Prospect Info: Blues 2024-2025 Prospect Thread

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ChicagoBlues

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I have t seen enough of Bedard to identify any weaknesses that may detract from his generational projection or a leveling down to Dvorsky.

However, his toughness cannot be questioned. Busted jaw and played through it. He might be short, but he is listed at 185#. That’s very good for someone pushing 5’10”. He is not weak.
 

MortiestOfMortys

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The fact that Dvorsky didn’t blow the showcase out of the water makes me think he’s Springfield-bound. Thompson, Kyrou, and Thomas all tore up the Traverse tourney over the years before making it. Dvorsky looked good, and it may have just been nerves, but I don’t think he’s quite ready yet if he isn’t undeniably better than everyone else on the ice like I think he’s capable of being. There’s no rush, we have plenty of depth at the NHL level. Let him get his reps in a learning environment, all the playing time he needs, etc
 

Brian39

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I appreciate your thoughtful and nuanced response. From my standpoint, the word "generational" in almost any context is much closer to 20 years than it is 5-10 years. The reason it's been thrown around in sports so often is because of overhyping. In my eyes, Bedard would either have to be the best player in the prior 20 years OR the prior 10 years AND with no foreseeable prospect realistically better in the next 10 years. Either criteria covers about a 20 year time-frame, and he doesn't come close to meeting either given that Ovechkin was drafted in 2004, Crosby in 2005, Kane in 2007, MacKinnon in 2013, McDavid in 2015, Matthews in 2016, and Jack Hughes in 2019. There's no guarantee he even gets to Matthew's level, who just posted 69 goals in a single season.

Unpopular viewpoint: Dvorsky has a much higher likelihood of become an average 1C than Bedard becoming "generational."
If we're taking generations as 20 years and saying that you can't have overlapping generational players, then Bedard shouldn't have that label. I just think that 20 years is way too long to view a hockey generation. That's the timeline of a generation for the population as a whole, where people have 40+ year long careers and are relevant to society for their entire lives. That's just not the case in sports. A 25 year career is damn near unheard of in hockey and the guys who make it that long certainly aren't in their primes for 20 years. Gretzky won all of his Cups/MVPs by the time he was 28. Sid won all of his Cups/MVPs by the time he was 29. Even for generational players, we're usually talking about 10-12 years where guys are at or around the height of their powers. Crosby is entering his 20th season this year and no one is claiming that we are still in the Crosby generation. That torch passed to McDavid years ago.

I view a hockey 'generation' as roughly a decade. The sport changes so quickly and the careers/primes of players are so short that the league looks completely different every 10 years or so.

The 80s belonged to Gretzky, the Oilers, the Islanders, and high flying goal totals. Gretzky won 9 of the 10 Hart trophies from 1979/80 through 1988/89. Mario snuck one in there, but the trophy belonged to Wayne. The Oilers and Islanders won 8 of the 10 Cups (with the other 2 going to the Habs and Flames). Teams averaged 3.5+ goals per game every single season that decade and averaged 3.7+ in 8 of the 10 years. I'm fine extending this generation a couple years in to the 90s as well. Goals were in the 3.4s the first couple years of the 90s then went up to 3.68 in 1992/93. But that was the last time we've seen teams average 3.5+ goals per game and they plummeted down to 3.24 in 1993/94. The dead puck era was here.

From 1993/94 through the lockout, teams averaged fewer than 3 goals per game in 9 of the 11 seasons. We saw 10 different Hart winners and none of them were Gretzky. We saw 6 different Cup winners and all of them were either first timers or long time drought enders (Rangers, Devils, Avs, Wings, Stars, and Lightning). Gretzky was on his retirement tour. I consider this window to be the generation of the goaltender. The butterfly style had arrived in full force. We had a decade of Roy, Hasek, Marty, and Belfour playing at an absolutely elite level. Hasek won two Hart trophies and then Theodore won another (lol).

The game in 1999/00 is barely comparable to the game in 1980. I just can't lump the mid-late 90s NHL into the same generation as the 1980s.

Then we had a lockout and the league changed dramatically. The league burned an entire season to get a salary cap and then brought in a new rules package and standard of officiating to boost scoring. Sid and Ovi share a rookie season in 2005/06 and are immediately the faces of the league. Crosby won all his Cups and individual awards in the first 12 years of his career. Ovi won his Cup in year 13 and (incredibly) kept winning Rockets through year 15. But now they are in their late 30s and it has been 4 years since either won an award. Neither has won a playoff series since Ovi won his Cup in 2017/18. We're entering their 20th NHL seasons, but it hasn't been their generation for some time now.

