GDT: Blues vs. Kings| FSMW, 9pm|

[BlueSeal]

No your wrong, The issue was the NMC, That was the issue.

Was it the NMC or also all the guaranteed money? Army’s moves after it became clear Pie wasn’t coming back was an obvious act of desperation but what -exactly- went wrong?

It would have looked better on Army had he offered an NMC like the one Binny got.

 

[Reality Czech]

That's not at all the conversation that's happening.

Moving on from Pietrangelo was a watershed moment for this franchise. Its effects will be felt for years, and thus will be talked about...for years.

There's no wailing or gnashing of teeth here, and it's inane to imply that this discussion is basically just some impotent venting or "fanboy" pining.

You never want to think about Pietrangelo again? That's great. Nobody else here is under that restriction.

If people wanna discuss it that's their decision, my only issue is that it's far too early to rate Armstrong for any of this. How do we know Faulk won't continue to play like a #1 and be worth his contract in the end, or that Petro won't live up to his contract in Vegas. Heck, the Blues might get healthy and make another run this year. Nobody knows what will happen, so I feel like we're just going in circles in terms of what there is to discuss. Time will tell if Army made the right call, but it will likely take years to know for sure.

And we can say the Blues walked away from Petro but he also walked away from the team. I don't think he was 100% committed to coming back and he wanted to get as much money as he could. Nothing wrong with that, but I blame both sides equally. They each had a line they weren't willing to cross. Petro could have gone the MacKinnon route to help keep the band together but he wanted to cash in. Good for him. I think the signing bonus money + being a big fish in Vegas with no state tax was enough to lure him away from St. Louis. People act like it was 100% Army's decision to let him go, but I don't see it that way. Loyalty goes both ways.

 

[Mike Liut]

By the actions of Army, he pretty much must have known Petro wasn’t coming back. They probably had some type of agreement in place to make it look like neither side was to blame.

 

[Davimir Tarablad]

Pie - Ed - Bokk >> Faulk

Even with that, we still would need someone to replace Jay and Krug sure as hell ain’t it. Army can still right this by making moves at the TDL and strengthening our Defence. It’s far too shallow, even at full strength and I’d ship off Hoffman as well.

Faulk> Ed+Bokk

Petro could've been signed with Faulk still here.

No your wrong, The issue was the NMC, That was the issue.

Armstrong has never signed a player to a contract with signing bonuses. He reportedly broke that rule in negotiations with Petro, but I'd wager he offered no where near the $35mil in bonuses he got in Vegas

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

No your wrong, The issue was the NMC, That was the issue.

That is what Petro camp wants you to believe.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Was it the NMC or also all the guaranteed money? Army’s moves after it became clear Pie wasn’t coming back was an obvious act of desperation but what -exactly- went wrong?

It would have looked better on Army had he offered an NMC like the one Binny got.

Binny didn’t get nmc.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

At D, even at full strength, there are too many in need of sheltering and it’s very shallow. You got Colt, Faulk and a talented rookie that’s still learning. Much as I like Krug, he’s just not consistent.

And I give Faulk credit, but he’s not as solid a Dman that you’d want on a top 4 line but he plays like he cares and he earns his spot more and more with each game.

Faulk is absolutely top 4D.

 

[BlueSeal]

Faulk is absolutely top 4D.

The way he’s been playing, ABSOLUTELY... but he’s not a talented Dman. It’s the truth.

I feel he’s turned a corner but we’ll see if that continues. I hope it does.

 

[BlueSeal]

That is what Petro camp wants you to believe.

I’m starting to believe this

 

[BlueSeal]

Have we hit rock bottom?

Or is there more falling to do?

Nope, these boys are going to hold. It’s going to be ugly but we’ll be ok.

 

[BlueSeal]

Binny didn’t get nmc.

My bad, I meant the other thing lol

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

The way he’s been playing, ABSOLUTELY... but he’s not a talented Dman. It’s the truth.

I feel he’s turned a corner but we’ll see if that continues. I hope it does.

He is quite talented. Been top pairing defenseman since he was a teenager.

 

[BlueSeal]

He is quite talented. Been top pairing defenseman since he was a teenager.

I bet he had a very strong partner then and suffers when paired wrong.

 

[EastonBlues22]

Petro left bc he wanted more money than we were willing to pay him. THAT was the issue. Everything else is just a$$covering.

Seems odd to me that Armstrong would address the NMC and signing bonus issues (at length) if those weren't really issues, making a big deal out of justifying their positions on those issues, and that Pietrangelo would ask for (and receive) those same things from Vegas if they weren't really important, but whatever.

