Blue Jays Discussion: Blue Jays rotation in flux

[Mach85]

While I don't have a problem with the Yankees telling A-Rod to stick it becuase he's not gonna get any preferential treatment, it does make Girardi's reasoning look hollow given that they did exactly what you described with Jeter, letting an inferior defensive player an awful hitter at the end of his career continue to get prime PAs at the top of the lineup and the starting SS gig when in all rationality he should've been booted to 3B the moment A-Rod arrived on that roster.

But that's the magic of *swoon* Derek Jeter, I guess. Giftbaskets for everyone.

Buster Olney wrote an article saying something similar, and I don't think I agree. Just because Girardi did this with Jeter doesn't mean he's obligated to do it with A-Rod several years later. He might have realized in the years that passed that he did the wrong thing by deferring to the Jeter mystique and putting a guy whose skills had eroded above the team, and didn't want to repeat that. Now he's getting criticized in the media for learning from his mistakes.

It's valid criticism when one doesn't act consistently with past behaviour when it's based on sound logic, but when it's based on bad reasoning, how can you blame a guy for not being willing to repeat the mistake?

 

[rojac]

It's A-Rod. He's a jerk. Should've have just been dumped on a trash heap behind Yankee Stadium.

 

[Discoverer]

Buster Olney wrote an article saying something similar, and I don't think I agree. Just because Girardi did this with Jeter doesn't mean he's obligated to do it with A-Rod several years later. He might have realized in the years that passed that he did the wrong thing by deferring to the Jeter mystique and putting a guy whose skills had eroded above the team, and didn't want to repeat that. Now he's getting criticized in the media for learning from his mistakes.

It's valid criticism when one doesn't act consistently with past behaviour when it's based on sound logic, but when it's based on bad reasoning, how can you blame a guy for not being willing to repeat the mistake?

Because the Yankees aren't really in contention right now, so giving A-Rod a couple starts and letting him play at 3B for one game isn't going to make a difference for them, and it certainly doesn't remotely compare to letting Jeter start 145 games at SS as a sub-replacement level player. It would also be different if he said "I made a mistake in the past and don't want to do it again" instead of doubling down on the Jeter justification by saying he didn't have any other options to bat second in 2014 when Jeter was the 13th best offensive player on the team and one of the worst qualified hitters in all of baseball.

We're not talking about playing a terrible player at a prime position the entire season and hurting a contending team. We're talking about giving him a couple starts and a single game at 3B.

 

[Eyedea]

Having him start his final game at 3B would have little bearing on the result unless he somehow made 10 defensive errors

 

[ACC1224]

Sounds like Girardi giving A-Rod an F you.

 

[Mach85]

Because the Yankees aren't really in contention right now, so giving A-Rod a couple starts and letting him play at 3B for one game isn't going to make a difference for them, and it certainly doesn't remotely compare to letting Jeter start 145 games at SS as a sub-replacement level player. It would also be different if he said "I made a mistake in the past and don't want to do it again" instead of doubling down on the Jeter justification by saying he didn't have any other options to bat second in 2014 when Jeter was the 13th best offensive player on the team and one of the worst qualified hitters in all of baseball.

We're not talking about playing a terrible player at a prime position the entire season and hurting a contending team. We're talking about giving him a couple starts and a single game at 3B.

When's the last time you heard a manager give a big mea culpa in the media and say "yeah, I totally played that one wrong" though? Especially the manager of the Yankees, and a notoriously stubborn guy like Girardi. If he thinks he played the Jeter thing wrong, I don't think he's gonna come out and say it. I didn't know he said he didn't have anyone else to bat 2nd that year, that's a ridiculous statement. But it doesn't change that blaming him for refusing to make the same mistake twice is pretty unfair.

Blame him for refusing to play A-Rod when they're out of contention, that's fair. When management has traded Miller and Chapman and pretty much admitted they're out of contention and he still uses winning as an excuse, that's fair. When the other option for pinch hitting is Teixeira, who is marginally better at best, that's also fair. But I don't think the "well, he did it for Jeter" is valid.