I look at a generation as roughly a decade. I think we are over halfway through the generation of McDavid. If Bedard progresses as his resume to date suggests he could, he has a legitimate chance of being better than McDavid in a handful of year. Not better than McDavid's peak, but better than the 30+ year old version of McDavid that will exist at that time. Like Sid passing the torch to McDavid at some point in the late teens, there is a very real chance that McDavid will eventually pass the torch to Bedard at some point in the late 20s. I don't think Bedard being drafted 8 years after McDavid is all that different than McDavid being drafted 10 years after Sid.
 

Brian39

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How upset would people be if he played the year in the CHL?
I have a good amount of trust in our development team, so I defer to them quite a bit. I certainly wouldn't be upset if that is the path that they feel is best for his development.

However, everything I have seen tells me that I believe the AHL to be a better path. I think most top prospects would be better off in the AHL than CHL for their D+2 seasons and I think that is the path most teams would take if the NHL/CHL agreement didn't force them to send most CHL guys back there if they can't crack the NHL.

I would be surprised and potentially concerned if he is back in the CHL this year. But I don't think I'd be upset because the Blues have given me a lot of reasons to trust that they know how to develop players.
 

wiscrev

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Question: If a CHL rookie gets his 9 games and stays on the team, and he's in game 20 and the team wants to send him down, can he then go to the AHL or does he have to go back to the CHL. I would think that once he qualifies to be on the team, it would be the AHL.
 

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Question: If a CHL rookie gets his 9 games and stays on the team, and he's in game 20 and the team wants to send him down, can he then go to the AHL or does he have to go back to the CHL. I would think that once he qualifies to be on the team, it would be the AHL.
Brian explained it a lot better in the other thread but no they can not. A team can still return him to juniors but after the 9 games the ELC will kick in and it will still burn a year to my understanding. A player drafted out of the CHL can't play in the AHL until they are 20. Dvorsky is exempt from this rule as he was drafted out of Europe and later joined the CHL.
 
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Linkens Mastery

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Question: If a CHL rookie gets his 9 games and stays on the team, and he's in game 20 and the team wants to send him down, can he then go to the AHL or does he have to go back to the CHL. I would think that once he qualifies to be on the team, it would be the AHL.
No. CHL rookies drafted out of the CHL only have 2 options if under 20 years old. CHL or NHL. Even if they play 81 NHL games if they send him down he's in the CHL. (Unless the CHL season is over)
 

wiscrev

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Thanks, appreciate the replies. I knew Dvorsky was exempt, was just wondering about others. It's a shame that once the year is burned that they can't go to the AHL. I guess if I was a top prospect, I'd stay clear of the CHL.
 

Brian39

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Thanks, appreciate the replies. I knew Dvorsky was exempt, was just wondering about others. It's a shame that once the year is burned that they can't go to the AHL. I guess if I was a top prospect, I'd stay clear of the CHL.
The NHL/CHL agreement can create issues for a small percentage of players, but it is a great development path for the large majority of NHL prospects, including the top ones.

I don't think there is a better pre-draft development path for a Canadian kid than the CHL offers. In many situations, I think it is a better path for an American than the USHL-to-NCAA path. You're usually when you make the decision to go to the CHL. At that point, 99.9% of 'top prospects' still need to focus on developing into a guy who will get drafted vs focusing on their development after being drafted.

I don't like the NHL/CHL agreement as it exists today, but I don't think it is such a concern that it should turn off too many high end talents from going the CHL route.
 
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Brockon

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The NHL/CHL agreement can create issues for a small percentage of players, but it is a great development path for the large majority of NHL prospects, including the top ones.

I don't think there is a better pre-draft development path for a Canadian kid than the CHL offers. In many situations, I think it is a better path for an American than the USHL-to-NCAA path. You're usually when you make the decision to go to the CHL. At that point, 99.9% of 'top prospects' still need to focus on developing into a guy who will get drafted vs focusing on their development after being drafted.

I don't like the NHL/CHL agreement as it exists today, but I don't think it is such a concern that it should turn off too many high end talents from going the CHL route.

I'd add that the CHL offers more playing time than the USHL/NCAA route in most cases, as the USHL plays a ~60 game season for 1/2 years followed by the NCAA 4 years of 32-38 games IIRC. I'm not exactly clear on the end of season tourney count into the Capfriendly game count vs top players missing games for the WJC. My recollection is that NCAA I've only seen 30-38 or so games a season, not sure how the Frozen four or Beanpot tournaments count into this equation as neither puckpedia nor Capfriendly broke those down as clearly as it does for CHL regular season, playoffs and then memorial cup sections.

