Blow this team up already!

[colchar]

I give the leafs core 4 a lot of shit and call them whiney, entitled, spoiled, and all that stuff. But I've always attributed it to a culture created by Dubas. And I don't think it's possible for Treliving or any other gm to make the stink that Dubas created just disappear.

The problem with this team is that it is entirely built top to bottom to cater in every way to the core 4. It succeeds based on them and it fails based on them. As I pointed out in this thread, they've now tried surrounding the core four with almost EIGHTY different players to try and make it work in the playoffs. A TOP to bottom turn over of every single solitary player, position, management position other than Morgan Reilly. I guess we can include him in the core. Friedman said that numerous leaf players/management called him after the loss to Florida and complained about how everything is catered to the core 4.

I genuinely believe that the lack of playoff success is a sum of the parts of the core 4. I think Marner, Nylander, and Matthews would all massively succeed in the playoffs if they respectively were traded to other competitive teams. But to have half the cap on 4 forwards means that the opposing team will almost assuredly have better D and goaltending and depth scoring. So shut down our core 4 in the playoffs. Hyperfocus them. Succeed. We've seen that precise thing happen 8 of the past 9 playoff series.

It's not anything personally against these players, but the whole thing needs to be blown up because it's a disgusting way to structure a team that can succeed in the playoffs.

Created by Dubas? Shanahan played a role.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Created by Dubas? Shanahan played a role.

Oh, I agree. Rookie President hired a rookie gm who hired a rookie coach.

Just think about it. All of that player potential put into the hands people who self described themselves as "learning as they go". It's a flat out atrocity. How the HELL did the mlse board allow this to happen?

 

[egd27]

Created by Dubas? Shanahan played a role.

Shanahan had the right idea initially with an experienced GM, an experienced coach and a draft rebuild where "there would be pain"

Then he bought the snake oil Dubas was peddling about analytics, nu-hockey, and getting rid of the "dinosaurs".

And as soon as he got the keys, he had to be the guy that landed an $11M second line centre, tell the world "we can and we will", undermine his coach, and replace him with his Jr. A coach from the Soo.

The rest is the sad history of what could of been.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Shanahan had the right idea initially with an experienced GM, an experienced coach and a draft rebuild where "there would be pain"

Then he bought the snake oil Dubas was peddling about analytics, nu-hockey, and getting rid of the "dinosaurs".

And as soon as he got the keys, he had to be the guy that landed an $11M second line centre, tell the world "we can and we will", undermine his coach, and replace him with his Jr. A coach from the Soo.

The rest is the sad history of what could of been.

I was kind of on the fence about keeping Dubas after the season ended and he said "Everything is on the table" about making some big changes. I wasn't crazy about Shanny all of a sudden deciding that Dubas wasn't the guy when there was a powerplay threatening his job and his self preservation kicked in....but...in saying that, it doesn't look like Dubas learned a thing from his mistakes and did the same stuff in Pittsburgh (Getting Karlsson when they have Letang, signing an average goalie to a stupid contract etc.) ...So let's see what the future brings us in terms of management if everyone gets turfed.

 

[Racer88]

I was kind of on the fence about keeping Dubas after the season ended and he said "Everything is on the table" about making some big changes. I wasn't crazy about Shanny all of a sudden deciding that Dubas wasn't the guy when there was a powerplay threatening his job and his self preservation kicked in....but...in saying that, it doesn't look like Dubas learned a thing from his mistakes and did the same stuff in Pittsburgh (Getting Karlsson when they have Letang, signing an average goalie to a stupid contract etc.) ...So let's see what the future brings us in terms of management if everyone gets turfed.

Dubas will never learn anything because he doesn’t think he did anything wrong

 

[Action Jackson]

Shanahan had the right idea initially with an experienced GM, an experienced coach and a draft rebuild where "there would be pain"

Then he bought the snake oil Dubas was peddling about analytics, nu-hockey, and getting rid of the "dinosaurs".

And as soon as he got the keys, he had to be the guy that landed an $11M second line centre, tell the world "we can and we will", undermine his coach, and replace him with his Jr. A coach from the Soo.