 

[Discoverer]

When's the last time you heard a manager give a big mea culpa in the media and say "yeah, I totally played that one wrong" though? Especially the manager of the Yankees, and a notoriously stubborn guy like Girardi. If he thinks he played the Jeter thing wrong, I don't think he's gonna come out and say it. I didn't know he said he didn't have anyone else to bat 2nd that year, that's a ridiculous statement. But it doesn't change that blaming him for refusing to make the same mistake twice is pretty unfair.

Blame him for refusing to play A-Rod when they're out of contention, that's fair. When management has traded Miller and Chapman and pretty much admitted they're out of contention and he still uses winning as an excuse, that's fair. When the other option for pinch hitting is Teixeira, who is marginally better at best, that's also fair. But I don't think the "well, he did it for Jeter" is valid.

I think it's perfectly valid because he's only being asked to do it for, at most, a couple of games, so I don't think the "He learned from his mistake" thing holds water.

He hurt a contending 2014 team by giving Jeter a 145 game farewell tour. But no one's asking him to do that. It's one or two games for a team that's several games back of a playoff spot. "My job description does not entail a farewell tour" is ridiculous given his history. Even if he expanded it to say "My job description does not entail a farewell tour anymore", it would still be ridiculous because he's not being asked to hurt the team's chances the way he so obviously did a couple years ago.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

Jeter not moving off SS in 2004 is more selfish that what arod has done TBH

From what I recall they didn't even ask him to move. As the famous Yankee Saying goes "maybe I'm misremembering"

 

[Shimso]

Having him start his final game at 3B would have little bearing on the result unless he somehow made 10 defensive errors

Yeah. 114 games into the season the Yanks are 3.5 games back of third in the division after they won two in a row while Boston lost two in a row. He could be the SP and it'd be a non-factor on this season.

 

[Mach85]

I think it's perfectly valid because he's only being asked to do it for, at most, a couple of games, so I don't think the "He learned from his mistake" thing holds water.

He hurt a contending 2014 team by giving Jeter a 145 game farewell tour. But no one's asking him to do that. It's one or two games for a team that's several games back of a playoff spot. "My job description does not entail a farewell tour" is ridiculous given his history. Even if he expanded it to say "My job description does not entail a farewell tour anymore", it would still be ridiculous because he's not being asked to hurt the team's chances the way he so obviously did a couple years ago.

The Yankees are 3.5 games back of a wild card. Starting him for a series at Fenway could have a significant impact on their season. How long has it been since he's played 3B regularly? Girardi's still trying to win. He definitely should have used Rodriguez as a pinch hitter that one game, and playing him as DH, sure. But blaming him for not pencilling him in at 3B just because he did it with Jeter a few years ago, there are better criticisms to make.

 

[Discoverer]

The Yankees are 3.5 games back of a wild card. Starting him for a series at Fenway could have a significant impact on their season. How long has it been since he's played 3B regularly? Girardi's still trying to win. He definitely should have used Rodriguez as a pinch hitter that one game, and playing him as DH, sure. But blaming him for not pencilling him in at 3B just because he did it with Jeter a few years ago, there are better criticisms to make.

It's not "just because he did it with Jeter." That's a small part of it, and it mostly relates to his ******** justification for the decision.

 

[theaub]

From what I recall they didn't even ask him to move. As the famous Yankee Saying goes "maybe I'm misremembering"

The Yankees never asked because they assumed (and correctly so, based on what happened near the end of Jeter's career) that Jeter would get offended. So A-Rod "volunteered" to move to third base since the players union blocked his deal to Boston and that was the only trade left on the table.