Either way, there was nothing stopping the Blues from offering the exact same deal that Vegas did but themselves. The Blues could afford it. It wasn't going to wreck the team's payroll structure or prevent them from keeping the core together. Armstrong didn't want to, and Pietrangelo didn't want to take an objectively inferior offer, so here we are.

 

[EastonBlues22]

If people wanna discuss it that's their decision, my only issue is that it's far too early to rate Armstrong for any of this. How do we know Faulk won't continue to play like a #1 and be worth his contract in the end, or that Petro won't live up to his contract in Vegas. Heck, the Blues might get healthy and make another run this year. Nobody knows what will happen, so I feel like we're just going in circles in terms of what there is to discuss. Time will tell if Army made the right call, but it will likely take years to know for sure.

And we can say the Blues walked away from Petro but he also walked away from the team. I don't think he was 100% committed to coming back and he wanted to get as much money as he could. Nothing wrong with that, but I blame both sides equally. They each had a line they weren't willing to cross. Petro could have gone the MacKinnon route to help keep the band together but he wanted to cash in. Good for him. I think the signing bonus money + being a big fish in Vegas with no state tax was enough to lure him away from St. Louis. People act like it was 100% Army's decision to let him go, but I don't see it that way. Loyalty goes both ways.

Agree completely that the book on this is far from written, and that any discussion about Armstrong should be taking into account far more than this one isolated (and incomplete) issue. Also agree completely that both sides walked away from each other.

As an aside, I personally don't believe that the ends necessarily justify the means in terms of process validation. Good processes sometimes yield bad results, and bad processes sometimes yield good results, so I think it's worth looking at things early on to try to analyze the quality of the process before the results come in and bias the analysis with hindsight. (It's worth looking at results, too, but they should add context...not blind validation.)

Take the ROR trade for example. We don't need to know how that story ends to say that the move was a good one to make. We moved two cap dumps, a project prospect, and two picks for a #1 center with term. ROR could destroy both his knees tomorrow and end his career, and Thompson could turn it around and become a top 6 player, and I'd still call that a good trade that Armstrong should make 100% of the time the opportunity arises. Three years of Schenn for Lehtera and two picks was a no-brainer as well.

This particular situation isn't anywhere near as clear-cut as those are, which I think is one reason why the resulting opinions are a lot more diverse.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I wouldn’t say we lack depth. We’ve had insane injuries.

True, but injuries still happen. Not everyone is easily replaceable, but when you looked at our depth going into the season and the first few forwards up were 4th-liners like Mac, Poganski, Walker and even Joshua, that's a problem. That's been borne out because they are a collective 3-1-4 over 36 games. It's not like we had even a 2nd/3rd liner in the system after the season started where you could say "hey, not ideal that we bring them up ASAP but if we do that's not the end of the world, we should be able to get some production along the lines of 10-15-25 out of them over a full season and that can tide us over."

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Seems odd to me that Armstrong would address the NMC and signing bonus issues (at length) if those weren't really issues, making a big deal out of justifying their positions on those issues, and that Pietrangelo would ask for (and receive) those same things from Vegas if they weren't really important, but whatever.

Either way, there was nothing stopping the Blues from offering the exact same deal that Vegas did but themselves. The Blues could afford it. It wasn't going to wreck the team's payroll structure or prevent them from keeping the core together. Armstrong didn't want to, and Pietrangelo didn't want to take an objectively inferior offer, so here we are.

I just wonder: was Brett Hull selfish and ass-covering when he wanted a NTC in 1998 and left us for Dallas? Was Larry Pleau smart to not give in to that? Because it's fascinating to me how in one instance a self-admitted spoiled brat who never took this team beyond the 2nd round but scored a lot of goals and won a Hart Trophy and a Ross Trophy once and openly admitted playing defense was not his job got screwed worse than Brett Hart in Montreal when Pleau wouldn't give Hull everything he wanted, but Pietrangelo who played top-tier defense for years, never bitched about things, was a consummate team player and ultimately captained this franchise to the Cup is a selfish asshole prick bastard when he left because he didn't get what he was asking for.

 

[Honeycutt]

I bet he had a very strong partner then and suffers when paired wrong.

That is an interesting claim, when can we expect you to provide data to back up your "bet". Also, all defensemen suffer when paired wrong. Petro was not petro until he got bouw.

