Bob Cole final: Trois Rivieres AC vs. Sydney Millionaires
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VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
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Special Teams:
PP1:
Slot/Net - Bowie
Right Wall - Kucherov
Left Wall - Taylor
QB - Harvey
Trigger - Lapointe
PP2:
Slot/Net - Barry
Right Wall - Schriner
Left Wall - Morris
QB - Patrick
Trigger - Grant
PK1:
Mackell-Leswick
Pulford-Harvey
PK2:
Bourne-Taylor
Lapointe-Marshall
PP1:
Slot/Net - Bowie
Right Wall - Kucherov
Left Wall - Taylor
QB - Harvey
Trigger - Lapointe
PP2:
Slot/Net - Barry
Right Wall - Schriner
Left Wall - Morris
QB - Patrick
Trigger - Grant
PK1:
Mackell-Leswick
Pulford-Harvey
PK2:
Bourne-Taylor
Lapointe-Marshall
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"You're a boring old man"
@Transplanted Caper congrats on advancing to this point. Looking forward to a neat match up and hopefully some commentary along the way. Hoping @Johnny Engine can swing by as well.
Coaching - Punch Imlach/Bob Johnson vs Roger Neilson - Moderate Advantage Three Rivers
Neilson gets a lot of high marks for his usage of video to scout/analyze his/other teams and he was probably more knowledgeable than most coaches when it came to NHL rules and loopholes. Still, he bounced around a lot in his career and never won a title. To be fair, he generally wasn't coaching the top tier teams in the leagues at the times he coached, but compared to someone like Imlach, who built and coached a dynasty during the same time period Toe Blake coached in Montreal, seems like an advantage for Imlach. Bob Johnson who will primarily focus on special teams should be over the moon with what he has to work with on both units, especially the PP. Johnny talked about how Johnson used his PP during his time with Calgary and Pittsburgh and the fit between real life and our squad's personnel. Johnson's upbeat and unwavering positivity is a nice zig to Imlach's vulgar zag for the roster;
Johnny and I built a roster with a lot of old time hockey players which should gel with a coach like Imlach. All 3 lettermen (Patrick, Pulford, Taylor) played in the pre-merger period, which was renowned for little entitlements and very rugged play. Imlach relied on veterans to handle practices (when he was away on GM duties) and having Lester Patrick and Harvey Pulford (both renowned leaders in their day) leading the team, should fit right into how Imlach operated.
Imlach was very fond of Johnny Bower in real life, his money goalie who was also noted as being strong with the puck on his stick and would come out of his crease often to play it. Sounds a lot like Martin Broduer, who is simply a better version of a Johnny Bower level netminder.
I think this is a solid advantage for Three Rivers and depending on how you view Neilson, might be a big one.
Forwards - Even
Three Rivers:
Sweeney Schriner - Cyclone Taylor - Bernie Morris
Paul Thompson - Russell Bowie - Mikita Kucherov
Tony Leswick - Marty Barry - Bobby Bauer
Bob Bourne - Fleming Mackell - Claude Lemieux
Jack Adams
Sydney:
Aurele Joliat - Sidney Crosby (C) - Cecil 'Babe' Dye
Woody Dumart - Eric Lindros - Cam Neely (A)
Dean Prentice - Mike Peca - Dirk Graham
Daniel Sedin - Auston Matthews - Shane Doan
Odie Cleghorn
I think the top line for Sydney wins the head to head due to LW and C. It's a sweet trio overall, with Crosby having a smart, great skating 2 way stud in Joliat (like the fit a lot) and a finisher in Dye. Dye is very one dimensional but near elite in that dimension. The one knock I'd have on the line is that there really isn't a bonafide puck retriever. Take away easy entry via skating and east west passing and force them to chase and battle.
I do think Schriner-Taylor-Morris is a better skating group and can equal the Crosby led line in offensive output if you line their VsX/Vs2 scores side by side.
The 2nd line swings back to Three Rivers, on the backs of Bowie and Kucherov being the 2 best players out of the 6 being looked at IMO. There was a time when Lindros was equal or even ahead of Bowie but I think those days are gone. Lindros' big weakness is injury whereas Bowie dominated for a long time in an era when players rarely played as along as he did. Kucherov brings a line driving element from the wing spot and is the smartest/most decorated player as far as regular season + postseasons go. Thompson and Dumart are letter even and bring the glue to each unit.