The CHL season varies by league WHL, OHL and QJMHL play ~60-70 games, before their playoffs. The CHL league champions then vie in the Memorial cup with the chosen host team making up the 4th team for the round Robin format adding in a few extra games for all teams involved in a particularly high level of competition.

Just in terms of raw numbers, CHL players dress for more games than the US developmental league counterparts, especially if they play an overage season or two.

On a slight tangent I'm utterly fascinated to see how the NCAA lawsuit changes the CHL vs the BCHL/AJHL to NCAA developmental paths as that will open up players choices if the lawsuit results in overturning the current status quo.

I'd imagine if the NCAA pro eligibility standard for the CHL being a pro league vs an amateur one is challenged, that the Shane Wright situation leads to a someone challenging the CHL transfer agreement in the near future - potentially opening the door for NA draftees to be assigned to the AHL rather than being relegated back to the CHL right holders for a limited number of players per team prior to being 20 years old.
 

MortiestOfMortys

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I'd add that the CHL offers more playing time than the USHL/NCAA route in most cases, as the USHL plays a ~60 game season for 1/2 years followed by the NCAA 4 years of 32-38 games IIRC. I'm not exactly clear on the end of season tourney count into the Capfriendly game count vs top players missing games for the WJC. My recollection is that NCAA I've only seen 30-38 or so games a season, not sure how the Frozen four or Beanpot tournaments count into this equation as neither puckpedia nor Capfriendly broke those down as clearly as it does for CHL regular season, playoffs and then memorial cup sections.

The CHL season varies by league WHL, OHL and QJMHL play ~60-70 games, before their playoffs. The CHL league champions then vie in the Memorial cup with the chosen host team making up the 4th team for the round Robin format adding in a few extra games for all teams involved in a particularly high level of competition.

Just in terms of raw numbers, CHL players dress for more games than the US developmental league counterparts, especially if they play an overage season or two.

On a slight tangent I'm utterly fascinated to see how the NCAA lawsuit changes the CHL vs the BCHL/AJHL to NCAA developmental paths as that will open up players choices if the lawsuit results in overturning the current status quo.

I'd imagine if the NCAA pro eligibility standard for the CHL being a pro league vs an amateur one is challenged, that the Shane Wright situation leads to a someone challenging the CHL transfer agreement in the near future - potentially opening the door for NA draftees to be assigned to the AHL rather than being relegated back to the CHL right holders for a limited number of players per team prior to being 20 years old.
If the NCAA eligibility question gets resolved so CHL dudes can play, one would hope that league would proactively seek an agreement with the NHL to that effect. The writing would be on the wall at that point. Negotiating some sort of arrangement where an NHL team can assign like one, maybe two players max to the AHL before their age 20 season is better than letting the floodgates open entirely. It’ll suck financially in terms of ticket sales, but hopefully there’s a way to keep things running all around. Get out ahead of it and make it as beneficial to you as you can, otherwise these “competitor leagues” are gonna eat your lunch.
 

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I'd add that the CHL offers more playing time than the USHL/NCAA route in most cases, as the USHL plays a ~60 game season for 1/2 years followed by the NCAA 4 years of 32-38 games IIRC. I'm not exactly clear on the end of season tourney count into the Capfriendly game count vs top players missing games for the WJC. My recollection is that NCAA I've only seen 30-38 or so games a season, not sure how the Frozen four or Beanpot tournaments count into this equation as neither puckpedia nor Capfriendly broke those down as clearly as it does for CHL regular season, playoffs and then memorial cup sections.

The CHL season varies by league WHL, OHL and QJMHL play ~60-70 games, before their playoffs. The CHL league champions then vie in the Memorial cup with the chosen host team making up the 4th team for the round Robin format adding in a few extra games for all teams involved in a particularly high level of competition.

Just in terms of raw numbers, CHL players dress for more games than the US developmental league counterparts, especially if they play an overage season or two.

On a slight tangent I'm utterly fascinated to see how the NCAA lawsuit changes the CHL vs the BCHL/AJHL to NCAA developmental paths as that will open up players choices if the lawsuit results in overturning the current status quo.