The rest is the sad history of what could of been.

Lol @ thinking JT is the problem. The guy who scores big goals every playoffs, including this year. The guy who wasn't even there for the choke job against the habs. You know whos fault it was, don't play stupid.

 

[egd27]

Lol @ thinking JT is the problem. The guy who scores big goals every playoffs, including this year. The guy who wasn't even there for the choke job against the habs. You know whos fault it was, don't play stupid.

I don't think JT the player is the problem. I do think his contract for the role / position he occupies is. And although the defenders of the previous GM will argue that his contract did not impact the internal salary structure of the RFA negotiations, IMO that's nonsense.

I've been a JT fan since he was an Oshawa General, but he was not the right move at the time for a what should have been a rebuilding team.

Not sure exactly how you interpreted that I thought JT was the THE problem. The fault lies with Shanahan being taken in by Dubas' BS vision of of the "future of hockey" and allowing him to try and implement it

 

[BLONG7]

Guys, I think if you have a different coach, you get some different results......Keefe just is not the guy.

 

[rutz]

Lol @ thinking JT is the problem. The guy who scores big goals every playoffs, including this year. The guy who wasn't even there for the choke job against the habs. You know whos fault it was, don't play stupid.

The problem in a salary cap world is a Stanley Cup Champion does not pay a 2nd line centre $11 million dollars per season. The makeup of this team is missing a true #1 Vezina calibre goalie, a true #1 stud RH defence man with a bomb shot from the point and 5-7 lumberjack defence man built for tough playoff hockey. Having a 4th line that kills penalties, hits, fights and chips in the odd goal. To do this Dubas would have not kept the Core 4 together and not have Malgin midgets on this team.

 

[Al14]

Oh, I agree. Rookie President hired a rookie gm who hired a rookie coach.

Just think about it. All of that player potential put into the hands people who self described themselves as "learning as they go". It's a flat out atrocity. How the HELL did the mlse board allow this to happen?

What is worse, is they CONTINUE to allow it to go on and on. Heads (Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe) should have rolled after losing to the Habs in the playoffs.

 

[NVious]

Lol @ thinking JT is the problem. The guy who scores big goals every playoffs, including this year. The guy who wasn't even there for the choke job against the habs. You know whos fault it was, don't play stupid.

In 33 playoff games he has 11 goals and 23 points

Tavares is the 9th highest paid player in the NHL and was what top 3-5 when he signed the contract?

He ranks 49th in p/60 in active players in the playoffs and 26th in g/60, based on these metrics you can say he is the 39th best forward in the playoffs.

This basically excludes D and goalies, so Tavares for a top 5-10 salary is basically giving us a performance of the best 50th-70th player in the NHL at the low low cost of 11 million per year

 

[NVious]

Some more stats about the core,

Nylander season vs playoffs:

G/60	A/60	P/60

1.231

1.764

2.994

1.139

1.542

2.681

Marner:

1.017

2.333

3.350

0.519

1.972

2.491

Matthews:

1.985

1.516

3.501

1.200

1.252

2.451

Tavares:

1.274

1.631

2.905

1.196

1.144

2.340

Nylander has the lowest dropoff, Marner goes from 102 g/60 to 197, Morgan Rielly is 202, he goes from 12th in p/60 to 33, Matthews from 8th p/60 to 39th just ahead of Rielly Smith and Ryan O'Rielly and probably the most insane stat;
Matthews goes from far and away best scorer in the league at 2gp/60 (1.985), Ovie, Kaprizov and Pasta being 1.7 to 25th at 1.2 (Tavares is at 1.196)

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Dubas will never learn anything because he doesn’t think he did anything wrong

I agree with you on that. It's a big problem when you can't identify mistakes that have been made and they get repeated. There are only so many times you can use "Randomness and keep knocking on the door" as your mantra IMO.

 

[Tak7]

Guys, I think if you have a different coach, you get some different results......Keefe just is not the guy.

A different coach is still going to have to over-rely on the overpaid & underperforming core.