It's hard to compare the 3rd and 4th line's for each team because they're very different. Three Rivers has a 2 way, depth scoring 3rd line, and a more defensive/pest/checking 4th, with the roles flipped on the Sydney squad. As they stand, I think Three Rivers comes out ahead on the 3rd line with Barry being the biggest different maker. The 4th line favors Sydney based on talent, however Sedin, Matthrews, and Doan leave a lot to be desired when it comes to playoff performances. Three Rivers 4th line is built to dominate in the postseason in a checking/pest/clutch scoring role. All 3 of Bourne, Mackell, and Lemieux have stellar records as playoff performers, especially in a balls to the wall, limited role here.
All in all, I think this is a pretty evenly matched F group. I think the depth and clutch performers in the bottom 6 (Barry, Leswick, Bourne, Mackell, Lemieux), tilt the group match up ever so slightly to Three Rivers but in the grand scheme this feels like an even comparison.
Defense: Moderate Advantage Three Rivers
Three Rivers
Doug Harvey - Guy Lapointe
Harvey Pulford - Lester Patrick
Mike Grant - Jack Marshall
Si Griffis
Sydney
Marcel Pronovost - Tim Horton (A)
Pat Stapleton - Bill White
Lloyd Cook - Adam Foote
Hamby Shore
Harvey is the clear cut best blue liner in this series. Lapointe and Pronovost are very close to being even, though I'm personally leaning Lapointe because he was a more rounded player, a big difference maker at both ends of the ice and heavily used on each special team's unit vs Prono who was predominantly a defensive minded player after the first few years in the league.
There are some more nuanced advantages for Three Rivers between the top pairings. I think it's a more balanced duo, features better skating and as physical as Horton and Pronovost were, I wouldn't give them any discernible advantage here. Most notably the transition game favors Three Rivers. As good as Plante was at moving the puck, Brodeur was probably even better and Harvey/Lapointe is just a smoooooth machine at controlling the tempo and pace of a game. That's no slight against Pronovost and Horton, but neither are in the same class as their counterparts as it pertains to moving/passing a puck. I think there are more avenue's especially with the skating prowess of Three Rivers F's to put pressure on the Dmen for Sydney. Imlach would be intimately knowledgeable on Horton's tendencies. Same with Jacques Plante
The second pairing is a closer battle, though Three Rivers wins out IMO. I personally think Patrick is the best of the bunch and depending on what you think of the era, Pulford is the 2nd best defender of the 4.
Bill White was a 3 time AS and Norris finalist in the Orr era. He was essentially a defensive only player but elite in that regard. Expert on the kill, heavily used at ES as well. But isn't he just a lesser version of Harvey Pulford if we're really digging into their careers? Pulford was his era's best defensive defensemen and probably held that title until Gerard came about. He captained a SC dynasty in Ottawa so his big game exploits would dwarf White's who has a pretty bleak resume there specifically, though he wasn't on many good teams.
And Stapleton, the offensive catalyst of the pairing, is trailing pretty much across the board against Lester Patrick,. I'd wager the only 2 definitively better defensemen of the pre-merger era were Cleghorn and Gerard. Maybe Hod Stuart but his run was just so short.
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Really wonderful bio on Patrick and you can check out even more info from the pre-merger project last year.
You see a lot of talk about his leadership, his hockey IQ and being a very smart player. He was a brilliant skater which is a nice cover for Pulford who was below average. And he played for so long, again, in a time when players didn't often get past a decade let alone reach 2. His offensive output was stellar forever, even up until he was 42 years old in the WHL.
I think you have to give a bit of a bump for the real-life chemistry between Stapleton and White. Fit is something that's subjective but when you have a historical combination it removes most/all of the doubt. While I don't believe Patrick and Pulford ever played on the same squad they would have been very familiar with one another given their time together in the ECAHA as captains of Montreal and Ottawa respectively. Johnny and I think their styles play off one another beautifully. Both pairings are more telegraphed in that you know who is the primary mover and defender on each unit, I just think Three Rivers duo does their jobs a bit better than the Millionaires.
And one last thing to note. Is there a more battle tested top 4 in the draft?
12 Cup wins between Harvey and Lapointe. Harvey played in 10 straight Cup finals, winning 6 between 1950-51 and 1959-60.
Pulford and Patrick were mainstays in the Cup challenges between 1903 and 1909.
This is a, been there, done that, group. Couple that with a goalie like Brodeur and you're getting high level play, in all situations.
I don't think there is any question Mike Grant (he's a tier or 2 above fellow pre merger player Lloyd Cook) is the best of the 4 bottom pairing players. He was a superstar in the earliest portion of hockey history and gets to moonlight as a fairly sheltered yet impactful offensive weapon, while seeing some time on the 2nd unit PP in this go. Couple that with a defensive minded, battle tested chess piece in Jack Marshall (he can also play C and would do so if Taylor was ever shifted back to D) and we feel like the bottom pairing is another slight win for the AC of Pittsburgh.