I'd imagine if the NCAA pro eligibility standard for the CHL being a pro league vs an amateur one is challenged, that the Shane Wright situation leads to a someone challenging the CHL transfer agreement in the near future - potentially opening the door for NA draftees to be assigned to the AHL rather than being relegated back to the CHL right holders for a limited number of players per team prior to being 20 years old.
I think we are all expecting CHL guys to be allowed to play in NCAA, likely by next season, but the devil is in the details. One path that could develop is that while CHL players would be eligible, they would need to fulfill their commitment to CHL first. Which would mean it would only apply to 20+ YO players. This would protect the CHL and also provide better path for late developing CHL players than they have currently and wouldn't necessarily change the CHL-NHL agreement..
 

ChicagoBlues

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I’m sure there’s a good handful of CHL players who would like to receive some higher education (and a degree) sooner than later while playing hockey.

Sounds like an opportunity for college hockey in Canada. A tall order, I know.
 

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I’m sure there’s a good handful of CHL players who would like to receive some higher education (and a degree) sooner than later while playing hockey.

Sounds like an opportunity for college hockey in Canada. A tall order, I know.
They actually have college hockey in Canada, USports. And their CHL deal includes scholarship for it.
 
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ChicagoBlues

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They actually have college hockey in Canada, USports. And their CHL deal includes scholarship for it.
I know they have college hockey in Canada. My point is developing college hockey in Canada sounds like a good thing.

What else would be the incentive, besides an education at a top NCAA school? Is the incentive the NIL deal? Am I missing something?
 

Brockon

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They actually have college hockey in Canada, USports. And their CHL deal includes scholarship for it.
Also @ChicagoBlues

Not exactly the same thing with a full ride scholarship here in Canada for a USport team (often perceived as a lower talent level, often featuring CHL players not drafted by the NHL) vs the scholarship provided for completing a 4 year CHL term, which then pays 40k in tuition (10k per year played to the institution of choice for tuition fees).

The CHL scholarship program has criteria for how that money is spent, but beyond that its guaranteed money for time already played for a CHL program. I'm not familiar with how this money can be spent if not used for tuition fees.

U-Sports scholarships come with expectations of academic excellence and are contingent on maintaining a roster spot on the team, which is a competitive environment. This however includes a monthly spending stipend, covers tuition and housing costs in campus dorms.

At least, one of my childhood friend's younger brothers got this offer for himself after being passed over in the NHL draft. He played 4 years for the WHL Kamloops Blazers, finishing his career as the captain. Followed by 5 years of U-Sports at Dalhousie university while completing his mechanical engineering degree.

He played a year and change in the ECHL and finished his pro career a year later playing overseas in Poland.

Currently married and happily employed without regrets, having given a pro career a shot and deciding to pursue his engineering career instead.

So my information is second hand, and dates back to around 2013... But I'd imagine those concepts haven't changed drastically, even if the dollar amount have.

 

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I know they have college hockey in Canada. My point is developing college hockey in Canada sounds like a good thing.

What else would be the incentive, besides an education at a top NCAA school? Is the incentive the NIL deal? Am I missing something?
I am not following what point you are trying to make. Do you think NCAA is going to admit McGill or other Canadian universities? That isn't what I understand is likely to happen. It's more opportunities for Canadian kids to play south of boarder in NCAA.
 

ChicagoBlues

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I am not following what point you are trying to make. Do you think NCAA is going to admit McGill or other Canadian universities? That isn't what I understand is likely to happen. It's more opportunities for Canadian kids to play south of boarder in NCAA.
That's a really weird interpretation. The NCAA admitting McGill? What?

My point is that college hockey in Canada has an opportunity to expand and develop. As @Brockon posted, there are, indeed, opportunities to play college hockey in Canada, but the level of play is not NHL pre-draft quality.

I love the idea of CHL players transferring to the best college hockey programs in the US. That's a fantastic idea. What is also a fantastic idea is for college hockey programs in Canada to develop a league as a developmental track to go along with the CHL. We have NCAA and USHL and the U has mucho opportunity to expand and develop.
 

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That's a really weird interpretation. The NCAA admitting McGill? What?

My point is that college hockey in Canada has an opportunity to expand and develop. As @Brockon posted, there are, indeed, opportunities to play college hockey in Canada, but the level of play is not NHL pre-draft quality.

I love the idea of CHL players transferring to the best college hockey programs in the US. That's a fantastic idea. What is also a fantastic idea is for college hockey programs in Canada to develop a league as a developmental track to go along with the CHL. We have NCAA and USHL and the U has mucho opportunity to expand and develop.
That is quite a leap. NCAA allowing chl players is going to somehow transform usports into great development league? I haven’t done near enough drugs in my life to follow how that is supposed to happen.
 
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