Blame Game

[expatriatedtexan]

If by wheels in motion, you mean they had already decided to trade Mikko, and weren't interested in negotiating, I would agree. I think that's probably what happened.

Otherwise, if there was a price they would accept to keep Mikko, and he dropped his price and said he was flexible, with 1.5 months to go before the deadline, there was plenty of time to continue negotiating.

I just think the early talks with Carolina about Marty (either early season or off season can't remember) signals they weren't going to keep Mikko unless he signed the kind of low ball offer they knew he wouldn't sign. Nobody, including anyone here, would leave $1-2M a year on the table over 8 years. That's turning down potentially $10-15M.

So I think the "negotiations" were more for PR so they could say they tried to keep a fan favorite core player. That's why Mikko, his agent, Nate, Cale, Landy, EJ, and probably others seemed so confused at what happened, and why he was traded so early.

I wonder how much of that applies to Kadri's negotiations as well. They could have kept him, EJ, and Manson if they wanted by trading Compher, but they didn't.

I think they might have just decided to move on from Naz because of his age, unless he similarly came at a low ball price they knew he wouldn't sign, and I think they actually wanted to try Compher at 2C and save some cap space, because they got by with him at 2C for a bit in the playoffs, while Naz was injured.

There might have been 1.5 months until the deadline, but how long does it take to complete a deal for someone of Mikko's stature.

This isn't something that could wait until the deadline and the Avs were clear with Mikko, it would not go to the deadline. His final offer was to be flexible. Not to accept an offer. Not to counter offer. To just simply say he would like to continue to negotiate. Bullshit. After what happened with Stastny, any GM that didn't trade Mikko in this situation should be fired for cause.

 

[Foppa2118]

He dropped his price right after the FAFO curve expired. Like I said, had he come to management and said, I accept your last offer things very well could have gone differently. But the fact is he said he's be "flexible". That's akin to Stastny saying he'll take a "hometown discount". Mikko didn't do anything by going to management other than try a new negotiating angle. The thing is, he was still wanting/demanding to negotiate. The Avs had a deal in the works that had certainity.

I understand you love Mikko, but at no time was he reasonable in these negotiations. In fact, the first time he may have taking these negotiations seriously was his final attempt apealling directly to management rather than through his agent. But he still didn't accept their offer. He just said he'd be flexible. Fact is, much like my wife on the the Crazy/Hot curve, Mikko came out on the wrong side of the FAFO curve.

I don't think there was any FAFO going on. This was a business negotiation. They had 1.5 months left until the trade deadline, and like 5 months total before he became a UFA.

Pretty much everyone expected them to continue negotiating until the summer like Gabe. Then they leaked the potential trade to Lavoie. Then everyone still thought they'd continue negotiating until the deadline. But they didn't. How can anyone negotiate with a party that is operating on a timeline of their own that's so abnormal from what they've done before?

I think I've mentioned in our conversations before that my view on this isn't because Mikko was a big favorite of mine. There are multiple other players on the team that I was bigger fans of.

I just think the team didn't neogaite in good faith. They took for granted a key player like they had done before, and galaxy brained their way into some creative trade that may have made the team worse, not better, and certainly played a huge role in them losing in the playoffs with a team that could win the Cup.

There might have been 1.5 months until the deadline, but how long does it take to complete a deal for someone of Mikko's stature.

This isn't something that could wait until the deadline and the Avs were clear with Mikko, it would not go to the deadline. His final offer was to be flexible. Not to accept an offer. Not to counter offer. To just simply say he would like to continue to negotiate. Bullshit. After what happened with Stastny, any GM that didn't trade Mikko in this situation should be fired for cause.

They negotiated with their captain up until literally hours before he became a UFA. Stopping negotiations 1.5 months before the deadline is way off that timeline.

That's the precedent Mikko's side was operating under, and what pretty much everyone here expected it to play out like. They'd just keep negotiating and either re-sign him or let him walk. Just like Naz, Landy, Burky, Grubauer, Saad, ERod, and everyone else.

Avs are notorious hardball negotiators. And they take things to the brink almost every time. The only way to counter that is to play hard ball yourself, and plan on negotiating up until the brink, just like they do.