It's no surprise I believe our squad comes out ahead in this area of the competition given the draft capital invested in the G/D ranks. In an overall sense I feel like Three Rivers enjoys a bigger than small, but smaller than big advantage here. Call it moderate.
Goalies: Martin Broudeur/Percy Leseur vs Jacques Plante/Marc Andre Fleury - Even
Another all time classic from the group of death (Goalies).
This is such a great match up. Plante was Brodeur before Brodeur showed up. Elite playoff goalie, one of the best ever at handling the puck. He's my #3 goalie all time with Marty slotting right behind him at 4, and only a few spots below on the all time rank (all positions). Some might put enough of a gap between the 2 to warrant a slide edge for Sydney, but I don't' see it.
I think Brodeur is comfortably ahead as far as regular seasons go.
He played during Roy/Hasek era, along with Belfour, Lundqvist (2000's), Barrasso, Joseph, Vanbiesbrouck, Tim Thomas (2000s). It's the best and deepest era of goaltending in NHL history and during this time Brodeur had:
Plante did win a Hart in 1962 but outside of that year, only had 1 other finish in the top 5.
Roy had 5
Hasek had 5
Hall had 5
Sawchuk had 4
Brodeur was top 5 in Hart voting SEVEN times.
Brodeur is tops all time, in shutouts, minutes played (by a massive amount, 14,000+ over Roy), games played, wins (by 130 over Fleury). shots against, saves.
Depending on how you view longevity, there is a case to be made that Brodeur has the best regular season resume of any G ever, though I think some would take Hasek due to the 2 Hart wins on less than dynastic squads in Buffalo. Or Glenn Hall. Basically comes down to peak vs longevity as a top G.
As far as playoffs go, Plante has the edge due to a little higher peak but I don't see much of a gap. Roy is pretty much the consensus best playoff goalie ever and a lot of folks would peg Plante at #2. I could see an argument for Broda and mayyyybe Dryden over Brodeur but beyond those names, is there anyone else who could widen the gap between Jacques and Marty? Plante was never the best player on the Habs (I have Harvey and Beliveau as clearly ahead and in the early to mid 50's, you might argue Rocket Richard) and operated on arguably the greatest dynasty ever assembled (50's Montreal squads) whereas Broduer was the best player on NJ for a long, long time and probably did more to lead his team to SC heights.
As far as back ups go, while I think Fleury will breeze into the HOF given the counting stats, though he's a pretty volatile back up in this setting. I say that as a Penguins fan who saw a lot of his career. He could play spectacular hockey but also break the spirit of a team with some backbreaking goals allowed. With that being said, he shouldn't get on the ice much with Plante in there anyway. LeSueur was the best G of his generation, until Vezina came along. The odds of him seeing the ice are extremely slim playing behind Broduer, but LeSueur reads as a more stable playoff performer.
Special Teams: - Slight Advantage Three Rivers
Three Rivers
PP1:
Slot/Net - Bowie
Right Wall - Kucherov
Left Wall - Taylor
QB - Harvey
Trigger - Lapointe
PP2:
Slot/Net - Barry
Right Wall - Schriner
Left Wall - Morris
QB - Patrick
Trigger - Grant
PK1:
Mackell-Leswick
Pulford-Harvey
PK2:
Bourne-Taylor
Lapointe-Marshall
vs
Sydney Millionaires
PP1
Joliet-Crosby-Neely
Matthews-Horton
PP2
Dumart-Lindros-Dye
Dumart-Pronovost
*Going to sub in Stapleton here since Dumart is the F
PK1
Peca-Graham
Pronovost-Foote
*Going to sub in Horton here moving Foote down to 2nd unit
PK2
Prentice-Matthews
Cook/Foote-White
I think Three Rivers has at least a moderate advantage on special teams.
Comparing the top PP units sees Pittsburgh come out ahead comfortably IMO.
Taylor, Bowie, Kucherov is just a more lethal F trio vs Crosby, Joliat, Neely. I don't know if I've seen a better playmaker off the right wall than Kucherov in the last 20 years. The PP usage and output speaks for itself w/him. And now he's surrounded by 4 HOF'er. Bowie is the best goal scorer of the group and sandwiched between Kuch and Taylor should give him plenty of opportunities to bury the puck.
I think the transition game is something to really zero in on w/Three Rivers. You have the best puck moving goalie ever in Broduer, one of the greatest ever on the blueline (Harvey) and a F/D in Taylor who brings McDavid/Orr level speed and puck abilities to the equation.