My always fun 'WHAT IF' of the day - we all remember the Jays had an absurdly high amount of payroll to play with in the 2005/2006 offseasons after Rogers bought the Skydome. What happens if they buy it 18 months earlier? You basically go into the 2003 off-season with $35M of payroll per year to play with, and a young team that won 85 games with the previous year's Cy Young winner, and #2/#8 players in MVP voting. Do the Jays go after A-Rod? How ridiculous would a Rodriguez-Delgado-Wells 3/4/5 be?

 

[canucksfan]

Really ?
He said a number of flase statements. The #1 being the Yankees are still trying to win. The Yankees are getting rid of assets. Definitely not trying to win.

It's sports no matter where you are in the standings your goal should be to win. What I don't like about it is they let useless Jeter bat 2nd and play SS when he was hurting the team.

 

[Mach85]

It's not "just because he did it with Jeter." That's a small part of it, and it mostly relates to his ******** justification for the decision.

I did say the rest of the justification for the decision was horrible and are very valid criticisms, it's just the comparisons with the Jeter decision that I think are unreasonable for reasons stated.

 

[Shimso]

The Yankees are 3.5 games back of a wild card. Starting him for a series at Fenway could have a significant impact on their season. How long has it been since he's played 3B regularly? Girardi's still trying to win. He definitely should have used Rodriguez as a pinch hitter that one game, and playing him as DH, sure. But blaming him for not pencilling him in at 3B just because he did it with Jeter a few years ago, there are better criticisms to make.

If they actually think they're fighting for a playoff spot, how come they did what they did at the trade deadline? A couple of innings at 3B isn't really going to change anything IMO.

 

[Mach85]

If they actually think they're fighting for a playoff spot, how come they did what they did at the trade deadline? A couple of innings at 3B isn't really going to change anything IMO.

With the August 1st deadline you have to make a decision to either buy or sell, and they rightly chose to sell. But with almost two months of baseball left, that doesn't mean the manager will not field his best possible team. He has to be accountable to the other guys in the clubhouse. If A-Rod makes a couple errors and they lose those two games, falling 5 games back instead of 1, that's quite the difference.

Look, as I said, I'm not saying staple A-Rod to the bench. Girardi should have played him and there were rightful points of criticism for why he should have. But the Jeter situation I don't think is one of them.

 

[ShaneFalco]

 

[ShaneFalco]

 

[ShaneFalco]

 

[Morgs]

Man Tulo needs to move up in the lineup. Should be in front of Martin and Saunders on a consistant basis.

 

[Leafin]

I'd leave Tulo where he is. He's finally come around and is producing. Pretty clearly a routine/superstition type where changes affect his play.

I really hope his play continues. He's MVP quality when firing.

 

[Morgs]

I'd leave Tulo where he is. He's finally come around and is producing. Pretty clearly a routine/superstition type where changes affect his play.

I really hope his play continues. He's MVP quality when firing.

You really want the current blackhole bat of Saunders protecting Eddy?

Not that big of a deal on a day to day basis, but it could give him an extra AB for the rest of the year and get him comfortable in the spot for the playoffs.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

You really want the current blackhole bat of Saunders protecting Eddy?

Not that big of a deal on a day to day basis, but it could give him an extra AB for the rest of the year and get him comfortable in the spot for the playoffs.

My God, I love baseball. It truly is a beautiful thing.

 

[Morgs]

My God, I love baseball. It truly is a beautiful thing.

I know I'm exaggerating, but he's been pretty brutal since what, the all-star break?

88 PA, .153/.295/.319 - 17.0%/34.1% BB%/K%, .167 ISO, 66 wRC+

I know it's a small sample size, but maybe just maybe the baseball gods are making him regress to before his career season?

 

[AllDay28]

I know I'm exaggerating, but he's been pretty brutal since what, the all-star break?

.152 AVG / .298 OBP.

Damn I struggled figuring that out, let alone figuring out his slugging, wRC+, ISO, K% and more..

+1 Respect for Zeke.

.300ish OBP isn't exactly a "black hole"