IMO, if anyone FAFO it's the Avs front office.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

I don't think there was any FAFO going on. This was a business negotiation. They had 1.5 months left until the trade deadline, and like 5 months total before he became a UFA.

Pretty much everyone expected them to continue negotiating until the summer like Gabe. Then they leaked the potential trade to Lavoie. Then everyone still thought they'd continue negating until the deadline. But they didn't. How can anyone negotiate with a party that is operating on a timeline of their own that's so abnormal from what they've done before?

I think I've mentioned in conversations before that my view on this isn't because Mikko was a big favorite of mine. There are multiple other players on the team that I was bigger fans of.

I just think the team didn't neogaite in good faith. They took for granted a key player like they had done before, and galaxy brained their way into some creative trade that may have made the team worse, not better, and certainly played a huge role in them losing in the playoffs with a team that could win the Cup.



They negotiated with their captain up until literally hours before he became a UFA. That's the precedent Mikko's side was operating under, and what pretty much everyone here expected it to play out like. They'd just keep negotiating.

Avs are notorious hardball negotiators. And they take things to the brink almost every time. The only way to counter that is to play hard ball yourself, and plan on negating up until the brink, just like they do.

IMO, if anyone FAFO it's the Avs front office.

He was their captain. Heading into what amounted to be their only Stanley Cup Finals appearance and victory. He also went on to completely destroy his god-damned body for this team. I have loved the Moose a lot over the years and still do, but I think it takes some f***ing balls to compare Mikko to Landeskog.

We simply are not in a situation where we can even remotely see things the same. I'm not discouraging your opinions at all, I'm just going to quit engaging in some of them though buddy.

No harm no foul, we just are going to disagree on this one I think until the end of time so no real use in my continuing to egg you on to say the same things by me saying the same things over and over all summer.

I'm sure we'll be playing the +/- game soon enough.

 

[the_fan]

And I won't go back to all the times we got bounced prior to 2022 when CMac stubbornly would not move Mikko to the second line.

I think in actuallity what we are saying is that nothing less than a full sweep will do. Both managmenet and coaching sucks donkey balls.

Yeah, all I know or believe in is that we probably gonna need a big change, whether it’s GM or coaching change and some roster reconstruction to win the cup again. It needs to happen soon because the time is running out for this core

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Yeah, all I know or believe in is that we probably gonna need a big change, whether it’s GM or coaching change and some roster reconstruction to win the cup again. It needs to happen soon because the time is running out for this core

Yeah, I think the healthy thing for me to do is basically bow out of the blame game.

I think we all agree there was plenty to go around between Management, Coaching and the Players. Fairly certain my view was clear so not much more to add other than completely agreeing... it's gonna take some change. You see....

I was born by the Colorado river​

In a little tent​

Oh and just like the river I've been runnin'​

Ever sense​

It's been a long... a long time comin'​

But I know oh... a change goonna come​

Oh yes it will...​

My apologies to Sam Cooke.

 

[AnimalMother73]

I really do wish they’d wipe the slate clean including Sakic. The team’s philosophy of speed and skill is great for regular season wannabes but rarely wins in the playoffs. Watching Necas, at 6’3”, get repeatedly rag dolled in the playoffs was something. Go look at the Panthers, no one is gonna stop them IMO the are optimally built for playoff hockey.

 

[Alienblood]

I really do wish they’d wipe the slate clean including Sakic. The team’s philosophy of speed and skill is great for regular season wannabes but rarely wins in the playoffs. Watching Necas, at 6’3”, get repeatedly rag dolled in the playoffs was something. Go look at the Panthers, no one is gonna stop them IMO the are optimally built for playoff hockey.

I lost a lot if respect for Sakic , he should know but he doesn't. Yzerman doesn't either

 

[The Kingslayer]

Can we blame @The Kingslayer for that awful avatar he was rocking?

The Avs season went to shit after I changed it. They made the playoffs because of it.

 

[SB]

So, if Dallas wins the whole thing, does that change anyone's outlook?