Then you look at the blue line and I think there is a large gap favoring Harvey/Lapointe vs a young pup in Matthews (Three Rivers PK forwards will put heavy pressure on him specifically) and Horton. I'm not sure how much PP time Horton got but he wasn't an overly strong offensive player and doesn't show up on overpasses special teams study for PP usage. I would personally have much more faith in Harvey/Lapointe being able to transition the puck and generate chances in the neutral/offensive zone based on their history QB'ing PP's on many Cup winners.
I also see Three Rivers ahead as far as 2nd units go. Barry and Schriner are both 90 VsX level offensive players and Morris a low 80's guy. The 1st 2 guys could certainly feature on a lot of 1st units. It's a well balanced group. I'm not sure what to make of Dumart being listed as a F and D on the 2nd unit for Sydney, but I'd wager that should read Stapleton being paired with Pronovost. Even still, I'd take the offensive acumen of Lester Patrick and Mike Grant.
I think the biggest advantage between the PP units are the defensemen. Harvey/Lapointe/Patrick/Grant is just vastly superior to Matthews/Horton/Stapleton/Pronovost.
As far as the PK units go, the Millionaires improve quite a bit. Peca/Graham are Selke level F's who both have fantastic reps as killers, especially Peca. It's harder to quantify the 06 (and earlier) players where data is simply not as robust but the PK reps of both Leswick/Mackell were very strong. You can read about both from past bio's here.
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I think it's important for Johnny and I to continue to highlight the skating abilities of our team. Sure, a guy like Taylor gets a lot of the attention but Leswick and Mackell were top shelf skaters, again, plenty of source materials above. Not only in pure speed but their acceleration was superb.
Winning puck battles isn't just about who is strongest. Getting to the puck first also helps quite a bit. Skating and smart positional play is a considerable portion of the pie.
I don't see Horton on the PK which is puzzling to me. Sliding him on the top unit to the right of Pronovost would be the ideal set up. That's a duo who could tread water with Harvey/Lapointe certainly.
Then you'd have Foote/Cook and White on the 2nd unit which probably edges Lapointe/Marshall.
The 2nd team F's of Three Rivers are more dangerous/effective PK'ers in my book (Bourne/Taylor vs Prentice/Matthews). The insane speed/counter ability might make a few splashes in a series that sees a young Matthews handling duties as a F on the blue line, along with guys like Horton and Pronovost who weren't exactly premier PP QB's.
All in all, I'd say Three Rivers has a decent advantage on the whole. I have us pretty comfortably ahead on the PP, largely due to the big difference in defensemen, though the F's are also superior, just to a lesser degree.
The PK is a coin toss, though I'd not complain if someone has Sydney slightly ahead.
Slowing Crosby?
With home ice advantage, Three Rivers will rely on making sure Harvey/Lapointe are on the ice as often as possible when 87 is playing. Harvey's elite combination of defensive acumen/positioning and physicality should wear on Sid throughout. Crosby is quoted as saying Lidstrom was the best defender he ever went up against and Harvey is more or less a better/physical/stronger version of Lid. Sid hasn't always dealt with physicality and air tight defending well and the trio of Harvey/Lapointe/Pulford should bring plenty of that to the table.
These 3 will also be key in keeping Sid from setting up rent free near the net on the PP, as he likes to do in real life. When he flanks out to the wall, the foot speed and PK acumen of Leswick, Mackell, Bourne, and Taylor will put significant pressure and reduce the amount of time Sid has to make a decision. Taking away his time and space is paramount. Players like Sid thrive the more freedom they have to operate.
As far as matchups go, we like Taylor and Mackell's lines going head to head. Taylor's speed and all around ability will keep Sid on his toes. He can't outskate Taylor (or Mackell for that matter) and Taylor's own offensive brilliance will test Sid's defensive traits. Schriner-Taylor-Morris is every bit as potent as Joliat-Crosby-Dye and will have to be respected.
Mackell offers elite speed but in a more defined defensive package. When the Millionaires get a draw in the offensive zone and Sid is on the ice, Mackell will get the call a good bunch but otherwise, a power on power (1st line vs 1st line) showing will take place on Pittsburgh ice.
Three Rivers also has a pair of world class pests in their bottom 6 (Leswick/Lemieux) who will look to needle Sid throughout the series.
Series Prediction: Three Rivers wins 4-1
I think Three Rivers has a pretty clear advantage behind the bench, on the blueline, with the PP and in skating/transition. IMHO we hold serve at F and in net offering little for the Millionaires to really point to as calling cards.
As always, thanks to everyone who's participated. This was another fun and seamless experience!