Despite liking Keefe, I think it's probably time to try something different here. With that being said, I'm not convinced coaching makes a huge amount of difference other than potentially just changing the mood / feel of things. Game 3 felt incredibly stale - like we'd seen this script before.

 

[Maple Leaf]

A different coach is still going to have to over-rely on the overpaid & underperforming core.

Despite liking Keefe, I think it's probably time to try something different here. With that being said, I'm not convinced coaching makes a huge amount of difference other than potentially just changing the mood / feel of things. Game 3 felt incredibly stale - like we'd seen this script before.

You alright mate]]

agreed swap the core florida style

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Shanahan had the right idea initially with an experienced GM, an experienced coach and a draft rebuild where "there would be pain"

Then he bought the snake oil Dubas was peddling about analytics, nu-hockey, and getting rid of the "dinosaurs".

And as soon as he got the keys, he had to be the guy that landed an $11M second line centre, tell the world "we can and we will", undermine his coach, and replace him with his Jr. A coach from the Soo.

The rest is the sad history of what could of been.

Good post. This is how I see their recent history.

I don't know if you're anything like me, but I am just not invested in this team. I will always be a leafs fan, but never this version. Can you blame me? What's there to get behind. Playoff Futility is hard to cheer for.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Good post. This is how I see their recent history.

I don't know if you're anything like me, but I am just not invested in this team. I will always be a leafs fan, but never this version. Can you blame me? What's there to get behind. Playoff Futility is hard to cheer for.

How about the greatest goal scorer in Maple Leafs history

 

[Leafshater67]

It sucks Dubas screwed up contract negotiations so badly that they can’t trade Marner for anything. I’d trade the rights to resigning him for whatever they could get and move on. They will not win paying a guy like him 13m. They already picked their guy when they signed Nylander to that deal.

I hope Domi and Bertuzzi stay while Keefe, Marner and Edmundson go.

 

[egd27]

Good post. This is how I see their recent history.

I don't know if you're anything like me, but I am just not invested in this team. I will always be a leafs fan, but never this version. Can you blame me? What's there to get behind. Playoff Futility is hard to cheer for.

I still like the team and honestly believe that with a solid coach (no cap implications on coaches) they could be so much better than they are.

That said, until JT's contract is up, and they make the right decision in Marner's next contract, I can't see them winning a Cup, but there is no reason this collection of guys, playing a proper system, can't win a couple of rounds.

I just don't see it with Keefe and his bungling

 

[Ianturnedbull]

How about the greatest goal scorer in Maple Leafs history

He's OK. I don't love him. Sorry die hard fans.

I think I only like Rielly at this point.

 

[Leaf Fans]

He's OK. I don't love him. Sorry die hard fans.

I think I only like Rielly at this point.

Sorry about what?

 

[Ports]

Matthews and Nylander aren’t going anywhere but my guess is Marner and Tavares won’t be around after next season. The 2025-26 season is when the real rebuild will begin with a lot of cap space available. It wouldn’t bother me to see Rielly traded as he’s not a first pairing dman on a cup contender but being paid like one. It will be interesting to see if they can trade Marner this off season. He’s clearly not worth what he’ll be asking for on his next contract and doesn’t seem cut out for the Toronto market.

I thought lily had a decent game and was our best defender today so I'm a bit confused

Did you see the winning goal ?

 

[Ports]

He's OK. I don't love him. Sorry die hard fans.

I think I only like Rielly at this point.

Rielly over Matthews ? Rielly is at best a second pairing dman on a cup contender. Can’t run a PP. Average at best defensively. I like the guy but the player is totally overrated.

 

[arso40]

Matthews and Nylander aren’t going anywhere but my guess is Marner and Tavares won’t be around after next season. The 2025-26 season is when the real rebuild will begin with a lot of cap space available. It wouldn’t bother me to see Rielly traded as he’s not a first pairing dman on a cup contender but being paid like one. It will be interesting to see if they can trade Marner this off season. He’s clearly not worth what he’ll be asking for on his next contract and doesn’t seem cut out for the Toronto market.


Did you see the winning goal ?

Not game 3

 

[Ports]

Not game 3

Fair enough but he’s over matched and only in the league because he’s a RD.