing TK was the typical Flyers thing to do. Has zero to do with free agency.

How are they failing? They were competitive last season (until the goalies imploded), yet still managed to garner another 1st rd pick. Being competitive helps both player evaluation (see them in meaningful games) and player development (dealing with the pressure of a PO run). Last season was perfect, players got meaningful experience while the goalies got them #12.

Now whether this works out in the long-run is unknown, but so far, so good.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

M

How are they failing? They were competitive last season (until the goalies imploded), yet still managed to garner another 1st rd pick. Being competitive helps both player evaluation (see them in meaningful games) and player development (dealing with the pressure of a PO run). Last season was perfect, players got meaningful experience while the goalies got them #12.

Now whether this works out in the long-run is unknown, but so far, so good.

My bad missing the playoffs by 4 points is successful/competitive I guess. My definition is a little different. Can you say they failed in said playoff pressure atmosphere?

They looked better because 5 other teams shit the bed. Why do you never mention that? they were/are a bland boring team with no real path to contention. They will be a bottom of the conf team.

 

[deadhead]

M

My bad missing the playoffs by 4 points is successful/competitive I guess. My definition is a little different. Can you say they failed in said playoff pressure atmosphere?

They looked better because 5 other teams shit the bed. Why do you never mention that? they were/are a bland boring team with no real path to contention. They will be a bottom of the conf team.

The underlying metrics say they played fine under playoff pressure atmosphere.
Had they merely had average goalie play down the stretch, they finish with 90+ points and probably make the playoffs.

Briere isn't trying to make the playoffs this season, no one wants to put that pressure on Michkov, the goalies are unknown, the defense is a work in progress and so on. The old Flyers would have gone out and gotten a veteran center to make a PO push, Briere has called about young centers but isn't willing to overpay. So he adds Abols and Richard at no cost.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

The underlying metrics say they played fine under playoff pressure atmosphere.
Had they merely had average goalie play down the stretch, they finish with 90+ points and probably make the playoffs.

Briere isn't trying to make the playoffs this season, no one wants to put that pressure on Michkov, the goalies are unknown, the defense is a work in progress and so on. The old Flyers would have gone out and gotten a veteran center to make a PO push, Briere has called about young centers but isn't willing to overpay. So he adds Abols and Richard at no cost.

metrics smetrics. They folded like a cheap suit.

That is a crock of shit.

 

[bennysflyers16]

What young players have they added ???

 

[Flyerfan4life]

What young players have they added ???

EJ ?

 

[Beef Invictus]

If they aren't trying to make the playoffs this year then keeping Seeler, Laughton, and Hathaway is a blatant error

 

[BernieParent]

If they aren't trying to make the playoffs this year then keeping Seeler, Laughton, and Hathaway is a blatant error

Well, they aren't but then again they are, while accumulating assets, although it would be invaluable for the prospects they don't have on their roster to gain experience in big game situations, while they don't expect to finish high since this is a rebuild, although remaining competitive is a top priority along with drafting multiple players in the mid- to late 1st and 2nd rounds, being sure to take the best players at the target positions available and slow-cooking them through their development process that also aims to remain competitive and did, in fact, reach the second round of the AHL playoffs with their veteran (cap dump) goaltender playing the majority of games since you have to foster a winning attitude for the youngsters to not develop a losing mindset even though the main club likely won't sniff the playoffs for another few years, which is all part of the plan to restock on prospects with reasonable upside and who knows which ones will really excel past their projected ceiling if they are first able to beat out the veterans at training camp and grab hold of their chance, which is all the coaching staff wants to see, besides committing themselves to putting on 10-20 lbs of muscle and really building their defensive game to be all-around players that can be slotted up and down the roster, except that offense-first players just don't fit on a 4th line so they really should be playing big minutes on the Phantoms rather than sitting in the press box.

 

[trostol]

WTF are you evaluating if its the same players year after year because they never think the kids are ready

 

[Beef Invictus]

Well, they aren't but then again they are, while accumulating assets, although it would be invaluable for the prospects they don't have on their roster to gain experience in big game situations, while they don't expect to finish high since this is a rebuild, although remaining competitive is a top priority along with drafting multiple players in the mid- to late 1st and 2nd rounds, being sure to take the best players at the target positions available and slow-cooking them through their development process that also aims to remain competitive and did, in fact, reach the second round of the AHL playoffs with their veteran (cap dump) goaltender playing the majority of games since you have to foster a winning attitude for the youngsters to not develop a losing mindset even though the main club likely won't sniff the playoffs for another few years, which is all part of the plan to restock on prospects with reasonable upside and who knows which ones will really excel past their projected ceiling if they are first able to beat out the veterans at training camp and grab hold of their chance, which is all the coaching staff wants to see, besides committing themselves to putting on 10-20 lbs of muscle and really building their defensive game to be all-around players that can be slotted up and down the roster, except that offense-first players just don't fit on a 4th line so they really should be playing big minutes on the Phantoms rather than sitting in the press box.

It's so simple!

 

[blackjackmulligan]

If they aren't trying to make the playoffs this year then keeping Seeler, Laughton, and Hathaway is a blatant error

It is an error to keep them, key players in the Flyers eyes.

 

[CerpinTaxt]

Oh man I missed the multitude of one sided arguments on the boards. DH has returned full force

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

It must be summer. We’re rehashing rehashed stuff. We all know what went down and why. No need to kick around this can again.

It all started with the Brian Propp trade...