Coaching - Punch Imlach/Bob Johnson vs Roger Neilson - Moderate Advantage Three Rivers
Neilson gets a lot of high marks for his usage of video to scout/analyze his/other teams and he was probably more knowledgeable than most coaches when it came to NHL rules and loopholes. Still, he bounced around a lot in his career and never won a title. To be fair, he generally wasn't coaching the top tier teams in the leagues at the times he coached, but compared to someone like Imlach, who built and coached a dynasty during the same time period Toe Blake coached in Montreal, seems like an advantage for Imlach. Bob Johnson who will primarily focus on special teams should be over the moon with what he has to work with on both units, especially the PP. Johnny talked about how Johnson used his PP during his time with Calgary and Pittsburgh and the fit between real life and our squad's personnel. Johnson's upbeat and unwavering positivity is a nice zig to Imlach's vulgar zag for the roster;
Johnny and I built a roster with a lot of old time hockey players which should gel with a coach like Imlach. All 3 lettermen (Patrick, Pulford, Taylor) played in the pre-merger period, which was renowned for little entitlements and very rugged play. Imlach relied on veterans to handle practices (when he was away on GM duties) and having Lester Patrick and Harvey Pulford (both renowned leaders in their day) leading the team, should fit right into how Imlach operated.
Imlach was very fond of Johnny Bower in real life, his money goalie who was also noted as being strong with the puck on his stick and would come out of his crease often to play it. Sounds a lot like Martin Broduer, who is simply a better version of a Johnny Bower level netminder.
I think this is a solid advantage for Three Rivers and depending on how you view Neilson, might be a big one.
Forwards - Even
Three Rivers:
Sweeney Schriner - Cyclone Taylor - Bernie Morris
Paul Thompson - Russell Bowie - Mikita Kucherov
Tony Leswick - Marty Barry - Bobby Bauer
Bob Bourne - Fleming Mackell - Claude Lemieux
Jack Adams
Sydney:
Aurele Joliat - Sidney Crosby (C) - Cecil 'Babe' Dye
Woody Dumart - Eric Lindros - Cam Neely (A)
Dean Prentice - Mike Peca - Dirk Graham
Daniel Sedin - Auston Matthews - Shane Doan
Odie Cleghorn
I think the top line for Sydney wins the head to head due to LW and C. It's a sweet trio overall, with Crosby having a smart, great skating 2 way stud in Joliat (like the fit a lot) and a finisher in Dye. Dye is very one dimensional but near elite in that dimension. The one knock I'd have on the line is that there really isn't a bonafide puck retriever. Take away easy entry via skating and east west passing and force them to chase and battle.
I do think Schriner-Taylor-Morris is a better skating group and can equal the Crosby led line in offensive output if you line their VsX/Vs2 scores side by side.
The 2nd line swings back to Three Rivers, on the backs of Bowie and Kucherov being the 2 best players out of the 6 being looked at IMO. There was a time when Lindros was equal or even ahead of Bowie but I think those days are gone. Lindros' big weakness is injury whereas Bowie dominated for a long time in an era when players rarely played as along as he did. Kucherov brings a line driving element from the wing spot and is the smartest/most decorated player as far as regular season + postseasons go. Thompson and Dumart are letter even and bring the glue to each unit.
It's hard to compare the 3rd and 4th line's for each team because they're very different. Three Rivers has a 2 way, depth scoring 3rd line, and a more defensive/pest/checking 4th, with the roles flipped on the Sydney squad. As they stand, I think Three Rivers comes out ahead on the 3rd line with Barry being the biggest different maker. The 4th line favors Sydney based on talent, however Sedin, Matthrews, and Doan leave a lot to be desired when it comes to playoff performances. Three Rivers 4th line is built to dominate in the postseason in a checking/pest/clutch scoring role. All 3 of Bourne, Mackell, and Lemieux have stellar records as playoff performers, especially in a balls to the wall, limited role here.
All in all, I think this is a pretty evenly matched F group. I think the depth and clutch performers in the bottom 6 (Barry, Leswick, Bourne, Mackell, Lemieux), tilt the group match up ever so slightly to Three Rivers but in the grand scheme this feels like an even comparison.
Defense: Moderate Advantage Three Rivers
Three Rivers
Doug Harvey - Guy Lapointe
Harvey Pulford - Lester Patrick
Mike Grant - Jack Marshall
Si Griffis
Sydney
Marcel Pronovost - Tim Horton (A)
Pat Stapleton - Bill White
Lloyd Cook - Adam Foote
Hamby Shore
Harvey is the clear cut best blue liner in this series. Lapointe and Pronovost are very close to being even, though I'm personally leaning Lapointe because he was a more rounded player, a big difference maker at both ends of the ice and heavily used on each special team's unit vs Prono who was predominantly a defensive minded player after the first few years in the league.