 

[Reality Czech]

I just wonder: was Brett Hull selfish and ass-covering when he wanted a NTC in 1998 and left us for Dallas? Was Larry Pleau smart to not give in to that? Because it's fascinating to me how in one instance a self-admitted spoiled brat who never took this team beyond the 2nd round but scored a lot of goals and won a Hart Trophy and a Ross Trophy once and openly admitted playing defense was not his job got screwed worse than Brett Hart in Montreal when Pleau wouldn't give Hull everything he wanted, but Pietrangelo who played top-tier defense for years, never bitched about things, was a consummate team player and ultimately captained this franchise to the Cup is a selfish asshole prick bastard when he left because he didn't get what he was asking for.

I'd say both of them could be labeled selfish, although it's certainly their right to try and get whatever they can. Hull was a selfish player on the ice and probably off the ice as well, but he earned the right to be. But just because he was more outspoken than Petro doesn't mean Petro isn't just as "selfish" as Brett was. I get the sense that money was Petro's #1 priority, and I've heard in at least one interview that he's kind of cheap with his money. But one big difference is that Hull was 33 years old and still seeking a Cup, whereas Petro left behind a city of adoring fans and his Cup-winning teammates. He certainly wasn't offering up any hometown discount like MacKinnon did, which is his right.

But I would have been more willing to give Hull a blank check rather than Petro. Hull is one of the best goal scorers of all-time and automatic Hall-of-Famer while Petro has never cracked Top 3 in Norris voting over his whole career. Petro is much more replaceable than Hull was. I get the sentimentality of the Cup and everything, but the situations aren't really comparable. Different teams, GMs, circumstances and eras. I just don't think you can generalize like this...I'm sure some people blamed Hull and others blamed Pleau just like some blame Petro while others blame Army. I don't see the need to "blame" anyone, to be honest....it is what it is.

I just think it's a waste of time to argue about this right now because it's possible Petro will never live up to his contract in Vegas and we'll be happy we didn't give in to his demands. Then all of this back and forth will have been for nothing, and I bet the people criticizing Army now won't be around to admit they were wrong.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I just think it's a waste of time to argue about this right now because it's possible Petro will never live up to his contract in Vegas and we'll be happy we didn't give in to his demands. Then all of this back and forth will have been for nothing, and I bet the people criticizing Army now won't be around to admit they were wrong.

That gate could swing both ways. It could be everyone is wrong: Pietrangelo would have been great for 4 years and not having him was to our detriment; he breaks down the last 4 years and that's to Vegas's detriment. Come back in 8 years and we'll find out for sure.

Going back to who was worth the blank check more: you illustrate a value judgment there, which is totally fine and how we keep going back to this discussion. You and probably others assign a higher value to Hull's worth and what he should have been able to get because of his future HOF status, perceived replaceability, etc. Some will assign that higher value to Pietrangelo. Everyone has their own criteria for who was more valuable. I agree, it's not necessarily anyone's fault what happened. I'm looking at it from the point of consistency - neither one was worth more than the other - and asking who was in the right and who was in the wrong.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I just wonder: was Brett Hull selfish and ass-covering when he wanted a NTC in 1998 and left us for Dallas? Was Larry Pleau smart to not give in to that? Because it's fascinating to me how in one instance a self-admitted spoiled brat who never took this team beyond the 2nd round but scored a lot of goals and won a Hart Trophy and a Ross Trophy once and openly admitted playing defense was not his job got screwed worse than Brett Hart in Montreal when Pleau wouldn't give Hull everything he wanted, but Pietrangelo who played top-tier defense for years, never bitched about things, was a consummate team player and ultimately captained this franchise to the Cup is a selfish asshole prick bastard when he left because he didn't get what he was asking for.

Can I think Pietro was mainly acting out of perceived self-interest and in the driver’s seat of this negotiation, without having insults put into my mouth? I don’t really see more than one or two crackpot posters using language like you suggest, and I don’t feel you’re fairly representing a reasonable point of view.

 

[Xerloris]

I just wonder: was Brett Hull selfish and ass-covering when he wanted a NTC in 1998 and left us for Dallas? Was Larry Pleau smart to not give in to that? Because it's fascinating to me how in one instance a self-admitted spoiled brat who never took this team beyond the 2nd round but scored a lot of goals and won a Hart Trophy and a Ross Trophy once and openly admitted playing defense was not his job got screwed worse than Brett Hart in Montreal when Pleau wouldn't give Hull everything he wanted, but Pietrangelo who played top-tier defense for years, never bitched about things, was a consummate team player and ultimately captained this franchise to the Cup is a selfish asshole prick bastard when he left because he didn't get what he was asking for.

Pietrangelo leaving has nothing to do with him being a piece of shit. It's the fact that "his side" tried to play the fans against Armstrong and make himself out to be a poor victim.