The Avs didn't perform in the clutch situations; the Stars did. To me, it's that simple. You have to step up and take it if you are a champion. So many players were flat, and perhaps (probably, in fact) the coach is partly to blame for that. Not absolving him of missteps, but he can't perform on the ice. As someone mentioned previously, it isn't his fault Lehky missed wide-open net, Makar's stick broke, so on and so forth.

 

[the_fan]

Sakic and CMac’s answer to every question is “as long as we have MacKinnon and Makar, we always have a chance to win”

That’s a good philosophy if it’s the NBA. CMac aside, I’m surprised Sakic has that same thinking for a guy who’s one of the best players in NHL history.

They are pretty much saying we can surround Nate and Cale with anyone and still win. If they keep thinking that way, we aren’t winning another cup with this core

 

[Alienblood]

Sakic and CMac’s answer to every question is “as long as we have MacKinnon and Makar, we always have a chance to win”

That’s a good philosophy if it’s the NBA. CMac aside, I’m surprised Sakic has that same thinking for a guy who’s one of the best players in NHL history.

They are pretty much saying we can surround Nate and Cale with anyone and still win. If they keep thinking that way, we aren’t winning another cup with this core

sells tickets

 

[Alienblood]

So, if Dallas wins the whole thing, does that change anyone's outlook?

The Avs didn't perform in the clutch situations; the Stars did. To me, it's that simple. You have to step up and take it if you are a champion. So many players were flat, and perhaps (probably, in fact) the coach is partly to blame for that. Not absolving him of missteps, but he can't perform on the ice. As someone mentioned previously, it isn't his fault Lehky missed wide-open net, Makar's stick broke, so on and so forth.

practice would be nice

 

[the_fan]

sells tickets

Yup, seems like that’s all they really care about and one cup in 2022 was enough

 

[Alienblood]

Yup, seems like that’s all they really care about and one cup in 2022 was enough

bingo

 

[LOFIN]

He dropped his price right after the FAFO curve expired. Like I said, had he come to management and said, I accept your last offer things very well could have gone differently. But the fact is he said he's be "flexible". That's akin to Stastny saying he'll take a "hometown discount". Mikko didn't do anything by going to management other than try a new negotiating angle. The thing is, he was still wanting/demanding to negotiate. The Avs had a deal in the works that had certainity.

I understand you love Mikko, but at no time was he reasonable in these negotiations. In fact, the first time he may have taking these negotiations seriously was his final attempt apealling directly to management rather than through his agent. But he still didn't accept their offer. He just said he'd be flexible. Fact is, much like my wife on the the Crazy/Hot curve, Mikko came out on the wrong side of the FAFO curve.

You are continuously saying that Mikko should've known the time for negotiations has passed, when this was LITERALLY the first time a player of his caliber was traded in this situation way before the deadline.

As of right now, we've replaced Mikko's 12ish million dollars for next year with the combination of Necas and Coyle. If that's the option today, I would actually prefer to have Mikko. We'll see how it goes, can still turn out well for the Avs.

But we better see a cup final in the least during the next 5ish years of this trade. Because if not, should've just kept the band back together for good memories sake if we are not sniffing another cup after these moves.

 

[Avsfan1921]

But we better see a cup final in the least during the next 5ish years of this trade. Because if not, should've just kept the band back together for good memories sake if we are not sniffing another cup after these moves.

this sounds like a Toronto management viewpoint. Why would you want to run it back over and over for good memories sake?

It’s better to try and fail than not try and fail.

 

[AslanRH]

If MacK and Makar's playoff performance dip was because their buddy was traded, perhaps we should rethink some things.
A post trade regular season dip might be acceptable and even expected.
"Elite" players are expected play their best at consequential times or they are just really good players.
Perhaps the window has closed.

side note:
I don't think the Landeskog negotiation timeline and Mikko timeline are as comparable as some.
I don't recall (even from the most pescimistic on this board) much concern that Landy would holdout/walk in either of his negotiations.
I remember plenty of concern in Mikko's first negotiation he would easily move on/force his way out if he didn't get the money he wanted.
This time, he had an avenue at the end of the season to do just that.

 

[The Abusement Park]

You are continuously saying that Mikko should've known the time for negotiations has passed, when this was LITERALLY the first time a player of his caliber was traded in this situation way before the deadline.