There are some more nuanced advantages for Three Rivers between the top pairings. I think it's a more balanced duo, features better skating and as physical as Horton and Pronovost were, I wouldn't give them any discernible advantage here. Most notably the transition game favors Three Rivers. As good as Plante was at moving the puck, Brodeur was probably even better and Harvey/Lapointe is just a smoooooth machine at controlling the tempo and pace of a game. That's no slight against Pronovost and Horton, but neither are in the same class as their counterparts as it pertains to moving/passing a puck. I think there are more avenue's especially with the skating prowess of Three Rivers F's to put pressure on the Dmen for Sydney. Imlach would be intimately knowledgeable on Horton's tendencies. Same with Jacques Plante
The second pairing is a closer battle, though Three Rivers wins out IMO. I personally think Patrick is the best of the bunch and depending on what you think of the era, Pulford is the 2nd best defender of the 4.
Bill White was a 3 time AS and Norris finalist in the Orr era. He was essentially a defensive only player but elite in that regard. Expert on the kill, heavily used at ES as well. But isn't he just a lesser version of Harvey Pulford if we're really digging into their careers? Pulford was his era's best defensive defensemen and probably held that title until Gerard came about. He captained a SC dynasty in Ottawa so his big game exploits would dwarf White's who has a pretty bleak resume there specifically, though he wasn't on many good teams.
And Stapleton, the offensive catalyst of the pairing, is trailing pretty much across the board against Lester Patrick,. I'd wager the only 2 definitively better defensemen of the pre-merger era were Cleghorn and Gerard. Maybe Hod Stuart but his run was just so short.
ATD2011 Bio Thread
The first part is just last year's Bio by BiLLY_ShOE1721, which was great. I have added some new content, which can be found at the end... D Valery Vasiliev International Awards and Acheivements: Member of the IIHF Hall of Fame (1998) National Team Captain 2 x Olympic Gold...
Really wonderful bio on Patrick and you can check out even more info from the pre-merger project last year.
You see a lot of talk about his leadership, his hockey IQ and being a very smart player. He was a brilliant skater which is a nice cover for Pulford who was below average. And he played for so long, again, in a time when players didn't often get past a decade let alone reach 2. His offensive output was stellar forever, even up until he was 42 years old in the WHL.
I think you have to give a bit of a bump for the real-life chemistry between Stapleton and White. Fit is something that's subjective but when you have a historical combination it removes most/all of the doubt. While I don't believe Patrick and Pulford ever played on the same squad they would have been very familiar with one another given their time together in the ECAHA as captains of Montreal and Ottawa respectively. Johnny and I think their styles play off one another beautifully. Both pairings are more telegraphed in that you know who is the primary mover and defender on each unit, I just think Three Rivers duo does their jobs a bit better than the Millionaires.
And one last thing to note. Is there a more battle tested top 4 in the draft?
12 Cup wins between Harvey and Lapointe. Harvey played in 10 straight Cup finals, winning 6 between 1950-51 and 1959-60.
Pulford and Patrick were mainstays in the Cup challenges between 1903 and 1909.
This is a, been there, done that, group. Couple that with a goalie like Brodeur and you're getting high level play, in all situations.
I don't think there is any question Mike Grant (he's a tier or 2 above fellow pre merger player Lloyd Cook) is the best of the 4 bottom pairing players. He was a superstar in the earliest portion of hockey history and gets to moonlight as a fairly sheltered yet impactful offensive weapon, while seeing some time on the 2nd unit PP in this go. Couple that with a defensive minded, battle tested chess piece in Jack Marshall (he can also play C and would do so if Taylor was ever shifted back to D) and we feel like the bottom pairing is another slight win for the AC of Pittsburgh.
It's no surprise I believe our squad comes out ahead in this area of the competition given the draft capital invested in the G/D ranks. In an overall sense I feel like Three Rivers enjoys a bigger than small, but smaller than big advantage here. Call it moderate.
Goalies: Martin Broudeur/Percy Leseur vs Jacques Plante/Marc Andre Fleury - Even
Another all time classic from the group of death (Goalies).
This is such a great match up. Plante was Brodeur before Brodeur showed up. Elite playoff goalie, one of the best ever at handling the puck. He's my #3 goalie all time with Marty slotting right behind him at 4, and only a few spots below on the all time rank (all positions). Some might put enough of a gap between the 2 to warrant a slide edge for Sydney, but I don't' see it.
I think Brodeur is comfortably ahead as far as regular seasons go.
He played during Roy/Hasek era, along with Belfour, Lundqvist (2000's), Barrasso, Joseph, Vanbiesbrouck, Tim Thomas (2000s). It's the best and deepest era of goaltending in NHL history and during this time Brodeur had:
- 4 time Vezina winner with 5 other finalist nods.
- 11 times he was a top 12 Hart vote getter including a 3 time finalist.
- From age 21 to age 37 he was a top 8 in Norris voting every year but 1, including those 4 wins above
- He was superb on all 3 Cup winners in NJ and even pushing 40 years old in a Cup finals run (loss to LA) put up respectable numbers.
Plante did win a Hart in 1962 but outside of that year, only had 1 other finish in the top 5.
Roy had 5
Hasek had 5
Hall had 5
Sawchuk had 4
Brodeur was top 5 in Hart voting SEVEN times.
Brodeur is tops all time, in shutouts, minutes played (by a massive amount, 14,000+ over Roy), games played, wins (by 130 over Fleury). shots against, saves.
Depending on how you view longevity, there is a case to be made that Brodeur has the best regular season resume of any G ever, though I think some would take Hasek due to the 2 Hart wins on less than dynastic squads in Buffalo. Or Glenn Hall. Basically comes down to peak vs longevity as a top G.
As far as playoffs go, Plante has the edge due to a little higher peak but I don't see much of a gap. Roy is pretty much the consensus best playoff goalie ever and a lot of folks would peg Plante at #2. I could see an argument for Broda and mayyyybe Dryden over Brodeur but beyond those names, is there anyone else who could widen the gap between Jacques and Marty? Plante was never the best player on the Habs (I have Harvey and Beliveau as clearly ahead and in the early to mid 50's, you might argue Rocket Richard) and operated on arguably the greatest dynasty ever assembled (50's Montreal squads) whereas Broduer was the best player on NJ for a long, long time and probably did more to lead his team to SC heights.
As far as back ups go, while I think Fleury will breeze into the HOF given the counting stats, though he's a pretty volatile back up in this setting. I say that as a Penguins fan who saw a lot of his career. He could play spectacular hockey but also break the spirit of a team with some backbreaking goals allowed. With that being said, he shouldn't get on the ice much with Plante in there anyway. LeSueur was the best G of his generation, until Vezina came along. The odds of him seeing the ice are extremely slim playing behind Broduer, but LeSueur reads as a more stable playoff performer.
Special Teams: - Slight Advantage Three Rivers
Three Rivers
PP1:
Slot/Net - Bowie
Right Wall - Kucherov
Left Wall - Taylor
QB - Harvey
Trigger - Lapointe
PP2:
Slot/Net - Barry
Right Wall - Schriner
Left Wall - Morris
QB - Patrick
Trigger - Grant
PK1:
Mackell-Leswick
Pulford-Harvey
PK2:
Bourne-Taylor
Lapointe-Marshall
vs
Sydney Millionaires
PP1
Joliet-Crosby-Neely
Matthews-Horton
PP2
Dumart-Lindros-Dye
Dumart-Pronovost
*Going to sub in Stapleton here since Dumart is the F
PK1
Peca-Graham
Pronovost-Foote
*Going to sub in Horton here moving Foote down to 2nd unit
PK2
Prentice-Matthews
Cook/Foote-White
I think Three Rivers has at least a moderate advantage on special teams.
Comparing the top PP units sees Pittsburgh come out ahead comfortably IMO.
Taylor, Bowie, Kucherov is just a more lethal F trio vs Crosby, Joliat, Neely. I don't know if I've seen a better playmaker off the right wall than Kucherov in the last 20 years. The PP usage and output speaks for itself w/him. And now he's surrounded by 4 HOF'er. Bowie is the best goal scorer of the group and sandwiched between Kuch and Taylor should give him plenty of opportunities to bury the puck.
I think the transition game is something to really zero in on w/Three Rivers. You have the best puck moving goalie ever in Broduer, one of the greatest ever on the blueline (Harvey) and a F/D in Taylor who brings McDavid/Orr level speed and puck abilities to the equation.
Then you look at the blue line and I think there is a large gap favoring Harvey/Lapointe vs a young pup in Matthews (Three Rivers PK forwards will put heavy pressure on him specifically) and Horton. I'm not sure how much PP time Horton got but he wasn't an overly strong offensive player and doesn't show up on overpasses special teams study for PP usage. I would personally have much more faith in Harvey/Lapointe being able to transition the puck and generate chances in the neutral/offensive zone based on their history QB'ing PP's on many Cup winners.
I also see Three Rivers ahead as far as 2nd units go. Barry and Schriner are both 90 VsX level offensive players and Morris a low 80's guy. The 1st 2 guys could certainly feature on a lot of 1st units. It's a well balanced group. I'm not sure what to make of Dumart being listed as a F and D on the 2nd unit for Sydney, but I'd wager that should read Stapleton being paired with Pronovost. Even still, I'd take the offensive acumen of Lester Patrick and Mike Grant.