As of right now, we've replaced Mikko's 12ish million dollars for next year with the combination of Necas and Coyle. If that's the option today, I would actually prefer to have Mikko. We'll see how it goes, can still turn out well for the Avs.

But we better see a cup final in the least during the next 5ish years of this trade. Because if not, should've just kept the band back together for good memories sake if we are not sniffing another cup after these moves.

Yeah this is my biggest point of contention with the Mikko trade. And there's still time for this to be changed. But the whole point was to improve the depth of the team and right now we have a major downgrade at 1W, a good 4C and a 3C who will be playing 2C.

In theory I get why they made the trade, but they took the additional cap space and made a shit ton of win now moves, got much older and completely depleted the asset base of the team. It's tough to look at the move very positively for me right now.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Yeah this is my biggest point of contention with the Mikko trade. And there's still time for this to be changed. But the whole point was to improve the depth of the team and right now we have a major downgrade at 1W, a good 4C and a 3C who will be playing 2C.

In theory I get why they made the trade, but they took the additional cap space and made a shit ton of win now moves, got much older and completely depleted the asset base of the team. It's tough to look at the move very positively for me right now.

At the same time, we can complain that his cap space isn’t ideally utilized, but the reality is, today, the Avs have SOME cap space maneuverability. Not much, but some.

Take away Necas and Drury and Coyle and swap in Rantanen and we’d have significantly more trouble to ice a competent team. We’d have an extra Million to work with, but we’d have to replace 2 additional players. And we’d have no 2C nor 3C, who typically cost more cap than similar calibre wingers.

 

[The Abusement Park]

At the same time, we can complain that his cap space isn’t ideally utilized, but the reality is, today, the Avs have SOME cap space maneuverability. Not much, but some.

Take away Necas and Drury and Coyle and swap in Rantanen and we’d have significantly more trouble to ice a competent team. We’d have an extra Million to work with, but we’d have to replace 2 additional players. And we’d have no 2C nor 3C, who typically cost more cap than similar calibre wingers.

For sure. But the way CMac went about things make getting those additions will be more difficult. We have more cap space, but the assets spent weren’t on guys with a ton of if any term. So now FA will be the most likely way to add to the roster unless they’re trading some guys off the roster to acquire what’s needed or to replenish the asset base.

Like I said, I get why they made the trade. But I do not like how they followed up said trade.

 

[shadow1]

I agree with the discussion, I see everything as boiling down to two questions:

Question #1: Did Colorado make the right decision in trading Mikko?

Short term, it blew up in their faces spectacularly. Long term, the jury's still out.

Question #2: Did Colorado properly utilize the benefits (cap space, flexibility) of trading Mikko?

(-)Pending UFAs, traded Mittelstadt, Parssinen, Ritchie, Zellers, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th for Coyle, Dufour, Kempf, 5th. The answer is an unequivocal no. Colorado doesn't control the rights of its biggest acquisitions. And those players performed poorly overall.

Everything boils down to Question #2. If the Avalanche had won the Cup this year, this thread wouldn't exist. Alternatively, if MacFarland trades all of those assets for a building block (or two) with team control, the outlook is considerably brighter. Colorado has almost $9M in cap space, with nearly $4M directly from the Mikko trade, so we still have to wait for the other shoe to drop. Whatever form that takes (re-signing, trade, UFA), the Avalanche are operating from a disadvantage. They have clear needs (2C - again) and limited means (assets, cap) to address them. This is why I believe MacFarland should've been fired. Colorado's wounds are self-inflicted, and it will take a stroke of brilliance to heal them.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I agree with the discussion, I see everything as boiling down to two questions:

Question #1: Did Colorado make the right decision in trading Mikko?

Short term, it blew up in their faces spectacularly. Long term, the jury's still out.

Question #2: Did Colorado properly utilize the benefits (cap space, flexibility) of trading Mikko?

(-)Pending UFAs, traded Mittelstadt, Parssinen, Ritchie, Zellers, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th for Coyle, Dufour, Kempf, 5th. The answer is an unequivocal no. Colorado doesn't control the rights of its biggest acquisitions. And those players performed poorly overall.