I think the biggest advantage between the PP units are the defensemen. Harvey/Lapointe/Patrick/Grant is just vastly superior to Matthews/Horton/Stapleton/Pronovost.
As far as the PK units go, the Millionaires improve quite a bit. Peca/Graham are Selke level F's who both have fantastic reps as killers, especially Peca. It's harder to quantify the 06 (and earlier) players where data is simply not as robust but the PK reps of both Leswick/Mackell were very strong. You can read about both from past bio's here.
ATD 2013 BIO Thread (quotes, stats, pics, sources, everything)
C Joe Thornton Boston Bruins Captain, 2002-2005 San Jose Sharks Captain, 2010-present 2010 Olympic Gold Medalist 6x NHL All Star Game Participant 05-06 Art Ross Trophy Winner 05-06 Hart Trophy Winner 2x Top 16 Goals(12, 16) 11x Top 12 Assists(1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 7, 8, 10, 12, 12) 8x...
ATD2011 Bio Thread
With the 294th pick in ATD2011, The Regina Pats are pleased to select: Jim Neilson, D - 6'2", 205 lbs - Stanley Cup Finalist (1973) - NHL 2nd All-Star Team (1968) - Also placed 6th, 6th, 9th in All-Star Voting - NHL All-Star Game Participant (1967, 1971) - Top-12 in Defense...
I think it's important for Johnny and I to continue to highlight the skating abilities of our team. Sure, a guy like Taylor gets a lot of the attention but Leswick and Mackell were top shelf skaters, again, plenty of source materials above. Not only in pure speed but their acceleration was superb.
Winning puck battles isn't just about who is strongest. Getting to the puck first also helps quite a bit. Skating and smart positional play is a considerable portion of the pie.
I don't see Horton on the PK which is puzzling to me. Sliding him on the top unit to the right of Pronovost would be the ideal set up. That's a duo who could tread water with Harvey/Lapointe certainly.
Then you'd have Foote/Cook and White on the 2nd unit which probably edges Lapointe/Marshall.
The 2nd team F's of Three Rivers are more dangerous/effective PK'ers in my book (Bourne/Taylor vs Prentice/Matthews). The insane speed/counter ability might make a few splashes in a series that sees a young Matthews handling duties as a F on the blue line, along with guys like Horton and Pronovost who weren't exactly premier PP QB's.
All in all, I'd say Three Rivers has a decent advantage on the whole. I have us pretty comfortably ahead on the PP, largely due to the big difference in defensemen, though the F's are also superior, just to a lesser degree.
The PK is a coin toss, though I'd not complain if someone has Sydney slightly ahead.
Slowing Crosby?
With home ice advantage, Three Rivers will rely on making sure Harvey/Lapointe are on the ice as often as possible when 87 is playing. Harvey's elite combination of defensive acumen/positioning and physicality should wear on Sid throughout. Crosby is quoted as saying Lidstrom was the best defender he ever went up against and Harvey is more or less a better/physical/stronger version of Lid. Sid hasn't always dealt with physicality and air tight defending well and the trio of Harvey/Lapointe/Pulford should bring plenty of that to the table.
These 3 will also be key in keeping Sid from setting up rent free near the net on the PP, as he likes to do in real life. When he flanks out to the wall, the foot speed and PK acumen of Leswick, Mackell, Bourne, and Taylor will put significant pressure and reduce the amount of time Sid has to make a decision. Taking away his time and space is paramount. Players like Sid thrive the more freedom they have to operate.
As far as matchups go, we like Taylor and Mackell's lines going head to head. Taylor's speed and all around ability will keep Sid on his toes. He can't outskate Taylor (or Mackell for that matter) and Taylor's own offensive brilliance will test Sid's defensive traits. Schriner-Taylor-Morris is every bit as potent as Joliat-Crosby-Dye and will have to be respected.
Mackell offers elite speed but in a more defined defensive package. When the Millionaires get a draw in the offensive zone and Sid is on the ice, Mackell will get the call a good bunch but otherwise, a power on power (1st line vs 1st line) showing will take place on Pittsburgh ice.
Three Rivers also has a pair of world class pests in their bottom 6 (Leswick/Lemieux) who will look to needle Sid throughout the series.
Series Prediction: Three Rivers wins 4-1
I think Three Rivers has a pretty clear advantage behind the bench, on the blueline, with the PP and in skating/transition. IMHO we hold serve at F and in net offering little for the Millionaires to really point to as calling cards.
As always, thanks to everyone who's participated. This was another fun and seamless experience!
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