Everything boils down to Question #2. If the Avalanche had won the Cup this year, this thread wouldn't exist. Alternatively, if MacFarland trades all of those assets for a building block (or two) with team control, the outlook is considerably brighter. Colorado has almost $9M in cap space, with nearly $4M directly from the Mikko trade, so we still have to wait for the other shoe to drop. Whatever form that takes (re-signing, trade, UFA), the Avalanche are operating from a disadvantage. They have clear needs (2C - again) and limited means (assets, cap) to address them. This is why I believe MacFarland should've been fired. Colorado's wounds are self-inflicted, and it will take a stroke of brilliance to heal them.

This is my biggest issue here. If the Avs were so dead set on trading Mikko which was pretty clearly the case this is something that should've been done in the offseason. Making that trade when they really handicapped what they could get in return and didn't give them as much time or as many options to replace Mikko as would be ideal. They made the best of what they could in season, but at the same time it mortgaged the future more than they would have wanted imo.

 

[EdAVSfan]

I agree with the discussion, I see everything as boiling down to two questions:

Question #1: Did Colorado make the right decision in trading Mikko?

Short term, it blew up in their faces spectacularly. Long term, the jury's still out.

Question #2: Did Colorado properly utilize the benefits (cap space, flexibility) of trading Mikko?

(-)Pending UFAs, traded Mittelstadt, Parssinen, Ritchie, Zellers, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th for Coyle, Dufour, Kempf, 5th. The answer is an unequivocal no. Colorado doesn't control the rights of its biggest acquisitions. And those players performed poorly overall.

Everything boils down to Question #2. If the Avalanche had won the Cup this year, this thread wouldn't exist. Alternatively, if MacFarland trades all of those assets for a building block (or two) with team control, the outlook is considerably brighter. Colorado has almost $9M in cap space, with nearly $4M directly from the Mikko trade, so we still have to wait for the other shoe to drop. Whatever form that takes (re-signing, trade, UFA), the Avalanche are operating from a disadvantage. They have clear needs (2C - again) and limited means (assets, cap) to address them. This is why I believe MacFarland should've been fired. Colorado's wounds are self-inflicted, and it will take a stroke of brilliance to heal them.

Question 2, I think, is far more complex.

The question also should include: do all of those assets still go out if they don’t trade Mikko? Which trades are still made even if the Avs re-sign Rantanen?
I would say for certain we make at least 2 of those trades.
Because from the Mikko trade, the Avs only traded away the 2nd and 4th. Necas and Drury are still here. The other assets moved out aren’t 100% linked to Mikko being traded.

 

[Foppa2118]

I agree with the discussion, I see everything as boiling down to two questions:

Question #1: Did Colorado make the right decision in trading Mikko?

Short term, it blew up in their faces spectacularly. Long term, the jury's still out.

Question #2: Did Colorado properly utilize the benefits (cap space, flexibility) of trading Mikko?

(-)Pending UFAs, traded Mittelstadt, Parssinen, Ritchie, Zellers, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th for Coyle, Dufour, Kempf, 5th. The answer is an unequivocal no. Colorado doesn't control the rights of its biggest acquisitions. And those players performed poorly overall.

Everything boils down to Question #2. If the Avalanche had won the Cup this year, this thread wouldn't exist. Alternatively, if MacFarland trades all of those assets for a building block (or two) with team control, the outlook is considerably brighter. Colorado has almost $9M in cap space, with nearly $4M directly from the Mikko trade, so we still have to wait for the other shoe to drop. Whatever form that takes (re-signing, trade, UFA), the Avalanche are operating from a disadvantage. They have clear needs (2C - again) and limited means (assets, cap) to address them. This is why I believe MacFarland should've been fired. Colorado's wounds are self-inflicted, and it will take a stroke of brilliance to heal them.

I'm willing to give CMac another shot to fix it, but this is exaclty how I'm analyzing the situation as well.

 

[Sea Eagles]

We are going to be going into next season stronger than we finished this one. You guys watch him this off season ! I have 100% faith in Kroenke, Sakic and Cmac. Way too much pedigree there.